TF Views

Onslaught Six wrote:It's the fucking Matrix! What else needs to be said about it at this point? Like I said before: We've had 23 years since the Matrix's introduction (or 25 if we're counting the Creation Matrix) to know what it's about and what it's for. It doesn't *need* any explanation.

IDW's G1 universe is not the original G1 universe. The same rules don't automatically apply. For example, we've seen at least one other universe with a different incarnation of the Matrix with Armada/Energon/Cybertron and it was in no way the object it was in G1. As Optimus called it in Armada, it was a "badge of office" but it didn't nearly have the significance that it did in G1, and the other shows really didn't touch on it at all.

The only thing we're ever given indicating the Matrix is the cause of the war is Kup's own word. Since then, nobody has brought it up and it hasn't been relevant. I don't see why you keep bringing this point up when it was referenced one time--a *throwaway* reference, for God's sake--and never brought up again.

Kup's word that no one disputes. And it's hardly a throwaway reference. It's a rather significant detail outlining the cause of the war. It doesn't matter if they only said it once, they aren't going to continuously review how the war started with each other.

But he also could die! That's the point you're missing. Perhaps it's your own bias here, but I think it's perfectly reasonable for them to lose hope when their Fearless Awesome Leader has a very slim chance of survival.

I realize he could have died, but that is besides the point. The point is, as long as he was still alive, they had a shred of hope. It's more than reasonable that they'd be hoping for his recovery, even if it was only a slim chance.

You're going to try and argue mainstream comics...with Dom? Good luck, is all I say.

What's to argue? Not all stories end with a cliche ending, returning to the status quo.

Edit: Double Post

Sparky Prime wrote:IDW's G1 universe is not the original G1 universe. The same rules don't automatically apply. For example, we've seen at least one other universe with a different incarnation of the Matrix with Armada/Energon/Cybertron and it was in no way the object it was in G1. As Optimus called it in Armada, it was a "badge of office" but it didn't nearly have the significance that it did in G1, and the other shows really didn't touch on it at all.

IDW's G1 is not the original G1, but it is *G1,* which ArmEnerTron was most certainly not, and perhaps more importantly--this is IDW G1 as being written by McCarthy, the guy who clearly likes to draw on elements of early G1 fiction to begin with. Thus it's reasonable to assume that McCarthy's Matrix is 'the Matrix.' Once again, Superman principle--you don't need to explain Superman, he just shows up, and you already know everything you need to know, because--being Superman--there are several qualities that he's going to tend to have. Sure, there'll be some exceptions, like Superman: Red Son, but for the most part, if Superman shows up in a story and starts acting like regular old Superman, you can pretty much assume that he's going to be like Superman.

Kup's word that no one disputes. And it's hardly a throwaway reference. It's a rather significant detail outlining the cause of the war. It doesn't matter if they only said it once, they aren't going to continuously review how the war started with each other.

Nobody disputed it because Kup said this to Jazz, and nobody else. Maybe Jazz doesn't even *know* how the war started, so he has no reason to question what Kup said.

The fact is, you keep bringing up this one goddamn line of dialogue and acting like it's provided the basis for the entire series. You're arguing stupid shitty details that mean nothing instead of the actual *good* parts of the series.

I realize he could have died, but that is besides the point. The point is, as long as he was still alive, they had a shred of hope. It's more than reasonable that they'd be hoping for his recovery, even if it was only a slim chance.[/qote]

How do you know what their hope levels are like? You've never been in that situation, so you have no idea.

What's to argue? Not all stories end with a cliche ending, returning to the status quo.

Y'know what, I'm just not even going to bother continuing this argument. This is clearly never going to resolve itself, so I'm going to move on.

IDW's G1 universe is not the original G1 universe. The same rules don't automatically apply. For example, we've seen at least one other universe with a different incarnation of the Matrix with Armada/Energon/Cybertron and it was in no way the object it was in G1. As Optimus called it in Armada, it was a "badge of office" but it didn't nearly have the significance that it did in G1, and the other shows really didn't touch on it at all.

