TF Views

Apparently, since Drift and Wheeljack are both white cars, they can't both get figures at the same time. Too many tanks. Look, I didn't say it made sense.

So, you are saying no Jazz then either?

andersonh1 wrote:I'd generally agree with the top five, though I'd probably rank Soundwave ahead of Grimlock. Then again, Grimlock's had more face time in the comics thanks to Simon Furman, so maybe he would rank above Soundwave.

When Grimlock garners 100% of the votes, there's no way Soundwave can carry. While some folks might rank Soundwave higher, the fact that Grimlock ranks for everybody proves how universal the character is. Too bad the figure kinda sucks.

Dominic wrote:-was really pulling for Barricade.

Why? What does Barricade have going on?

How did you monetize the votes and points? I assume it was inverse, with slot one being worth 5 points, and slot 5 being worth 1.

Yup. That's how Hasbro's going to merge all the sites' poll results too.

Leave your fanon out of this.

... says the man citing Ben Yee's Sourcebook entry, a tome that he himself bashed repeatedly for being exactly that.

I just looked over the relevant posts at SSG. I know a couple of guys there were trying to game the system and get new figures of certain characters. I am not sure how I feel about that. Part of me really wants this to be a listing of truly iconic characters. But, part of me feels that we could have had an opportunity to nicely tell Hasbro to make another Wheeljack figure. By that standard, every vote for Soundwave or Grimlock was arguably wasted by virtue of new figures of those characters being all but certain even without this poll.

I think stacking the deck with the first 4 figures made this one a tougher idea to sell this time. While it would have been nice, I suspect next year's Hall of Fame would tell them more than this one.

BWprowl wrote:Is there even any reason to believe that the Hall of Famers are going to get new toys? I agree that it would be nice, but I'm with Dom in thinking that we should just prioritize honoring iconic characters.

They hinted at it, said it would help shape the future of TF, or something like that.

Also, Hasbro's already said, point-blank, that a new Wheeljack isn't going to be on the table for a while. Because of Drift, and all.

Say WHAAAAA? Wait, Poochie is holding back Wheeljack? I've been pretty kind to Drift, forgiving his transgressions hoping that it was ok to add a character so blatantly obvious, but now it's holding back a much cooler character? That I cannot stand for.

In any case, I can see why the SSG guys were trying finagle new toys out of this. Can you blame them for trying?
-suddenly wished he bulleted for for Jazz. Just a thought.

Jazz was in Animated and the M1 line and now the Human Alliance line. Why is Jazz worthy of even more toys when the last new Wheeljack we got was in Cybertron and named Downshift because of the stupid Armada character name and looked little like the original?

Why? What does Barricade have going on?

Barricade has staying power with fans, and is recognizable by non-fans. LIke the movie or hate it, (and we agree about the movie itself), Barricade qualifies for this list.

Yup. That's how Hasbro's going to merge all the sites' poll results too.

I can see why Hasbro would use that method when counting the numbers submitted by forums, as it is easier. But, it could lead to some characters being bumped up or down.

... says the man citing Ben Yee's Sourcebook entry, a tome that he himself bashed repeatedly for being exactly that.

I said it read *like* fanfic, that that it *is* fanfic. No reasonable person questions its official validity.

Jazz was in Animated and the M1 line and now the Human Alliance line. Why is Jazz worthy of even more toys when the last new Wheeljack we got was in Cybertron and named Downshift because of the stupid Armada character name and looked little like the original?

Jazz is iconic, arguably more so than any of the cars we chose. I am pretty sure there was an Alternator after the "Energon" figure. Either way, putting aside trying game the system, (which I can totally understand doing), Jazz is iconic and part of me wishes I voted for him.


Dom
-kind of likes Drift actually.

138 Scourge wrote:Apparently, since Drift and Wheeljack are both white cars, they can't both get figures at the same time. Too many tanks. Look, I didn't say it made sense.

Sorry, I didn't see this post (or page) when I first replied. That is super lame, and pretty thin considering Sideswipe and Sideways on pegs at the same time being the same color. Where did you hear that? That's the worst company logic ever if true - it's called "release them a few waves apart", Hasbro!

Dominic wrote:Barricade has staying power with fans, and is recognizable by non-fans. LIke the movie or hate it, (and we agree about the movie itself), Barricade qualifies for this list.

