TF Views

Shockwave wrote:I agree with Dom, he could have been "directing" his troops in where to go and what to do. Any good manager/supervisor (read: Leader) knows that occasionally your troops are gonna need some downtime. And maybe after 4 years of infiltrating an alien culture, mining for energon, and fighting Autobots, they needed a break. And if that's the case, why would Megatron waste the time and Energon to find some "more important planet" just to give his troops some downtime?

Of course Megatron is going to be giving them some direction. We do see him issuing a few orders in the story. But what downtime? He still basically had them conquering the planet, but he totally abandoned their Infiltration Protocol and any sense of what interest Earth actually held for them, making the Decepticon presence there appear rather pointless and under organized. He lead those Decepticons on a downward spiral until they starting actually fighting each other which as it turns out apparently was what he was actually planning all along in order to remold them. What kind of leader leads his army to self destruct like that? And how exactly is that supposed to accomplish remolding the Decepticon army from all of their infighting and dissent into "perfectly controlled peace through unparalleled strength"? All of this going on on a planet with a valuable and extremely rare form of Energon. Again leading back to my question, why on Earth? If his plan was to get them to fight each other in order to somehow remold the army, why not a planet that's more... disposable, with out the rare Energon?

So where exactly would you want them to be then? Lithone? Char? Nebulos? None of those planets would make any more sense than Earth. Besides, I think what he wants is a Decepticon army that's very Machiavielian. Survival of the fittest and all that. He even said so to Starscream when he told Starscream that he would eventually lead the Decepticons having crushed Megatron beneath his heel.

The last time Megatron left those standard protocols, it caused some controversy among his own troops, yet here there is nothing.

The reason for having the 6 stages, (war with the Autobots), no longer applies here. There is no reason to hold to the 6 step plan when the reason for that plan is firmly past tense.

What about the rest of the Decepticon army? Clearly they were not able to eliminate the rest of the Autobot army on the various other planets, installations and ships and probably could have used the support to take out any survivors.

It is made clear by Starscream's comments in issue 12 that the Decepticons are more or less winning everywhere they fight. And, we see in "Spotlight: Metroplex" that even guys like Sixshot are kind of hurting for things to do, as evidenced by him chasing the Throttlebots around. It is more a question of finding, rather than killing, the remaining Autobots, who would be few and far between at that point.

Maybe the Decepticons used the ore-13 to fuel the war effort elsewhere? It would have been a nice compliment to having the codes they got from Sunstreaker.

Again, just being on Earth is not an explanation for this. They've been there for 4 years, so it isn't like Earth is a new target. It's just the tactics that have suddenly changed, but this has absolutely no explanation in this story for it.

Megatron just needs to give the Decepticon something to do. The fact that Earth, and the people on it, is nearby is justification enough. Megatron just needs to stall for time. Any other possible species will be there later. Megatron is not going to say "No, wait, lets go get those guys over there", when he can just say, "Have your party right here."

Think about it this way, when the Soviets took Berlin, did the commanders say, "No, wait, there are more worth foes to fight over there"? No. They said, "Okay boys, have a party in Berlin with the women and children."

AHM showed the Decepticons were slowly spiraling out of Megatron's control due to Earth being an insufficient challenge for them.

Yes, AHM showed Megatron screwing up. Why is this such a bad thing? Does the guy whose name is in the title have to be super duper awesome master-mind guy?

He lead those Decepticons on a downward spiral until they starting actually fighting each other which as it turns out apparently was what he was actually planning all along in order to remold them.

As Shockwave points out, in issue 10, Megatron says he needs to keep the Decepticons together until somebody else, like Starscream, can take over.

It is not that Megatron planned for the Decepticons to implode, it is that he knew it would happen. He just thought he could beat the clock.

Dom
-notes that the current issue of AHM is late.

Shockwave wrote:So where exactly would you want them to be then? Lithone? Char? Nebulos? None of those planets would make any more sense than Earth.

Earth is valuable due to the presence of the Ultra Energon. So why have the Decepticons fighting each other there where things could potentially go very wrong involving that energon? Any other planet would make more sense.

