TF Views

I vote "unused G1 prototype body".

The Deluxe Tank version from 'Cybertron'!

McEnerCron! Yessss.

I always figgered that Unicron was playing with his food when he attacked Cybertron, just to make Galvatron feel bad.

As far as defining the fight goes, many of the variables I list would have to come up in any given scenario, even just a basic gaming session, unless of course you want to get into dice rolls and such. But, even those are intended to represent fluid and dynamic conditions.

Dom
-votes Titaniums Unicron.

Onslaught Six wrote:Sure, Vegeta might win if he sneaks up on Goku while he's taking a shower, but so could I.

I think I saw a doujin once where that scenario turned out a little differently...

Doujin nothin'. Goku's utmost respect for Naked!Vegeta is canon.

Apparently, when one dies in the DBZ universe, one must hand over one's clothes to the gatekeepers of the afterlife.

Gom
-Is rarely on topic these days.

Dominic wrote:But, I doubt the DS could take a punch from Unicron.

A... punch? Wow, that's cute. Unicron the swift, he still believes. Try punching a space-borne object very slowly, and you'll see it move away instead.

I am not cutting an advantage. But, I am assuming that it is not much of a factor unless the Imperials are using really ornate tactics, like parthian shots or something. And, Unicron is shown in "Armada" to have the ability to jump between timelines and dimensions, which I would assume is roughly like warp-jumping. I mis-phrased my earlier comments. Either way, the DS having an FTL is not the advantage you seem to think it is. Unless we assume advanced tactics, I would just as soon take away the FTL from both parties.

FTL is a huge advantage, move away from the enemy, then shoot him; or move away from the enemy, then move into a new vantage; or move away from the enemy, and never come back. Timeline jumping is not the same, it's time machine material.

I was using a composite DS based on episodes 4 and 6. Both were vulnerable to infiltrators and bombing runs.

The second Death Star's vulnerability was due to a strategic miscalculation about the quality of the troops guarding the shield generator's secondary entrance (partly because Luke distracted the Emperor who had been pulling strings down there), and partly due to the Emperor's gambit to leave the station vulnerable by not completing construction to the superstructure. The first DS's only vulnerability was from a kid using the Force to get perfect aim - remember, Red Leader took the same shot and it impacted on the surface. But a completed DS was sealed and not especially vulnerable to bombing.

There as a technician (maybe an officer, I dunno) on the first DS who was ready to evacuate when he figured out what the rebels where doing.

It was an officer, and they analyzed the attack pattern from the small fighters and found a VERY REMOTE weakness. Tarkin recognized that it was incredibly unlikely and chose not to show weakness, thus underestimating the power of the Force - which the Transformers do not have. And that weakness was corrected in the EU after the first Death Star, the exhaust port was shunted to multiple ports too small for a proton torpedo (and keep in mind, the secondary exhaust shaft on the first DS was ray-shielded, so no blasters can penetrate it anyway).

Its primary weapon, while ranged and terrible in effect, still needs to be aimed. And, that brings us to the larger questions of terrain and motive for the combatants.

Aiming was very fast in ROTJ, able to hit large moving targets over and over.

If the DS sneaks up on a sleeping Unicron, then obviously, it has an advantage. But, if Unicron is sneaking up on the Empire, or the Empire does not have the DS in place, the the advantage belongs to Unicron, as it would be able to shrug off the Empire's other attacks. (Remember, Unicron is listed as "it" in the DW sourcebooks.)

What is this fucking "sneak attack" shit? Neither combatant is stealthy or swift at sublight.

Similarly, terrain does matter. The Empire did not fire on the rebels in Episode 4 because there was a planet in the way. Let us assume the DSX can shoot through a large, solid cored, planet and not loose any lethality. But, would the Empire shoot through a planet like Coruscant or Bespin with symbolic or utilitarian resource value?

The DS1 took a day to recharge, and blowing up a gas giant is very difficult compared to a regular planet, so they didn't fire. However, there was no such issue with DS2. They'd blow Bespin to hell in a heartbeat, Coruscant maybe not but if the planet's already partly lost and the Emp was gone, yeah.

