TF Views

But, Tankor still had his decision making faculties, (free will), before and after the wiping.

The idea is that Megatron needed guys with free will (decision making) in order to fight 5 guys with free will.

Yes, it was a dirty trick to wipe Tankor's mind. But, wanting minions with the ability to make decisions is different from giving them perfect information to base decisions on.

Dom

Dominic wrote:Well, yeah. But, his generals. (the ones he would to spend time on about), had free well. And, it was said somewhere (I think mid season one, during that 3 parter), that the generals were actually the same guys, just tweaked. The idea was that Megatron brought out different aspects of their personality.

When you get to the heart of the matter, Megatron was still suppressing the free will of their original personalities. They didn't choose to become Tankor, Thrust, and Jetstorm. That was forced upon them. And they most certainly were not the same guys if they had their personalities 'tweaked' to the point they had a completely new identity. Then, as Mako Crab pointed out, Megatron even suppresses them as Vehicons by erasing Tankor's memories. And again, they clearly were not exactly happy with what happened while they were Vehicons when they were finally freed.

YOu misunderstand. I mean that nobody ever said, "Wow, the Oracle really is nice and very concerned with the everyday transformer.

I don't really see the difference. There was no reason for that to come up in the context of the show.

Genocide is the wiping out of a culture as much as of a population. Megatron keeping them prison would have done that. And, if I recall, he was trying to set himself up as a new Oracle, which looked to be based on a Eastern dynamic of cyclical death and life, effectively making a return to the source a "death".

If Megatron merged with the sparks to the point they couldn't be restored, I'd agree. But seeing as they could be separated again, I don't. They were still alive on some level albeit in a trapped condition, and that makes all the difference in this situation.

The Oracle presumably wanted the change. Evolution is pretty rough for those living through it. The Oracle's plan had a place for Megatron has well, meaning the Oracle was pretty okay with what happened to the planet and its inhabitants under Megatron.

I wouldn't say the Oracle was "okay" with what Megatron was doing. It may have somewhat allowed him to seize control of Cybertron by not taking action sooner, but it ultimately prevented him from accomplishing his goals by enlisting and aiding the Maximals.

In reviewing some episodes I also remembered it reached out to Botanica to tell her how much pain Cybertron was in (showing her the events of Megatron conquering the planet), in order to motivate her into helping the other Maximals fight. This really shows that the Oracle was not okay with Megatron conquering the planet.

Remember why he resented Megatron though. (Megatron was not techno enough.)

It seemed to be more than that to me. He didn't think either Megatron nor Optmus were cut out to lead anymore as he observed them when he was Tankor.

They served who was in charge. Megatron was in charge.

No, in Obsidian and Stryka's premier episode, Obsidian tells Optimus (after Optimus accuses him of treason): "Megatron is Cybertron. To defend one is to defend the other. And to betray Megtatron... is to invite death."

They don't serve Megatron because he's in charge, they serve him because they see him as part of Cybertron itself.

But, Tankor still had his decision making faculties, (free will), before and after the wiping.

Still doesn't change that Megatron is suppressing Tankor's free will there.

When you get to the heart of the matter, Megatron was still suppressing the free will of their original personalities.

And the Oracle suppressed the free will of the guys it reformatted en masse in that last episode.

All I am arguing is that Megatron needed, and gained, servants with free will.

And, as I noted, wiping memories does not hinder decision making (free will), it just removes information that could be factored into those decisions. (A dirty trick, yes, but not a removal of free will.) Removing free will from his troops would have been idealogically sound,but operationally foolish. Megatron was out numbered and could not, despite all his other advantages, be in more than one place at a time confronting multiple autonomous opponents.

They don't serve Megatron because he's in charge, they serve him because they see him as part of Cybertron itself.

And, they changed their minds pretty quickly when Optimus and co are in charge for a day or so.

Dom

Dominic wrote:

They don't serve Megatron because he's in charge, they serve him because they see him as part of Cybertron itself.

And, they changed their minds pretty quickly when Optimus and co are in charge for a day or so.

Dom

But that's ONLY because Megatron, to the best of everyone's knowledge, was DEAD; he was no longer in existence to be considered Cybertron by them, so they chose the Transformers with the next best claim to the planet - in this case, the Maximals. As soon as Megatron came back to life and power, they changed right back to serving him. Think of it as a sort of Lion King thing; as soon as Mufasa was killed and Simba was presumed dead, the lionesses were forced to accept Scar as the legitimate ruler of the Pride Lands, because there was no other lion in the pride that could make a legitimate claim to the throne. The moment Simba returned, his claim to the throne as Mufasa's son was recognized, and the lionesses turned their back on Scar.

