TF Views

But romance within a context of war- and bereft of all the 'domestic' clichés you just listed- would presumably be appropriate and interesting, right?

All points about TF not being a 'romantic' franchise taken, of course, but I don't see that as a reason why it shouldn't become one.

In terms of emotional depth, My Little Pony seems to have evolved tremendously since the 80s. TF? Not so much. But if one Hasbro brand can change to keep up with reality, so can another.

Prowl raises a good point about what Dom would *rather* see, but that's dangerous territory, as I've learned. Whenever a new story comes out set on Earth someone always contacts me to tell me I have to like it because it's Everything I Want From TF. =p So I think Dom is well within his rights to not proffer an alternative, interesting as it'd be to hear one.

And, the laziest man on this board shames us by doing the obvious thing.....

I resemble that remark!

You did. I would be interested in hearing Robert's extended comments on this, and other things in the book. My biggest over-all complaint about "More Than Meets The Eye" is that it seems to be aimless and vapid. (This is in addition to my complaints about the art and the Chromedome/Rewind thing specifically.) When Roberts does leave, his comments might be worth seeking out.

I'm sure they will be, and I'm going to actually follow up on it. (Unlike McCarthy, who seems like he has better things to do these days, I suspect Roberts will hang around even after his run is over, like Roche tends to do.)

But, the guys who deviated by pitching high and not adhering to at least some TF cliches (particularly the more shallow and easy to identify stuff) got in hot water with fans. Guys like McCarthy and Costa are solid writers, but they pitched over fans heads and were called out for it.

I think part of it is that Roberts is, in some ways, pitching to a different kind of TF audience--the audience who has seen it all happen before. I can already think of a handful of things that MTMTE has done that no other TF story period has done before, and that's part of the reason I keep watching it. Roberts may be "aimlessly wandering," and sometimes even I wonder what the actual point is going to come to (if ever?), but the reason I keep coming back every month is that things are happening and they're always things that I haven't seen happen in TF before.

Possibly. But I just can't picture Chromedome and Rewind taking a walk, or going on a date, or discussing the budget, or meeting the family, or any other typical couple activities. None of that makes any sense to me. Having Rewind call Chromedome "Domey" honestly made me cringe a bit. Cute little nicknames are another thing I just can't picture two Transformers doing.

And yet we already know, right there in the text, that Chromedome's name IS a "cute little nickname." In Spotlight Trailcutter, Tailgate points out that Chromedome, Brainstorm and Highbrow all have names that "are heads," and Chromedome points out that they're nicknames, because they used to work together.

Most of those "typical couple" things don't exactly sound like things *any* Transformer would do, regardless of gender or orientation. I can't see Chromedome and Rewind doing any of those things either.
MTMTE and RID's whole "peacetime" motif has really changed the way TFs interact with each other, though--you can't have most of those things happen in G1 because it's not like two Autobots can openly walk the streets without being slaughtered by dinosaurs that turn into cassette tapes.

I tend to lean towards "no, I don't want to see romance between Transformers". I think mostly the whole Chromedome/Rewind thing was fairly tasteful and restrained, up until the end anyway, so it mostly worked. I'm not sure Roberts could have taken it much futher though.

I'm not sure he would want to. The point of the story was obviously about their emotional connection, and Roberts established it well. I'm confident in assuming the big point was Rewind's sacrifice--he sends himself to certain doom to stop Overlord and save the entire Lost Light crew, but more importantly, Chromedome.

And there’s a thing: How are these ‘fans’ ever going to make that progress if the fiction and writing they’re primarily taking in (in this case, Transformers comics) never illustrates genuine emotional connections? You say you want the fans to progress, to move on from 80’s-style storytelling and adherence to preset themes and ideas, but then you take issue with the comics themselves making that jump, seemingly purely on the basis of “It’s Transformers and Transformers shouldn’t have relationships in it” which is in itself a rather stunted view.

Honestly, the progress of those fans is on them. My complaint is that they are using fiction (TF or otherwise) to get vicarious connection because they are too lazy or inept to go out and meet their own damned people. And, hey, that is on them. But, I am not interested in the comics they form that connection with.

Part of it is that I think that TF is better suited to handling other ideas. But, part of it is I would rather not see comics panding to the above mentioned fans because I would prefer to be reading better comics.