Just as the Empire is unlikely to risk destroying the planet it is trying to defend, I would think they might try to capture Unicron is some cases. That would be consistent with Imperial greed and hubris.

Not buying it, they were blowing up usable planets left and right in ANH.

Onslaught Six wrote:That said, I dunno about your Death-Star-Can't-Take-A-Punch-From-Unicron theory. The big real evidence we have for Unicron's raw physical ability is in TFTM, and while he arguably causes a lot of damage, he only ever seems to scrape off some buildings from the surface.

Well, that was awesome! I forgot that Unicron also punched Starscream to death in Armada, didn't really do shit to that planet though.

onslaught86 wrote:Firstly, I love this thread. Not least because Dom is defending Unicron.

Secondly, if we're narrowing down which Death Star it is, we also need to narrow down which Unicron body. There are at least three.

Niiiiice on both counts! I'm still willing to give Unicron the "best of the best" features right up until we get to shit like dimensional and time shifting, that shit don't fly because the 'Cron can then go back and change history so the enemy never existed, and that's a paradox (although Unicron vs Quantum Physics might be funny, where the paradox-canceling nature of the universe squashes him like a big).

138 Scourge wrote:I vote "unused G1 prototype body".

Tubby MacGoo? That'd be hilarious! The Empire would laugh itself to death. How about the Happy Meal version, where he can't move his arms? http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Imag ... nicron.jpg

BWprowl wrote:The Deluxe Tank version from 'Cybertron'!

That'd work better, too small to hit. But it's a tank, so the Death Star blows up the planet it's on.


The reality is that this is a space battle, it happens in space, they go "let's rumble over here" and then they rumble.

I'm finding it very difficult to ascertain what side you're on in this debate, JT. Hmmmm.

So, uh, wait, if we're letting the Death Star have its crew so it can operate, why aren't we letting Unicron have his heralds? I'm not really into the debate myself, but I'd like it to be fair at least! =p

I was arguing that the Empire would hesitate to take out a planet like Bespin as it has those valuable gas mines. The only planet blown up in Episode 4 was Alderann. And, the Empire was willing to take out a moon of Yavin. But, there is nothing, as far as I know, to indicate that either was more than a nice place to live or spend the day. Losing Coruscant would be such an administrative burden that the Empire would only destroy it as an act of desperation. (Of course, that explosion would not damage Unicron, as shown by his resilience in the movie, the weakest offical Unicon.)

Unicron, through dimesion hoping, has demonstrated the ability to fold space and time, as the DS has. In that sense, I would give him something akin to FTL drive.

And, Gomess has a point. If the DS has a crew, Unicron should have heralds. Maybe Ewoks? Those can take out Imperial troops.

The thing to remember with TFs is that they can shift forms as needed. Unicron's heralds have used both solid ammo and energy projection weapons. It would be easy enough for a sweep (or a bug drone, or condor, or....) to fly up and drop a "grenade" down an exhaust shaft. And, that assumes. Unicron could start eating the DS, or simply sucking in attacking ships from the DS and rebuilding them into addition heralds. And, there is also the sheer psychological impact of seeing Unicron. Even putting aside pre-existing knowledge, as shown in issue 75 of the old Marvel run of TF, or Unicron's limited telepathy, just seeing something that big transform is likely to give somebody pause.

We need to come up with gaming stats for both parties and then play this out a couple of times. Anybody have an GURPs books?


Dom
-glad Mega-Maid is not involved.

The thing to remember with TFs is that they can shift forms as needed...just seeing something that big transform is likely to give somebody pause.

I thought we were considering the Darth Star his opponent, why would transformation alone have a huge impact when the Empire's no stranger to it?

Unicron could start eating the DS

JT's argument is that the Death Star could destroy Unicron before he got close. If we're looking at Armada Unicron, I'll argue that his chest cannon could be a viable counter to the DS's main weapon, as demonstrated by the show.

The robot modes' physics are an interesting call. There's really nothing remotely practical about a humanoid robot that big, but it 'is' awesome. Unicron lacks melee weapons, Darth Star's lightsaber would be a threat to him!

JT, go buy a Primus so we can discuss his weapons too.