Dominic wrote:

When you get to the heart of the matter, Megatron was still suppressing the free will of their original personalities.

And the Oracle suppressed the free will of the guys it reformatted en masse in that last episode.

. . . What? How? Because it reformatted them into technorganic beings? Maybe they didn't ask for that, but nothing says they can't transfer their sparks into purely technological bodies. And they'd have the free will to do so if they wished.

And, as I noted, wiping memories does not hinder decision making (free will), it just removes information that could be factored into those decisions. (A dirty trick, yes, but not a removal of free will.) Removing free will from his troops would have been idealogically sound,but operationally foolish. Megatron was out numbered and could not, despite all his other advantages, be in more than one place at a time confronting multiple autonomous opponents.

Megatron already had safeguards in place that prevented his Vehicon generals from attacking him, as has been noted already. No problem there. And I'm sorry, but you may see it as merely wiping memories, but in reality Megatron is changing Tankorr's mind for him. Tankorr used his free will when he decided to side with the Maximals, and Megatron took that away.

*wipes Dom's memories*
Dom, you agree with me. You always have. You just forgot that you did. Don't argue.

Wha, huh, lemmee re-read the thread.

I made a pretty good case actually.

Tankor could still make decisions. Megatron just removed the memories of the events that led Tankor to make a decision, leaving Tankor confused. Thus, Tankor made a new decision, (albeit one more favorable to Megatron). But, Megatron just committed (a massive act of) fraud. He did not take away any of Tankor's mental abilities, such as they were.

Free will is the ability to make decisions. But, physical barriers, (like hoving energy rings that sqoosh ya), can stop you from carrying a decision out. And, decisions have to be based on information. Megatron was just, (sensibly), limiting the information available to Tankor in his decision making process.

Tankor could still make decisions though.

Dominic wrote:And the Oracle suppressed the free will of the guys it reformatted en masse in that last episode.

Not the same thing. The Oracle may not have asked if they wanted to be reformatted, but the Oracle didn't actually suppress their free will in doing so. They were still the same 'bots they always were, just with new techno-organic bodies. And nothing is stopping them from choosing to go build new, purely technological bodies if they so desired to go back to that.

All I am arguing is that Megatron needed, and gained, servants with free will.

By suppressing the free will of their original personalities. It doesn't matter if the General's had a degree of free will of their own right when their free will was altered to be that way in the first place.

And, as I noted, wiping memories does not hinder decision making (free will), it just removes information that could be factored into those decisions.

Wiping someone's memory is like changing their mind for them. It's literally taking away their free will if they aren't allowed me make their own choices, what ever that choice may be.

And, they changed their minds pretty quickly when Optimus and co are in charge for a day or so.

Only because they thought Megatron was dead. They quickly return to Megatron's side when it's revealed he was still alive.

Wiping someone's memory is like changing their mind for them. It's literally taking away their free will if they aren't allowed me make their own choices, what ever that choice may be.

Absolutely. That's what I meant when I said they only have the illusion of free-will.

What Dom is trying to get at is Tankorr still had the ability to make decisions, even if those decisions were based on false or incomplete information. This is (almost) the entire goal of some politicians--don't let the sheep find out about this thing or that thing, and then they won't be able to decide based on that. Megatron needed Tankorr to make decisions such as, "Go after these guys this way, or let them go and circle around and kill them that way." He had no business having one of his generals ponder if he's actually doing the right thing or being controlled, and thus made sure that Tankorr couldn't know that.

Onslaught Six wrote:What Dom is trying to get at is Tankorr still had the ability to make decisions, even if those decisions were based on false or incomplete information.

That's not quite what we've been discussing here... Dom is arguing that Tankor being able to make decisions alone gives him free-will. As Mako and I have been saying though, this is only an illusion of free-will. Tankor is already the result of Rhinox's personality being suppressed into serving Megatron against his will. And then on top of it, Megatron maintains control over his generals by being able to literally change their minds for them, preventing them from making decisions he does not approve of. Tankor being able to make decisions is really besides the point when his free-will is being strictly controlled by Megatron.