Dominic wrote:The reason for having the 6 stages, (war with the Autobots), no longer applies here. There is no reason to hold to the 6 step plan when the reason for that plan is firmly past tense.

The Infiltration Protocol has nothing specifically to do with the war with the Autobots, its all about conquering a planet. The first phase is apparently to set up shop on a planet and gather intelligence about it. Phase 2 involves igniting international hotspots to get the planets inhabitants to fight each other (divide and conquer). We have no idea what phase 3-4 are. Phase 5 isn't fully known, but apparently the Decepticons drop their secrecy by now and might start calling in the big guns. And finally phase 6 where the Decepticons really open up to finish the job of conquering the planet. In the meantime, the Autobots try to stop the Decepticons in each phase.

It is made clear by Starscream's comments in issue 12 that the Decepticons are more or less winning everywhere they fight. And, we see in "Spotlight: Metroplex" that even guys like Sixshot are kind of hurting for things to do, as evidenced by him chasing the Throttlebots around. It is more a question of finding, rather than killing, the remaining Autobots, who would be few and far between at that point.

And yet it's clear from Kup's crew, Omega Supreme and the Throttlebots surviving that while they might be on the ropes, the are still very much alive. And I'm betting there are even more Autobots than that still alive in the universe. Seems to me the Decepticons could use some help tracking them down and making sure they actually finish the job.

Maybe the Decepticons used the ore-13 to fuel the war effort elsewhere? It would have been a nice compliment to having the codes they got from Sunstreaker.

A possibility, but I would think Megatron would want to keep a personal eye on its use to prevent any Decepticons from getting any ideas like Starscream did with it.

Megatron just needs to give the Decepticon something to do. The fact that Earth, and the people on it, is nearby is justification enough. Megatron just needs to stall for time. Any other possible species will be there later. Megatron is not going to say "No, wait, lets go get those guys over there", when he can just say, "Have your party right here."

You keep saying this but that is no justification at all. Megatron can do better than this weak plan with out risking the most powerful and the best source of fuel they've found since they ran out of energon on Cybertron.

Yes, AHM showed Megatron screwing up. Why is this such a bad thing? Does the guy whose name is in the title have to be super duper awesome master-mind guy?

Screwing up is one thing. Screwing up when he has the foresight to know what's coming is another.

As Shockwave points out, in issue 10, Megatron says he needs to keep the Decepticons together until somebody else, like Starscream, can take over.

It is not that Megatron planned for the Decepticons to implode, it is that he knew it would happen. He just thought he could beat the clock.

He wasn't trying to beat any clock or keep them together until someone else took over, he was trying to remold his army into what he originally intended them to be, in a way that makes no sense.

Any other planet would make more sense.

Megatron would likely be going for expedience. Saying, "Hey, lets all go over there and kill those guys!" is harder to sell than, "Hey, lets all stay here and have a party! Killing, cake and ice-cream for everybody!" Earth was where the Decepticons were, thus it was the place they went on a rampage.

And finally phase 6 where the Decepticons really open up to finish the job of conquering the planet. In the meantime, the Autobots try to stop the Decepticons in each phase.

So, who wants to guess how long it has been since I read "Infiltration"? I bet Sparky could guess.

Seriously, I have not read "Infiltration in a looooong time.

My question is why the Decepticons would bother with wiping out a planet at that point....unless of course it is simply an excercise in team-building, which is what I have been saying the attack shown in AHM was about.

And yet it's clear from Kup's crew, Omega Supreme and the Throttlebots surviving that while they might be on the ropes, the are still very much alive. And I'm betting there are even more Autobots than that still alive in the universe. Seems to me the Decepticons could use some help tracking them down and making sure they actually finish the job.

There is a huge difference between a bunch of scattered guys running around and an organized faction. Even if there are 1,000 groups like the Throttle-bots running around, if they are not organized and communicating, there is no actual faction to speak of. It might be fun to hunt them, but their military value is relatively low. And, the work involved in finding them would be tedious and possibly expensive (in administrative terms).

He wasn't trying to beat any clock or keep them together until someone else took over, he was trying to remold his army into what he originally intended them to be, in a way that makes no sense.