The fact it is a "badge of office" is what makes it important. Again, Matrix=Jerusalem.

Kup tells us Megatron apparently wanted to take the Matrix from the start of the war, and I don't see any reason why he wouldn't until now.

Kup may well just be quoting Megatron's publicly stated goals. Capturing the Matrix is a good stated goal in terms of posturing. (And, we know that Megatron is a demagogue, which is consistent with "Megatron: Origins", meaning he would want a subject he could make a stirring speech about.

But, there is a difference between a stated goal and an operational one. Have you read "1984"? (Yes, it is over-rated trash, but there is a good example of what I am talking about in that book.) The state of Oceana, (kindasorta the UK, but with some more land) says it wants to wipe-out Eurasia (Russia, China and some other states). But, Oceana does not *really* want to beat Eurasia because that would deprive them of a nice other, and fodder for rousing speeches. The same idea applies to Hamas, which did well in the Palestinian elections a few years ago. They won an election, and now they have to deliver on their revolutionary promises. When they were just revolutionaries, they had an excuse not to produce anything. Now, they have to produce/deliver.

In other words, Megatron gives fiery speeches about wanting the Matrix, but actually capturing it may not have been the best move as it deprived him of a politically viable means to say "the Autobots are our enemies, and are worth attacking". Hell, Megatron pretty much said the Decepticons are intended to be thugs, and that he expects violence from within-that he is unlikely to survive. That is explicitly in issue 11.

When talking to Jazz, Kup (who likely was not in on Megatron's political planning) quotes what he knows about Megatron's publicly stated goals.



And, along the lines of what O6 said, the Matrix is clearly important in context. Do you really need a character to info-dump on panel and say that the Matrix if veryveryveryveryvery important, and how it is so very important?

The point is, as long as he was still alive, they had a shred of hope. It's more than reasonable that they'd be hoping for his recovery, even if it was only a slim chance.

There is a difference between hoping for the best, and *expecting* it. And, "a shred" of hope is not much at all.

From the Decepticon perspective, the Autobots are standed with limited resources, making them hardly worth the effort to chase down. From the Autobot perspective, they are stranded with limited resources, a more than half-dead leader, and no expectation that there are many more, (if any), of them alive elsewhere. How does that balance against "a shred" of hope?

That's debatable. There are plenty of comic stories where the "good guys" don't exactly win and the status quo isn't restored to the way it was. Marvel's "Civil War" for example.

I have to wonder how much of "Civil War" will stick. Lessee, Spidey has a secret ID again. The Heroes are coming together, and will likely re-unite to fight Osborn.

Of course, the point of my comment, (that you responded to) was not that "comix alwayz go bak 2 teh way tehy wuz", but that in the context of AHM, nobody is going to be saying "he, we are in a comic, so in a few pages we can expect.....", and likely would consider being stranded sans resources to be a pretty daunting prospect, shreds of hope be damned.

The irony is that you are saying not all stories end in cliche, when AHM is one of the least cliched TF comics around.


Dom
-waiting for issue 12.

Onslaught Six wrote:Thus it's reasonable to assume that McCarthy's Matrix is 'the Matrix.'

I don't agree. It's still a different universe than G1 was. The same rules don't automatically apply.

Nobody disputed it because Kup said this to Jazz, and nobody else. Maybe Jazz doesn't even *know* how the war started, so he has no reason to question what Kup said.

When they've been at war for centuries, I doubt there are many Transformers who don't know how it started. But either way, Jazz isn't the type to be in the dark on such matters.

The fact is, you keep bringing up this one goddamn line of dialogue and acting like it's provided the basis for the entire series. You're arguing stupid shitty details that mean nothing instead of the actual *good* parts of the series.

You can't just throw out significant details like this and not expect it to cause ripples through not only this story but the continuity. No matter how much you seem to want to, you can't just ignore it when a character says something important like this that really impacts what the entire war has been about.

How do you know what their hope levels are like? You've never been in that situation, so you have no idea.

