TF Views

Dominic wrote:If you apply the cop-rule to Ultra Magnus, somebody has to go down.

There is a dead body. Several guys have been kidnapped. The leader is AWOL. The guy who is nominally in charge is a boob. Other guys are taking off left and right. If nothing else, Magnus might just decide to hold somebody for questioning. Think of it as a more robust court summons. Ultra Magnus might just have to arrest somebody to justify the trip to Earth. I would want to be out of the room when that happened.

As Ultra Magnus himself pointed out, he's just there to investigate the recent events involving Ironhide's death and Prime's surrender and says he isn't there to come down on anyone. Questioning those involved is a given but he isn't the type to arrest someone just to justify the trip. He's much more of a 'by the book' type of character, who'd only arrest someone if he had probable cause.

As for Blurr, context matters. Given how badly things were going, and how frayed tempers were, could you blame Blurr for being a bit trigger-happy? And, really, would Bumblebee getting whacked really be such a bad thing?

When there were other options available, yes, I do blame Blurr for being trigger happy. And I dunno why you seem to want to make Bumblebee the bad guy here. Yes, he's making mistakes as leader, but it wasn't his choice to become leader as the others voted him in.

Just because Magnus is not looking to come down on anyone does not mean he will not. If somebody were to step forward and say, "Well, it was like this.....", Magnus would likely be fine with that. But, if no answers are presented.....

Keep in mind how bad things are for the Earth-stationed Autobots. I would say it is comparable to the sort of thing were a cop would have to take somebody in.

Hoist, Blurr and co were acting sensibly. Do you ride the subway often? When something is getting out of hand, (a raving drunkard setting themselves up for an injury of beating), what do you do? Ideally, you can leave and walk to the next station. Failing that, you find something else to look at so you can say "I didn't see nuthin'". Being a witness can be a pain in the arse.

In a situation like this, Magnus might just detain somebody.


Bumblebee is written to be an idiot. The fact he was elected makes the other Autobots idiots. (Yes, the real reason is that Costa is deciding to write them as idiots, but....) The level of stupidity, (even if it is to make the story work), is staggering. Who would want or follow a guy like Bumblebee? Honestly now......


Dom
-of course, we need to know what Autobot laws and regulations are to be sure.

Dominic wrote:Bumblebee is written to be an idiot. The fact he was elected makes the other Autobots idiots. (Yes, the real reason is that Costa is deciding to write them as idiots, but....) The level of stupidity, (even if it is to make the story work), is staggering. Who would want or follow a guy like Bumblebee? Honestly now.....

I wouldn't say he's an idiot so much as appallingly naive. Which isn't really a defense, since he's an accomplished espionage agent for the Autobots and ought to know better, particularly after two years hiding out on Earth observing the humans. You can't blame his characterization on Costa though, since Costa isn't writing the mini.

Dominic wrote:Just because Magnus is not looking to come down on anyone does not mean he will not. If somebody were to step forward and say, "Well, it was like this.....", Magnus would likely be fine with that. But, if no answers are presented.....

Again, Ultra Magnus isn't going to come down on anyone unless he has probable cause to do so. Taking someone in for questioning he might do, but that really isn't what I'd call coming down on anyone. And Bumblebee's group (Bumblebee specifically) has been fully cooperating with Ultra Magnus, answering everything they could save for showing him the scene of Ironhide's death (for obvious reasons) or taking him to Hot Rod (who turned off his signature).

Keep in mind how bad things are for the Earth-stationed Autobots. I would say it is comparable to the sort of thing were a cop would have to take somebody in.

For what? No crimes have been committed by any of the Autobots as far as we've seen or the like. There is no reason to take anybody in.

Hoist, Blurr and co were acting sensibly. Do you ride the subway often? When something is getting out of hand, (a raving drunkard setting themselves up for an injury of beating), what do you do? Ideally, you can leave and walk to the next station. Failing that, you find something else to look at so you can say "I didn't see nuthin'". Being a witness can be a pain in the arse.

In a situation like this, Magnus might just detain somebody.

Again, Blurr, Hoist, Tracks and Beachcomber had nothing to with anything Ultra Magnus is investigating here. That was the first we've even seen of them in the current stories. They weren't witnesses to anything. It'd be like interviewing someone who was two train cars away, with maybe only a general idea of what happened from what they heard from others after the fact. You wouldn't waste your time interviewing them and they really have no reason to get off the train before their stop. As such, these characters really have no sensible reason for leaving just because Ultra Magnus is investigating stuff on Earth.

The only one I can imagine Ultra Magnus might detain is Hot Rod, only because I think Hot Rod might be too stubborn to answer a few simple questions. But again, at this point, Ultra Magnus has no reason to detain any Earth bound Autobots for anything .