A good question would be *why* don’t you want to read stories that include emotional closeness and relationship dynamics?

I do not want to be reading comics that are pandering to emotional stunties. (I can see how you misunderstood what I said though.)

How* does it come across as forced, or as pandering? Do you actually have anything to back that idea up, or is your distaste for the portrayal of the relationship based almost entirely on a ‘gut feeling’ that you just ‘have’ about it? Especially since, as we’ve outlined numerous times before, the relationship actually has a ton of stuff written into it that ties into the larger concepts and ideas of the series as a whole. It’s hardly just inconsequential fanservice that Roberts threw in.

A big problem is that it ties in with a series that is more or less about nothing. It is just one more thing in a book about "transformers doin' stuffs". I am willing to wait for Roberts' expanded comments after he leaves the book. And, maybe I will reconsider.

In terms of emotional depth, My Little Pony seems to have evolved tremendously since the 80s. TF? Not so much. But if one Hasbro brand can change to keep up with reality, so can another.

How can you say that TF has not evolved? The good:bad ratio of the content has shifted significantly over the years. A TF comic is more likely to be pitched higher now than in the past. And, as JT has pointed out, even TF:Prime tries (albeit with little success) to aim a bit higher. (MLP has increased its profile. That I will agree on. But, then again, so has TF.)

Prowl raises a good point about what Dom would *rather* see, but that's dangerous territory, as I've learned. Whenever a new story comes out set on Earth someone always contacts me to tell me I have to like it because it's Everything I Want From TF. =p So I think Dom is well within his rights to not proffer an alternative, interesting as it'd be to hear one.

Saying that "TF needs to be set on Earth in order to be good" is just as limiting and arbritrary as most any other "TF should...." statement.

Over all, I am pretty happy with what IDW is doing. They have not been perfect over the last 8 or so years. Feckless editing is as much an issue for them as for any other company. But, over all, they have been doing a good job.

I resemble that remark!

Hey, I have my lazy moments as well. (And, I work for the state, so "lazy" is not necessarily an insult.)

I'm sure they will be, and I'm going to actually follow up on it. (Unlike McCarthy, who seems like he has better things to do these days, I suspect Roberts will hang around even after his run is over, like Roche tends to do.)

Roche and Roberts are "guys who write comics". (They may prove to be "guys who write Transformers comics". It is too early to tell right now.) McCarthy is a "guy who happens to have written some comics". The man travels and teaches swing dancing. Comics are only part of his professional life.

Right now, "More Than Meets The Eye" is too aimless for me to give it the benefit of the doubt regarding the pandering/shipping. I am less interested in it breaking new ground if it is not likely to go anywhere worth while.


Dom
-should probably think about studying....

How can you say that TF has not evolved? The good:bad ratio of the content has shifted significantly over the years.

Increase in quality =/= Evolution of emotional depth
Besides which, I didn't say it hadn't evolved; I just said MLP had evolved more.

Saying that "TF needs to be set on Earth in order to be good" is just as limiting and arbritrary as most any other "TF should...." statement.

And again, I don't say this either. I just happen to prefer TF stories set in a real-world context because it feels truer to the basic, eternal concept of the franchise. Also I'm not really into spaceship drama.

But see, even there, there's a reason beyond a gut feeling. "Robots in Disguise" is an established element of the franchise, but one that I feel has been marginalised. Your dislike for ChromeWind though, Dom, seems based entirely on assumptions. Honestly, I'll point up again that I really see no difference between this relationship and... I dunno, Hot Rod x Arcee. Whatever. It's all just writers trying to inject romance into an otherwise unromantic series in an attempt to engage new parts of the audience.

Regarding comics "going somewhere," does this ever happen? Considering the medium, do conclusions even really occur? And if you're not talking about a resolute ending to the story, then "going somewhere" becomes an even more vague phrase. Do you just mean, "I'm not going to invest time in this comic unless it does stuff I like"? =p

I'd like to take a more strength-based approach anyway, any of you care to bring up some emotionally deep moments from any past TF stuff?

Bit of an abstract one, but I still get the sads when Ironhide's tech spec describes him as "emotionally fragile".

Oh, and The Girl Who Loved Powerglide was a triumph of kids' cartooning and I'll hear nothing said against it. One of the few G1 episodes I'll rewatch SOLELY on the basis of its emotional ballsiness. So much fun.