How do you know I haven't? I mean, I haven't but still, you don't know that, until now, but that in no way means I have no idea. It is actually a common story to tell. When you don't have much to hope for, you hope for anything that's good news. Prime still being alive is reason to hope for his recovery.

Dominic wrote:The fact it is a "badge of office" is what makes it important. Again, Matrix=Jerusalem.

I'm not denying the Matrix has a level of importance, what I'm saying is it isn't necessarily as important as you make it seem and Badge of office =/= holy object.

Kup may well just be quoting Megatron's publicly stated goals. Capturing the Matrix is a good stated goal in terms of posturing.

Kup isn't quoting goals, he's remembering how the war started in the first place to explain why Megs took the Matrix. Yet we've never seen Megatron talk about the Matrix. We've never seen him even mention the Matrix. He's had opportunities to take it before and didn't. So the whole idea of him wanting the Matrix comes out of no where.

There is a difference between hoping for the best, and *expecting* it. And, "a shred" of hope is not much at all.

I disagree. When you don't have much to hope for, you hope for what you can.

I have to wonder how much of "Civil War" will stick. Lessee, Spidey has a secret ID again. The Heroes are coming together, and will likely re-unite to fight Osborn.

They've already reversed some of the Secret ID thing with Spidey. He's revealed himself to the Avengers and Fantastic Four and the magic spell was undone for them. And the heroes are still frayed. None of them like Osborn in charge, but we've still got heroes on opposite sides of the law. Even if they do come together to take Osborn down, they've still got that law.

The irony is that you are saying not all stories end in cliche, when AHM is one of the least cliched TF comics around.

Again, I don't agree. I see it as one of the most cliche TF stories, ever.

I am note sure how AHM is a cliche, or at least more a cliche than a good amount of everythimg else the franchises has produced the last few years. If nothing else, I do not recall too many "established member of the team is a traitor" plots where the traitor is a member of the original cast. And, I am thinking AHM is going to stick.


As far as the importance of the Matrix goes, there are two ways to approach it.

Externally, it makes sense for us (the readers) to assume that some things about the property will carry over. While the particulars may change, "Transformers" will usually have Autobots and Decepticons, and they will be from Cybertron. The Matrix, if it shows up, will be "kind of important". Why is it unreasonable to assume that McCarthy/IDW is writing with the assumption that the Matrix is important in context?

Internally, from inside the story, the Matrix is clearly important. A politically important object, say a political theorist's cadaver or a city that was renamed for a tyrant, need not be "sacred" in the religious sense. (Yes, I know Marxism did not completely stomp out the instinct to worship, even among adherents. And, that little town on the Volga also had valuable industrial facilities, but you get the idea. Heck, Stalingrad is still politically resonant.) A badge of office need not be strictly religious, any more than it actually needs to really contain great cosmic power, in order to hold enormous symbolic or political value. And, it might be a good idea to cover up the loss of such an object to preserve some degree of morale. (This would be especially important when morale is low to begin with.)


I would agree that regardless of the ignorance of most Autobots, Jazz would have some command and understanding of history. Buy, all he or Kup would know about would be Megatron's stated goals. Even if the Autobots had a spy in the Decepticons, that spy would need to be one of the guys Megatron would have "closed door" meetings with to get more detailed information.

Megatron could have declared his intent to capture the Matrix after the events of "Megatron: Origin". He was still relatively unknown by the end of that story, and the Decepticons were still small potatoes.


As far as hope goes, there is a big difference between hope and expectations. I have many hopes. Some of them are possible, but they are still unlikely. I *might* randomly acquire a huge sum of money. There is no element of natural law that says I cannot. But, that is unlikely, so I do no not expect it. Similarly, the Autobots not standing around saying "golly gee whiz, I hope Prime dies and we are stranded here forever" does not mean that most of them are not thinking "it would be nice if things got better, but they probably ain't".

Look at it this way, I am hoping for a speedy economic recovery. Hell, I would settle for single digit unemployment. But, no reasonable person expects it anytime soon.



Heroes being on two sides of the law goes back to 80s Marvel.