The clock Megatron was trying to beat was the "how long until my band of lunatics kills each-other" clock. He needs to keep them together long enough for a new leader. He even tells Starscream that his day will come. Megatron is planning it. (The fact Megatron is okay with this gives a pretty good insight into what he actually is.)

Dom
-notes that the "Robot Heroes" book seems derived from AHM.

Dominic wrote:Megatron would likely be going for expedience. Saying, "Hey, lets all go over there and kill those guys!" is harder to sell than, "Hey, lets all stay here and have a party! Killing, cake and ice-cream for everybody!" Earth was where the Decepticons were, thus it was the place they went on a rampage.

The way the story goes, it's more like "Congratulations army for defeating the Autobots, now lets abandon all the structure we had for conquering planets we've been using on this planet for four years and conquer this with mindless violence instead for no apparent reason, while completely ignoring why this planet was important to us in the first place".

I can see Megatron giving his troops some room to celebrate, but it doesn't make sense he'd have them completely abandon the infiltration protocols and the ultra energon so needlessly. Even with the Autobots out of the picture it just doesn't make sense.

My question is why the Decepticons would bother with wiping out a planet at that point....unless of course it is simply an excercise in team-building, which is what I have been saying the attack shown in AHM was about.

The better question would be: why would the Decepticons bother conquering any planet at all? Earth clearly wasn't the only planet they had targeted for conquest, but for what purpose? Earth is made clear to be of special significance given it had Energon. Other planets however did not have that same distinction. It doesn't make sense they'd go through all of the trouble just for team building. They must have had some reason why they wanted those planets under their control in the first place. Raw materials? Other energy supplies? Colonies to settle while their homeworld is offlimits? There is any number of reasons.

There is a huge difference between a bunch of scattered guys running around and an organized faction.

If there are as many Autobots still out there as I believe there are based on the fact there already are so many survivors, then the Decepticons did a pathetic job of actually defeating the Autobot army. It appears to be more of a temporary win, forcing the Autobots to retreat and regroup as opposed to actually ending the war. It would take the entire army to track down all the scattered Autobots to finish the job if that actually is their purpose.

The clock Megatron was trying to beat was the "how long until my band of lunatics kills each-other" clock. He needs to keep them together long enough for a new leader. He even tells Starscream that his day will come. Megatron is planning it. (The fact Megatron is okay with this gives a pretty good insight into what he actually is.)

Megatron was fully anticipating when the Decepticons would turn on each other. There was no clock for it, he appeared to know it wouldn't take them very long. But as for Starscream, while he knows Starscream will eventually surpass him, he also indicates that day is still sometime in the future. You make it sound like the two events are related, when they are clearly two separate inevitabilities that Megatron has prepared for.

Why are you assuming the ore-13 would be put at any re risk by the Decepticon wiping out cities in one country? It is not like the people would even know to look for, let alone attack, stores of ore-13.

Megatron would need to give his troops an immediate target for their *immediate* aggression. Saying, "Hey, wait for a few days", ain't gonna cut it. Why do you think Soviet commanders turned their boys loose on Berlin? Part of it was to show the Nazis who was in charge. But, it was also to give the (very irrate) infantry something to vent their frustration on at the time they needed to beat something (a city) into ruin.

Megatron knew the Decepticons will fall apart, and he has to keep them together until the next leader (Starscream) is ready. If the army falls apart before then, then everything Megatron has tried to build goes away.

Scattered Autobots are hardly an army, let alone a presentable enemy. However many Autobots are alive during AHM, if they are not organized in any meaningful way, they are not a politically viable opponent. The fact that the most useful thing Sixshot can find to do is chase Throttlebots should indicate how badly the Decepticons need something to do.


Dom
-and no cosmic gibberwank.

Dominic wrote:Why are you assuming the ore-13 would be put at any re risk by the Decepticon wiping out cities in one country? It is not like the people would even know to look for, let alone attack, stores of ore-13.

Oh I dunno, perhaps the Decepticons mindless violence getting out of control might have something to do with it. And the Decepticons were not attacking cities in just one country. We see in issue 6 specifically that they are in other countries as well, in that issue being Israel and China. The Decepticons were attacking Earth on a global scale, not just in the United States. Not to mention Starscream, Thundercracker, Skywarp, Blitzwing, Astrotrain and Megatron all know about the Ultra Energon. Don' you think one or more of them might capitalize on the situation?