Gomess wrote:But romance within a context of war- and bereft of all the 'domestic' clichés you just listed- would presumably be appropriate and interesting, right?

I'd have to see an example to judge. But without all of the domestic issues, and physical attraction issues, we're left with stories that could be told just as effectively through friendship. Chromedome and Rewind would work just as well as two old and dear friends as they did the way Roberts wrote them. In fact, remove a few lines of dialogue, and that's what you'd have.

Something like Silverbolt and Blackarachnia could work, and by that I mean a relationship in the midst of a war that is used primarily to facilitate the plot. That particular storyline worked, despite the absurdity of the situation, because Silverbolt was already a character with some over the top characteristics. He was Adam West playing Batman, so his chivalry and declarations of feeling fit his character. They were absurd and cringeworthy, but they were meant to be on a certain level. Blackarachnia using those feelings to manipulate him fit her character. That storyline wouldn't have worked with any of the other characters in the show. Of course they did develop genuine feelings for each other, but their relationship still drove plots. It was a means to an end, not an in-depth exploration of romance in wartime. And I wouldn't want it to be.

Again, that's not really what I'm looking for with Transformers. I get that you and some others are, but I would go elsewhere for that type of storytelling, and do.

andersonh1 wrote:But without all of the domestic issues, and physical attraction issues, we're left with stories that could be told just as effectively through friendship.

I think again we just have different definitions of "romance" here, but this thread would get awful complicated if we all took turns to outline our personal opinions on the matter.

andersonh1 wrote:Again, that's not really what I'm looking for with Transformers. I get that you and some others are, but I would go elsewhere for that type of storytelling, and do.

I'm really not. I don't "look for" anything with Transformers. But I also believe that it would benefit from a bit more emotional courage, especially in the area of friendship and love. Most "boys fiction" would.

Dominic wrote:I do not want to be reading comics that are pandering to emotional stunties. (I can see how you misunderstood what I said though.)

My point was that readers who have distaste for and recoil at the slightest mention of emotional depth and intensity in their fiction are every bit as emotionally stunted as those who use said fiction as their sole conduit for those emotions.

Your dislike for the romantic and emotional elements of MTMTE seems to hinge entirely on the fact that other people out there happen to like them.

Gomess wrote:I'm really not. I don't "look for" anything with Transformers. But I also believe that it would benefit from a bit more emotional courage, especially in the area of friendship and love. Most "boys fiction" would.

This leads into the point you made earlier about MLP: How come it gets to progress to a series that contains a whole spectrum of emotional intensity, dramatic action scenes, light-hearted humor, and surprisingly astute examinations of different facilitations of mental breakdowns, all to breakout success, while TF (and other such "boys' fiction") has its audience members like Anderson here assert that it's best if it just stays as 'war stories' and soldiers shooting each other?

As a detour in that vein about so-called "boys' fiction": All of the letters on the mail page of the latest issue of MTMTE came from female readers. I'm not going to draw any conclusions from that unless you other participants in this enjoyable little debate feel it's worth examining.

Gomess wrote:I'm really not. I don't "look for" anything with Transformers. But I also believe that it would benefit from a bit more emotional courage, especially in the area of friendship and love. Most "boys fiction" would.

I don't really disagree. There's certainly a place for that. As you say, it's problematic in a thread like this to dig too deep into all the various concepts of romance and love, but there are certainly various levels of both, and not all love involves romance or sex, by any means.

One of my favorite scenes in the latest issue of RID was Skybyte's exchange with Jazz, where Skybyte is unwilling to leave Jazz to fight on his own. He expresses loyalty to him and friendship, and there should be more of that. If these characters are willing to fight and die for each other, let's have a reason why. Let the characters express how they feel. Make the relationships meaningful. That type of emotional exchange I'm all for, and it's something I would enjoy seeing a lot more of.

Maybe that's what you're talking about, I don't know. We might not be all that far apart. I just don't want to see something like Chromedome sitting at home, wondering just when Rewind is going to make it back from the front lines! That's the type of "war romance" the franchise needs to avoid!

See Anderson, I really think we are on a similar wavelength. TF just needs more love, man. Platonic or otherwise. But I think I just don't have this gut reaction you do to the idea of "romantic relationship" meaning one person sat at home just worrying about the other. Come on, man. They'd both be on the frontlines, so clichés like that are irrelevant.