So, in other words, flavor of the month. That argument shares the same DNA as arguing for Drift, "he's popular with certain sects".

Barricade qualifies for jack and then shit. He's a nothing character, a throwaway, most of the "non-fans" you cite wouldn't even be able to name him, just say "the black bad guy cop car" probably. He has no personality and does almost nothing. Whether or not he's recognizable doesn't alone make him Hall of Fame material. He's so unimportant that he disappears 2/3rds through the film and isn't noticed as doing so.

I can see why Hasbro would use that method when counting the numbers submitted by forums, as it is easier. But, it could lead to some characters being bumped up or down.

Justify this claim, I am not seeing it.

I said it read *like* fanfic, that that it *is* fanfic. No reasonable person questions its official validity.

Largely because no reasonable person is aware of its existence or cares about Beast Wars canon at all. Nosir, I'm not buying this load of rich, creamery butter. Just because a fan got paid to write some bios doesn't mean it's really canon, it just means TPTB don't care enough to establish anything more important because the material is unimportant for the time being. The moment Hasbro has something different to say about Soundwave's future, that will be canon and the Sourcebook bio will be on its ass because Hasbro won't pay any heed to it.

Jazz is iconic, arguably more so than any of the cars we chose.

That's really subjective.

I am pretty sure there was an Alternator after the "Energon" figure.

I didn't mention the Energon figure though, I said the last one was the CYBERTRON figure. And that Alternators figure came a year before the Cybertron one. And the Alternators figure wasn't a new figure, it was just a repaint of that shitty Grimlock mold with a new head, Wheellock, Grimjack (perhaps both somewhat plausible TF names). The Energon figure was the last Wheeljack-styled Wheeljack figure though.

Dom
-kind of likes Drift actually.

Dom
- is lost to us now, he is... adrift.

I can see a case for Barricade if only to represent the movie franchise although I don't think the films really warrant hall of fame status.

My jury's ultimately still out on Drift, but here's my problem with him: It's an offshoot of the problem I have with Sunstorm. He's a new character created to fill a literary story telling need. He's unnecessary. If they needed a character like him, why not pick any one of the hundred or so existing TF characters that already have toys that have never actually been used yet? Several of the Pretenders and the various "Masters" never got any real development, so they're usable (and I would point out that in his Spotlight issue Drift is first seen pretending to be humanoid. Tell me a pretender shell wouldn't have been useful for that. Just sayin'.) I mean do writers never even bother to go through the old toy catalogues and say "hey, here's a character that would fit". No. That would be too easy. I have this same problem with Sunstorm and Acid Storm but with them I have the added problem of "random animation error from cartoon is now cannon". Sunstorm was at leas used in a literary sense. Acid Storm is just pure fan wank in my opinion.

The problem with using an existing character for Drift's role is that it would have involved re-writing an origin or faction affiliation. Either option would have made fans angry and complainy. (Yes, Drift did that as well. McCarthy could not have won.) Dinobot or Carnivac could have worked in this capacity, but would have been problematic for other reasons, and been a real stretch in Dinobot's case.

I would argue that Sunstorm and Acidstorm are not fanwanky in and of themselves. Sunstorm became fanwanky because everybody went crazy for an exclusive. Acidstorm's bio has explicit references to a fan. But, there is no Mary Sue action that I recall. (Acid Storm shows up for work and does a good job of it. Bully for him.) If anything, Sunstorm is more of an animation mistake made cannon than Acid Storm. Either way, we got some new characters and toys out of it.

Like I said, I like Drift. I like the story he shows up in. But, he ain't Hall of Fame worth by any definition.

Barricade does warrant inclusion though. "That police car lookin' bad guy" carries as much weight as "that tape player guy with the tapes".

I am pretty sure that Jazz has more appearances than the other Autobots we discussed. And, he is very recognizable, and had a "legitimate" voice actor. (The fact Hasbro went out of there way to keep him alive post-movie says a bit in his favor.) This is nothing against the other choices, just regret that I did not vote for Jazz. (I might bullet for Jazz next year.)



