We've got Hall of Fame voting going on up there

[Shockwave]

O6 is saying that they do not constantly re-use '"Autobots and Decepticons crash at the same time on the same ship...."

I did say "technically" as an indicator it's not quite the same thing. But it is still a basic plot idea that's been reused a lot throughout Transformers.

Like I said, it was just too much supposition for me that it went past my bullshitometer. Yours apparently has a higher tolerance than mine.

No, I don't agree that it was supposition in the first place. As I keep pointing out, the examples you've been pointing are about what I've been saying could have happened, not what actually happened in the comic.

I don't think O6 was talking about the in context reason for it, he was talking about why the writers chose that setting. We KNOW they scanned fossils, no one here is debating otherwise.

I know... My point was that because they were fossils, it had nothing to do with what the writers chose as a setting. They could have just as easily found fossils in a modern day setting as they did on prehistoric Earth.

Again, I think you missed O6's point (I'll obviously leave to O6 to correct me if I'm wrong, but here's what I think he meant): It's not that there haven't been "Transformers on Earth for millions of years" it's that none of those series had "woke up in 1984 and took only '84 alt modes". Or worse, "went back to 1984 when G1 happened but couldn't interact with any of those characters".

No, I know what he was getting at. But I think my point is still valid. As I said to Dom, it might not be the exact same, but it's still a plot idea they've reused a lot. And really, I wouldn't say Beast Wars is as confined as O6 claims. The comic may have also taken place on pre-historic Earth, but those characters had a very different arrival and reason for being there than the characters in the cartoon.

The premise would have been better at least.

I totally disagree. As I've said, I thought the premise of the comic we got was great. It's just how the story was handled/executed that brought it down.

You can say "technically" all you want, but it doesn't work for the argument because O6's complaint is that the BW comic went back to EXACTLY the same time at EXACTLY the same place in EXACTLY the same setting. And sorry, this isn't about themes, it's about details. Yeah, the themes have been used over and over and if that had happened with the BW comics it would have probably been better. We would have gotten a new setting with Optimus and Megatron and the characters we actually gave a shit about instead of "z-lister toy parade" that we got. But RID, the UT, the Movie, none of those went back to the exact same setting as the G1 cartoon. I could argue that Animated kind of did since we got clips of G1 as "historical tapes" but even that didn't pull the same bs that the BW comic did. It's not like any of those series went "hey, remember G1? Well look what else was happening at that same exact time!". But that is exactly what the BW comic did.

Sparky, I hate to say this but I think we're at the same impass we reached before. I thought pretty much every part of the BW comic sucked. From premise, to writing to execution, it was just 100% epic fail for me. You disagree and that's ok.

[Sparky Prime]

You can say "technically" all you want, but it doesn't work for the argument because O6's complaint is that the BW comic went back to EXACTLY the same time at EXACTLY the same place in EXACTLY the same setting. And sorry, this isn't about themes, it's about details.

In that case, the argument was flawed to begin with. Comparing the details of a SINGLE continuity to that of OTHER continuities? It takes everything out of context. Of course the details of other continuities aren't going to be EXACTLY the same because those continuities are inherently different. The only way that argument would work is if you look at the themes rather than the details. If you're going to make it an argument about the details, you have to keep the context consistent.

Sparky, I hate to say this but I think we're at the same impass we reached before. I thought pretty much every part of the BW comic sucked. From premise, to writing to execution, it was just 100% epic fail for me. You disagree and that's ok.

We certainly have a difference of opinions.

[Shockwave]

You can say "technically" all you want, but it doesn't work for the argument because O6's complaint is that the BW comic went back to EXACTLY the same time at EXACTLY the same place in EXACTLY the same setting. And sorry, this isn't about themes, it's about details.

In that case, the argument was flawed to begin with. Comparing the details of a SINGLE continuity to that of OTHER continuities? It takes everything out of context. Of course the details of other continuities aren't going to be EXACTLY the same because those continuities are inherently different. The only way that argument would work is if you look at the themes rather than the details. If you're going to make it an argument about the details, you have to keep the context consistent.

Come on, you know damn well what we're talking about here. Stop quibling over semantics and get back to the issue: The main problem we're arguing is that we're supposed to accept that there's an infinite number of G1 continuities, but there can only be one BW continuity? Bullshit. Now, if you wanna call that details or themes or concepts or whatever, I don't care. That's what we're debating.

[Sparky Prime]

Come on, you know damn well what we're talking about here. Stop quibling over semantics and get back to the issue: The main problem we're arguing is that we're supposed to accept that there's an infinite number of G1 continuities, but there can only be one BW continuity? Bullshit. Now, if you wanna call that details or themes or concepts or whatever, I don't care. That's what we're debating.

I don't see that it was, but moving on... I've never seen anyone saying there can only be one BW continuity. It's just worked out so far that no one has really ventured into other continuities with it like has happened to G1. And so what if they haven't? Why all the hate against the comic simply because it didn't start a new continuity? Why the assumptions that something new/different would automatically be better?