Megatron would need to give his troops an immediate target for their *immediate* aggression. Saying, "Hey, wait for a few days", ain't gonna cut it.

I think you underestimate them. They were much more in control of themselves when the attack on Earth began. It wasn't until they started getting bored with Earth because it wasn't proving to be a challenge for them that they started turning on each other. They could have waited a few days for them to reach another destination. Or even to go after Autobot survivors which would keep them preoccupied until all of the Autobots were truely gone.

Megatron knew the Decepticons will fall apart, and he has to keep them together until the next leader (Starscream) is ready. If the army falls apart before then, then everything Megatron has tried to build goes away.

What makes you think Megatron is just keeping the Decepticons together until the next leader takes over? Given his plans to remold the army (despite the means to that end not making any sense), it seems he still has things to accomplish. Not to mention who knows when Starscream will actually be capable of surpassing Megatron as leader. Given that, all indications is that Megatron is planning on sticking around for a while yet, not to just hold the Decepticons together until a new leader takes over.

Scattered Autobots are hardly an army, let alone a presentable enemy. However many Autobots are alive during AHM, if they are not organized in any meaningful way, they are not a politically viable opponent. The fact that the most useful thing Sixshot can find to do is chase Throttlebots should indicate how badly the Decepticons need something to do.

Sixshot is actually trying to finish the job he started. He isn't the type to leave a job incomplete. And how long do you think the Autobots will remain scattered? It's only a matter of time until they regroup and present themselves as a viable opponent once again. Even if they remain scattered, the Autobot survivors could present a threat to some groups of Deccepticons.

My mistake re: the countries being attacked.

The only one of the Decepticons you mention who would be smart (orotherwise willling) enough to capitalize on ore-13 is Starscream. The rest would likely figure it belonged to the boss, and not touch it. If nothing else, they would remember the beating Megatron gave Starscream for being too smart for his own good.

as for the Autobots, what would the rally around? They were completely scattered. Even basic communications and transport were pretty well disrupted. They might for a few raiding parties. But, that is a minimal threat. Border raids and such are not fun to be on the wrong end of, but they are not a huge threat that warrants the attention of upper command. Bandits are not an army. And, hunting for them would likely get tedious, and thus be a bad excercise in team-building.

Dom

Dominic wrote:The only one of the Decepticons you mention who would be smart (orotherwise willling) enough to capitalize on ore-13 is Starscream. The rest would likely figure it belonged to the boss, and not touch it. If nothing else, they would remember the beating Megatron gave Starscream for being too smart for his own good.

I wouldn't be so sure on that. The entire crew Megatron had with him on Earth went against his orders and revive Starscream when they didn't agree with his plans on bringing Sixshot to Earth so early. Given how the Decepticons were splintering in this story, it wouldn't be a stretch for some of them to get the idea to use the Ultra Energon to their advantage one way or another.

as for the Autobots, what would the rally around? They were completely scattered. Even basic communications and transport were pretty well disrupted. They might for a few raiding parties. But, that is a minimal threat. Border raids and such are not fun to be on the wrong end of, but they are not a huge threat that warrants the attention of upper command. Bandits are not an army. And, hunting for them would likely get tedious, and thus be a bad excercise in team-building.

The Autobots survivors would most likely try to seek out other survivors, and the Decepticons disruption of their communication and transport was fairly clearly established to only be temporary. In essence, the Autobots would rally around each other like they always do because their strength is in their team work. Like I said, it's only a matter of time until the Autobots regroup if the Decepticons didn't go after them. And you are underestimating how devastating hit and run missions could be. Even as "bandits" they could be potentially big threat to the Decepticons. Think of Star Wars as an example, the Rebellion wasn't exactly an army or even as powerful as the Empire, and yet...

Hunting the surviving Autobots might be a tedious job, but you keep saying Megatron needed to give his troops something to do. And I'd disagree that it would be a bad exercise in team building. It would take a great deal of coordination and cooperation to be able to pull that off.