MY problem with the counts is as follows:
JT assigns ranks based on points, which were based on number of times a character appeared on a member's list, with points being inverse to slots. In theory, a character showing up fewer times, but higher up on a members list, could get more points than a character showing up lower on more lists. (At a basic level, if I and Prowl voted for Drift in slot one, and 4 other members voted for Mirage in slot 4, Drift would get 10 points, to Mirage's 8. In reality, this means that 4 people think Mirage is worthy of HoF inclusion and Drift has two fanatical supporters.) In theory, a character could show up on a number of lists, (showing that many fans are interested), and lose to a character with fewer (if more fanatical) supporters. Barricade and Prowl are actually good examples of this, and you (JT) sited a few others.

(Imagine David Willis motivating people to support one of his idiotic favorites just to be kewl.) The problem would then compound when Hasbro gets the lists, (that would not include anything past 5 slots).

Largely because no reasonable person is aware of its existence or cares about Beast Wars canon at all. Nosir, I'm not buying this load of rich, creamery butter. Just because a fan got paid to write some bios doesn't mean it's really canon, it just means TPTB don't care enough to establish anything more important because the material is unimportant for the time being. The moment Hasbro has something different to say about Soundwave's future, that will be canon and the Sourcebook bio will be on its ass because Hasbro won't pay any heed to it.

The sourcebook was published with Hasbro santion. A fan getting some work out of it does not make it less official. Official content can be over-written. But, even after it is over-written, it is still official. (I am not a fan of female Minicons. But, if somebody tells me that Sureshock is female, they have as much legitimate basis to make that case as I do to make the counter-arguement. They might even have more depending on how one monetizes certain sources.)

I didn't mention the Energon figure though, I said the last one was the CYBERTRON figure. And that Alternators figure came a year before the Cybertron one. And the Alternators figure wasn't a new figure, it was just a repaint of that shitty Grimlock mold with a new head, Wheellock, Grimjack (perhaps both somewhat plausible TF names). The Energon figure was the last Wheeljack-styled Wheeljack figure though.

Ah, my mistake. I mis-remembered a couple of release dates and recolors. Either way though, "Alternators" Wheeljack does not count less for being a recolor/head-swap. (I do not like the toy. But, it counts.)


Dom
-where the hell is Sparky? No, really. Where the hell is he?

I'll confess that I'm fairly unfamiliar with the later year G1 characters (the various masters, pretenders, etc), so there wasn't one single Autobot character that used to be a Decepticon at all among either the Headmasters, Targetmasters, Powermasters, Micromasters, Action Masters or Pretenders? Seriously, that's like 50 some odd characters added to a line that already had well over 100. None of them had switched sides? If that really is the case, then alright, I'll give it to McCarthy.

As for Acid and Sunny, well, I liked Sunstorm at first and then he got crammed down our throats and I got sick of him. Their both retcon. Acid Storm loses additional points with me because I feel like we got him instead of a mass release US Classics Thundercracker. I know, I know, "Go buy a Botcon or Henkei one". Bite me! I'm not going to!

Shockwave
-Is totally going to.

Also, they're apparently going to do a mass release Thrust, and they've already reissued Starscream in a Henkei-esque paint job so it's still possible we might actually see a mass release TC.

Shockwave wrote:I can see a case for Barricade if only to represent the movie franchise although I don't think the films really warrant hall of fame status.

To me, that's such a committee argument, "we have to have 1 of every franchise regardless of quality" thing that I can't get behind it, it adds too much value to the flavor of the month argument. There's no call to include RiD in here, yet 10 years ago perhaps there may have been, what does that say about those "then" votes?

My jury's ultimately still out on Drift, but here's my problem with him: It's an offshoot of the problem I have with Sunstorm. He's a new character created to fill a literary story telling need. He's unnecessary. If they needed a character like him, why not pick any one of the hundred or so existing TF characters that already have toys that have never actually been used yet? Several of the Pretenders and the various "Masters" never got any real development, so they're usable (and I would point out that in his Spotlight issue Drift is first seen pretending to be humanoid. Tell me a pretender shell wouldn't have been useful for that. Just sayin'.) I mean do writers never even bother to go through the old toy catalogues and say "hey, here's a character that would fit". No. That would be too easy. I have this same problem with Sunstorm and Acid Storm but with them I have the added problem of "random animation error from cartoon is now cannon". Sunstorm was at leas used in a literary sense. Acid Storm is just pure fan wank in my opinion.