Dom

Dominic wrote:I am note sure how AHM is a cliche, or at least more a cliche than a good amount of everythimg else the franchises has produced the last few years. If nothing else, I do not recall too many "established member of the team is a traitor" plots where the traitor is a member of the original cast. And, I am thinking AHM is going to stick.

I've already said one way of how I believe it's a cliche. Speaking of traitors, Mirage was actually one in Dreamwave's comics and we're even given the cliche that Mirage could be the traitor again in this comic. And I don't see it sticking very long personally.

Why is it unreasonable to assume that McCarthy/IDW is writing with the assumption that the Matrix is important in context?

Again, I'm not saying the Matrix isn't important but rather I'm questioning how important it is in this context. Obviously the Autobots care that Megatron stole it, but they don't exactly seem overly concerned about at the same time. Really, the only thing they appear to be concerned with is keeping the rest of the Autobots from finding out Megs has it. But so what? We aren't given any explanation at all and Megatron really doesn't seem to have any use for it.

Megatron could have declared his intent to capture the Matrix after the events of "Megatron: Origin". He was still relatively unknown by the end of that story, and the Decepticons were still small potatoes.

That would still conflict with the whole idea of Megatron starting the war over the Matrix. Clearly, that wasn't the case in "Megatron: Origin" which actually was the start of the war. And I really wouldn't say the Decepticons were "small potatoes" at the end of that story. They succeeded in smashing up Sentinel Prime and repelling the military force (the Autobots) of the planet.

As far as hope goes, there is a big difference between hope and expectations.

Who's talking about expectations? They're going to be hoping for Optimus to recover, regardless of what they expect.

Heroes being on two sides of the law goes back to 80s Marvel.

Not like this. Before it was more a case of misunderstood/misrepresented heroes. Now there actually is a law in the Marvel universe saying no mysterious unlicensed super heroes, and anyone who falls into that category is hunted down by those on the "right" side of the law.

Clearly, the Matrix *is* that important in contexr. This is arguably a bigger cliche than anything else. Megatron having the Matrix is clearly an issue. When Jazz and Kup are talking, they are very worried about what would happen if Prime died when Megatron had the Matrix. Is it really needed for the characters to be walking around, like say...80s Marvel Claremont characters, constantly talking/thinking about how important the Matrix is?

Kup clearly agrees with Jazz (a de facto morale officer) that it is morally and practically worth hiding the truth from the Autobots, as he does not saul otherwise.

The Matrix being *that* important makes it worth it for Megatron to capture. Megatron and the others beating Sentinel Prime and the rest of a more or less peace-time military/police (TF does not seem to make a disinction) force is not that impressive. The start of the war would arguably not have been until later. When did the Nazis take over Germany? When did the "take over" end and become replaced with "taken over"?

And, in real life, the reason for the discrepancy is that IDW' wanted to change a comic that was not selling. Consistency would be secondary on that case.

My local store is under ordering everything. The owner is not even ordering enough to put on shelves, despite the movie. I can check the secondary store I go to, as their numbers are accessible if one is discreet.


Dom

Anyone else think it's funny that AHM (proper) ends on the same day ROTF comes out?

Dominic wrote:Clearly, the Matrix *is* that important in contexr.

Are you actually reading what I'm saying? I'm not saying the Matrix isn't important. It's how important it is I'm questioning. You keep saying it's a symbol for Megatron winning. But is it? Clearly Optimus doesn't have to have it to be the Autobot leader. Clearly the Autobots are capable of fighting the Decepticons without it. Megatron succeeded in temporarily vanquishing them, but he obviously hasn't conquered them just because he took the Matrix. So what's the point of taking it?

Megatron and the others beating Sentinel Prime and the rest of a more or less peace-time military/police (TF does not seem to make a disinction) force is not that impressive. The start of the war would arguably not have been until later.

For a bunch of rag-tag, low class thugs to defeat a professionally trained army, that is impressive. Certainly the Autobots were shocked. And Megatron conquering that one city was obviously just the beginning, so I don't see why that wouldn't be seen as the start of the war.