BWprowl wrote:All of the letters on the mail page of the latest issue of MTMTE came from female readers. I'm not going to draw any conclusions from that unless you other participants in this enjoyable little debate feel it's worth examining.

TF has been much more resistant to engaging female fans than MLP has been with engaging male ones. And it might sound sexist at first, but yeah, introducing romance will help TF reach more girls. It'll also help introduce more boys. Of course, taking TF back to its "puzzle toy with personality" roots would help too. I'm in favour of anything which will get the franchise away from its gender binary past.

Dammit, I am trying to think about studying!

Increase in quality =/= Evolution of emotional depth
Besides which, I didn't say it hadn't evolved; I just said MLP had evolved more.

Not sure if MLP has evolved more simply because I am not that familiar with MLP. (I recall seeing a few episodes at a the baby-sitter's house as a kid, as the baby-sitter had a daughter. But, I will be damned if I recall the show itself.)

Would you rather see a lower quality story with emotional depth? Even assuming that could happen, why would you bother with the low quality story?

And again, I don't say this either. I just happen to prefer TF stories set in a real-world context because it feels truer to the basic, eternal concept of the franchise. Also I'm not really into spaceship drama.

Okay, then why should TF be stuck with "robots in disguise?

It's all just writers trying to inject romance into an otherwise unromantic series in an attempt to engage new parts of the audience.

It is a question of which parts of the audience are being engaged and rewarded though. In the case of HotRod and Arcee, the target was little girls who had to sit through the movie with their brothers and families. In the case of Chromedome and Rewind, it is (probably) the kind of fan that I do not want to see more of getting rewarded. (Again, I would rather wait for Roberts' comments, rather than continuously restating my position on this question.)

Regarding comics "going somewhere," does this ever happen? Considering the medium, do conclusions even really occur? And if you're not talking about a resolute ending to the story, then "going somewhere" becomes an even more vague phrase.

Real endings in comics are rare. That much is true. (Many comic fans seem to have an issue with endings and change.) But, generally, there is some sense of finality at the end of a writer's time on a book. However, "Transformers" has generally had a linear story. (Ironically, the original basis for this was at least partly Hasbro pushing new product with the book.) And, IDW has generally been following this rule.

I'd like to take a more strength-based approach anyway, any of you care to bring up some emotionally deep moments from any past TF stuff?

I did this at the begining of the thread. But, hey, I can expound a bit more.....

-Auto Berzerk: Good depiction of loyalty and paranoia. I liked Prime having to make hard decisions and the Autobots trying to help Red Alert. Starscream gets to shine by virtue of being a complete arse.

-Burden Hardest To Bear: Rodimus is overcome with the burdens of leadership and immortality. Dude, this was deep stuff.

-Ultimate Doom: The Autobots reactions to seeing Cybertron again and their retreat sequence was solidly done. (This is a good example of "low quality writing with emotional depth".)

-More than Meets the Eye: The first episode had its share of good moments, as well as some really bad writing and animation. The last battle of part 3 (which could have been the last battle of the series) had its emotional moments. How many time did Optimus Prime raise his voice over the course of the series? The Autobots being honestly suprised that Mirage saved the day struck me even as a kid.

-Man of Iron: Too many good moments to list.

-Warrior School: Ratchet's fortitude and such....

-Crisis of Command: Optimus has to make military decisions. (And, in contrast to most similar examples throughout the franchise, chooses not to create a reace of super warrior robots.)

-Transmutate: This episode makes Silverbolt cool. (Silverbolt's distaste for how Optimus and Rhinox want to deal with Transmutate is viscerally striking.)

-Fortress: Furman gave the Minicons full emotional range in the middle of the Armada comic, complete with showing a bond between Minicons and humans. (Sparkplug is consistently portrayed this way. At one point, Furman had him tell the Autobots that he and the other Minicons would risk striking out on their own if the Autobots did not give them more freedom.)

-All Megatron: Skywarp and Thundercracker had a few emotional scenes. Ironhide's suspicion about, and later beating of, Mirage were good depictions of primal emotion. "Spotlight: Jazz" was about hope and despair. (There is even a range of depicted reactions among the Autobots in a few of the group shots.)