I totally agree about Sunstorm, making a big whoop over something that had to be "made" when someone else could have filled those shoes. Drift fills the need of "the badass fanboy quencher", he's designed to be Wolverine, to be that 1 thing that we don't have, the Japanese drift car character. Do we really need him? No, it's not organic. But it could be ok if he were just one of the new guys. But is he just one of the new guys? No, he's a superbadass with a superbadass backstory and a superbadass look and superbadass weapons that he never actually is seen using. He's attitude. Acid Storm is a little fankwankery, Drift is Poochie because he's a lot of "what we assume fans want to have as fanwank" without even doing anything, he's all show, no go.

Dominic wrote:The problem with using an existing character for Drift's role is that it would have involved re-writing an origin or faction affiliation. Either option would have made fans angry and complainy. (Yes, Drift did that as well. McCarthy could not have won.) Dinobot or Carnivac could have worked in this capacity, but would have been problematic for other reasons, and been a real stretch in Dinobot's case.

This argument only holds water under the assumption that Drift's faction-shifting origin is the keystone of what needed to be told.

Barricade does warrant inclusion though. "That police car lookin' bad guy" carries as much weight as "that tape player guy with the tapes".

Except that while outsiders may call Soundwave that, insiders also know his name as one of the big deal characters because he's been there, he's done that, he's been used in every media in Transformers and his gimmick is an original. Barricade is just another transforming car who fights and then doesn't matter. And outsiders are a lot more aware of Soundwave over Barricade in role and action too.

I think you may be working so damned hard to justify Barricade simply because you want to back up your vote, not actually argue he's a decent nomination.

MY problem with the counts is as follows:
JT assigns ranks based on points, which were based on number of times a character appeared on a member's list, with points being inverse to slots. In theory, a character showing up fewer times, but higher up on a members list, could get more points than a character showing up lower on more lists. (At a basic level, if I and Prowl voted for Drift in slot one, and 4 other members voted for Mirage in slot 4, Drift would get 10 points, to Mirage's 8. In reality, this means that 4 people think Mirage is worthy of HoF inclusion and Drift has two fanatical supporters.) In theory, a character could show up on a number of lists, (showing that many fans are interested), and lose to a character with fewer (if more fanatical) supporters. Barricade and Prowl are actually good examples of this, and you (JT) sited a few others.

I've thought long and hard about this already. While you make a point that fanatics can sway the vote, my intention was to get more votes which would soften the impact of zealotry voting. But since we didn't, I still counter that the fact that 4 folks thought Mirage was only good enough to be #4 means that character doesn't have more staying power, they don't feel strongly enough to push another choice out of the way. "I'd like to get Brawn, but I'm only buying Bumblebee, Sideswipe, and Blurr," and thus Brawn ends up being well-thought-of but still not a top contending finisher in that person's mind.

So how would you tally votes differently to better counter zealotry?

The sourcebook was published with Hasbro santion. A fan getting some work out of it does not make it less official. Official content can be over-written. But, even after it is over-written, it is still official. (I am not a fan of female Minicons. But, if somebody tells me that Sureshock is female, they have as much legitimate basis to make that case as I do to make the counter-arguement. They might even have more depending on how one monetizes certain sources.)

You know what else is published with official sanction? Transformers coloring books. Kiss Play. Shitty live-action movies directed by Michael Bay. The cover of Marvel Transformers #1 starring an old guy and some kid and a half-transformed car-bot flying after Laserbeak and a freaky super gigantic Optimus Prime wearing steel underpants even though a NORMAL Optimus Prime is in the upper left corner. Wheelie. Kicker. Rodimus gets Optimus shot by being a total moron and still gets to hang onto the Matrix. Nightscream. Animorphs.

Ah, my mistake. I mis-remembered a couple of release dates and recolors. Either way though, "Alternators" Wheeljack does not count less for being a recolor/head-swap. (I do not like the toy. But, it counts.)

It counts less. They didn't build that tooling intending for it to be Wheeljack, they just cobbled together a new head and slapped it on there with that character in mind.

JediTricks wrote:You know what else is published with official sanction? ...Kicker.

Hey now. If not for the "you can only vote for Transformers" rule, Kicker would've had all *five* of my slots. Which would've given him fifteen points, and a shot at the Hall of Fame. Which he rightfully deserves.