[Shockwave]

Come on, you know damn well what we're talking about here. Stop quibling over semantics and get back to the issue: The main problem we're arguing is that we're supposed to accept that there's an infinite number of G1 continuities, but there can only be one BW continuity? Bullshit. Now, if you wanna call that details or themes or concepts or whatever, I don't care. That's what we're debating.

I don't see that it was, but moving on...

That's because you'd rather sit there and pick apart the semantics of what's said rather than just focusing on the damned point.

I've never seen anyone saying there can only be one BW continuity. It's just worked out so far that no one has really ventured into other continuities with it like has happened to G1.

No one has actually said it either verbally or in writing, but I definitely think it's been clearly stated in deed. IDW stated as much by trying to shoehorn their comic into that one singular context. So did Dreamwave with their one shot story (which was going to lead to an ongoing comic).

And so what if they haven't? Why all the hate against the comic simply because it didn't start a new continuity?

Oh it's not just that, but it's a large part of it. And the reason is because what we wind up with winds up sucking as a direct result. I might give a shit about new characters if they're going to have an impact on the story, but leaving them out of the main BW time stream while at the same time shoehorning them into it means that the story we get isn't about characters that we give a shit about. What I (and I think most of the others here that have been arguing this point) wanted to see was new stories involving the old characters while introducing new ones. I want to see new stories featuring Primal and his crew vs. Megatron and his renegade Preds with a much broader cast of characters. At the end of the day you're not gonna that without a new continuity. Period. The BW show was good, told a good story and now it's done. It's time for that part of the franchise to move on and branch out to other things. I dunno, it all just felt so half assed and this really just seemed to be the root cause of it.

Why the assumptions that something new/different would automatically be better?

Now this is something we can both agree on, especially given some of the G1 continuities that we've gotten.

[Sparky Prime]

That's because you'd rather sit there and pick apart the semantics of what's said rather than just focusing on the damned point.

If an argument is making a point unfairly out of context, then why would I focus on that point? It only makes sense to address the argument itself.

No one has actually said it either verbally or in writing, but I definitely think it's been clearly stated in deed. IDW stated as much by trying to shoehorn their comic into that one singular context. So did Dreamwave with their one shot story (which was going to lead to an ongoing comic).

As I've previously argued, by the time "The Gathering" was released, Beast Wars had reached it's 15th Anniversary and there had been no Beast Wars context in the public eye for a few years by then. I think all things considered for the time, it made more sense for them to incorporate the original continuity with a new story then to try and start something totally new.

And Dreamwave's Beast Wars comic wasn't going to be an ongoing. It was scheduled to be a 6 part mini-series.

Oh it's not just that, but it's a large part of it. And the reason is because what we wind up with winds up sucking as a direct result.

Well that's strictly a matter of opinion.

What I (and I think most of the others here that have been arguing this point) wanted to see was new stories involving the old characters while introducing new ones. I want to see new stories featuring Primal and his crew vs. Megatron and his renegade Preds with a much broader cast of characters. At the end of the day you're not gonna that without a new continuity. Period.

I think the real heart of the matter is, no matter what they did, not everyone would be happy about it and find something to complain about.

[Ursus mellifera]

As I've previously argued, by the time "The Gathering" was released, Beast Wars had reached it's 15th Anniversary and there had been no Beast Wars context in the public eye for a few years by then. I think all things considered for the time, it made more sense for them to incorporate the original continuity with a new story then to try and start something totally new.

I want to step in and disagree with this. The 15th anniversary is a perfect time to restart something differently. "Hey, remember that thing you loved 15 years ago? We're restarting it in a new, awesome way!"

[Gomess]

As I've previously argued, by the time "The Gathering" was released, Beast Wars had reached it's 15th Anniversary and there had been no Beast Wars context in the public eye for a few years by then. I think all things considered for the time, it made more sense for them to incorporate the original continuity with a new story then to try and start something totally new.

I want to step in and disagree with this. The 15th anniversary is a perfect time to restart something differently. "Hey, remember that thing you loved 15 years ago? We're restarting it in a new, awesome way!"

Yeah, I'm with Honey-Producing Bear too. Seriously, Sparky, I dunno how you can say, "The original BW continuity had been out of the public eye for years, so it made sense to create something that tied into it." =/

The Gathering should've been the start of something truly new in the Beast Wars Universe.

But there *is* no Beast Wars Universe. It's just an appendix to G1, and at this rate will remain so. =[

[Mako Crab]

The Gathering should've been the start of something truly new in the Beast Wars Universe.

Agreed. I've met TF fans that had never seen the BW toon, but picked up IDW's BW comic, and were very confused as to what was going on. It would've been easier to just start fresh.

New setting, time, place
New cast
No baggage

[Gomess]

Unfortunately, I think I'm likely to get a new TF series without characters called Prime and Megatron before we get a proper BW reboot. =[

(And truth be told, if I had the choice, I'd throw a new BW series over in a second for a new series without a Prime or a Megatron.)