-Police Action: The breakdown of the human/Autobot alliance is covered both intellectually and emotionally. (IDW Spike may be a thug. But, he is a complexly written and depicted thug.)

Dammit, I am trying to think about studying!

Increase in quality =/= Evolution of emotional depth
Besides which, I didn't say it hadn't evolved; I just said MLP had evolved more.

Not sure if MLP has evolved more simply because I am not that familiar with MLP. (I recall seeing a few episodes at a the baby-sitter's house as a kid, as the baby-sitter had a daughter. But, I will be damned if I recall the show itself.)

Would you rather see a lower quality story with emotional depth? Even assuming that could happen, why would you bother with the low quality story?

And again, I don't say this either. I just happen to prefer TF stories set in a real-world context because it feels truer to the basic, eternal concept of the franchise. Also I'm not really into spaceship drama.

Okay, then why should TF be stuck with "robots in disguise?

It's all just writers trying to inject romance into an otherwise unromantic series in an attempt to engage new parts of the audience.

And....

Your dislike for the romantic and emotional elements of MTMTE seems to hinge entirely on the fact that other people out there happen to like them.

It is a question of which parts of the audience are being engaged and rewarded though. In the case of HotRod and Arcee, the target was little girls who had to sit through the movie with their brothers and families. In the case of Chromedome and Rewind, it is (probably) the kind of fan that I do not want to see more of getting rewarded.

(Again, I would rather wait for Roberts' comments, rather than continuously restating my position on this question. "I do not like comics that reward certain members of the fandom." Been said how many fucking times?)

Regarding comics "going somewhere," does this ever happen? Considering the medium, do conclusions even really occur? And if you're not talking about a resolute ending to the story, then "going somewhere" becomes an even more vague phrase.

Real endings in comics are rare. That much is true. (Many comic fans seem to have an issue with endings and change.) But, generally, there is some sense of finality at the end of a writer's time on a book. However, "Transformers" has generally had a linear story. (Ironically, the original basis for this was at least partly Hasbro pushing new product with the book.) And, IDW has generally been following this rule.

I'd like to take a more strength-based approach anyway, any of you care to bring up some emotionally deep moments from any past TF stuff?

I did this at the begining of the thread. But, hey, I can expound a bit more.....

-Auto Berzerk: Good depiction of loyalty and paranoia. I liked Prime having to make hard decisions and the Autobots trying to help Red Alert. Starscream gets to shine by virtue of being a complete arse.

-Burden Hardest To Bear: Rodimus is overcome with the burdens of leadership and immortality. Dude, this was deep stuff.

-Ultimate Doom: The Autobots reactions to seeing Cybertron again and their retreat sequence was solidly done. (This is a good example of "low quality writing with emotional depth".)

-More than Meets the Eye: The first episode had its share of good moments, as well as some really bad writing and animation. The last battle of part 3 (which could have been the last battle of the series) had its emotional moments. How many time did Optimus Prime raise his voice over the course of the series? The Autobots being honestly suprised that Mirage saved the day struck me even as a kid.

-Man of Iron: Too many good moments to list.

-Warrior School: Ratchet's fortitude and such....

-Crisis of Command: Optimus has to make military decisions. (And, in contrast to most similar examples throughout the franchise, chooses not to create a reace of super warrior robots.)

-Transmutate: This episode makes Silverbolt cool. (Silverbolt's distaste for how Optimus and Rhinox want to deal with Transmutate is viscerally striking.)

-Fortress: Furman gave the Minicons full emotional range in the middle of the Armada comic, complete with showing a bond between Minicons and humans. (Sparkplug is consistently portrayed this way. At one point, Furman had him tell the Autobots that he and the other Minicons would risk striking out on their own if the Autobots did not give them more freedom.)

-All Megatron: Skywarp and Thundercracker had a few emotional scenes. Ironhide's suspicion about, and later beating of, Mirage were good depictions of primal emotion. "Spotlight: Jazz" was about hope and despair. (There is even a range of depicted reactions among the Autobots in a few of the group shots.)

-Police Action: The breakdown of the human/Autobot alliance is covered both intellectually and emotionally. (IDW Spike may be a thug. But, he is a complexly written and depicted thug and his emotional motives are not beyond the understanding of most people.)


Dom
-off to study (and means it this time.)