Bumblebee is written to be an idiot. The fact he was elected makes the other Autobots idiots. (Yes, the real reason is that Costa is deciding to write them as idiots, but....) The level of stupidity, (even if it is to make the story work), is staggering. Who would want or follow a guy like Bumblebee? Honestly now......

As andersonh1 points out, this mini is written by Zander Cannon. Costa really hasn't done much with Bumblebee in the ongoing yet. I agree, the way Cannon writes Bumblebee makes 'Bee look like an idiot. However, this is only like 'Bee's second day on the job. I think it is understandable that he would make mistakes given there was no way he could have been prepared, and clearly he's made some big mistakes as the result. As for the other Autobot's, there really is no way they could know how he (or anyone) would perform with that job until they tried.

My bad. Cannon writes BB to be an idiot. Costa writes Optimus and others to be idiots.

Hotrod running and blacking out his ID would likely be enough to warrant detaining him. Either way, Magnus might well just have to come back with somebodysomething in hand to justify the trip. (If he is going to spend time and energy travelling to Earth, he is going to want something tangible for his efforts.)

wouldn't say he's an idiot so much as appallingly naive.

And, the defense offers....and alternative indictment.

It does not matter if this is Bumblebee's first or second day on the job. The whole premise of the series seems to be "Bumblebee does the stupidest possible thing at every point". it is convenient/contrived idiocy on a level with the worst of the sci-fi and action genres.

What really sticks with me is the vibe I am getting that the idiot characters like Bumblebee and Optimus are supposed to be morally superior, while the sensible guys like Hotrod or Hoist are less so.


Dom
-thinks Magnus should just shoot Bumblebee and call it a day.

Dominic wrote:Hotrod running and blacking out his ID would likely be enough to warrant detaining him.

Hot Rod isn't doing anything that's wrong by leaving and not wanting to be found, and as Bumblebee said, he wasn't going hold anyone against their will. There is no reason for that to warrant detaining him.

Either way, Magnus might well just have to come back with somebodysomething in hand to justify the trip. (If he is going to spend time and energy travelling to Earth, he is going to want something tangible for his efforts.)

So you've said before, but I still see no justification for this. Ultra Magnus isn't interested it something tangible for his efforts, he's interested in upholding the law. As he said, he's only there to investigate.

It does not matter if this is Bumblebee's first or second day on the job. The whole premise of the series seems to be "Bumblebee does the stupidest possible thing at every point". it is convenient/contrived idiocy on a level with the worst of the sci-fi and action genres.

I highly doubt the "whole premise" of this series will be Bumblebee screwing up. Rather I believe the point of this series is to show us Bumblebee growing as a leader (hence why it does matter if it's his first/second day on the job). Such as we see with Bumblebee starting to show some initiative by asking Blurr to find a vehicle that looks exactly like him and vowing to free the others of this mess at the end of the second issue.

Showing a character growing is different from writing them as being being manifestly stupid. Bumblebee comes across as the latter.

Hot Rod isn't doing anything that's wrong by leaving and not wanting to be found, and as Bumblebee said, he wasn't going hold anyone against their will. There is no reason for that to warrant detaining him.

Hot Rodimus was a party to the mission that got Ironhide killed, (as was BB if I recall). He might be expected to hang around and answer some awkward questions, regardless of what the boss says he can do.

It is not only a question of jurisdiction. I am arguing that Magnus would have a political reason to bag *somebody* given the scale of the mishap he is investigating.


Again of course, we do not have hard information on what laws/rules and jurisdiction the Autobots are working under. Maybe you are right and Rodimus would have no obligation to stick around and answer questions. But, that idea is very counter-intuitive, given how similar TFs seem to be to modern western sensibilities.

Dom
-CSI, Cybertron!

Dominic wrote:Showing a character growing is different from writing them as being being manifestly stupid. Bumblebee comes across as the latter.

To a certain extent, I agree. The way 'Bee is being written just makes him look stupid, but I still say the intent most likely is supposed to show 'Bee growing as a leader.

Hot Rodimus was a party to the mission that got Ironhide killed, (as was BB if I recall). He might be expected to hang around and answer some awkward questions, regardless of what the boss says he can do.

It is not only a question of jurisdiction. I am arguing that Magnus would have a political reason to bag *somebody* given the scale of the mishap he is investigating.

More than likely, Hot Rod probably was debriefed when they returned to the Autobot base after the mission. The thing is, no one was expecting Ultra Magnus to come investigate as a follow up to those events. They were totally surprised when he landed on their doorstep. You can't expect someone to hang around for someone to show up that you don't even know is on their way.

What political reason? Ultra Magnus would still need probable cause to arrest someone. He can't just "bag *somebody*" with out justification.

I would not assume that everybody reads and writes reports even when they are supposed to.

Actually, maybe Prime should be the one to get in trouble. He was in charge when Ironhide got killed.

To a certain extent, I agree. The way 'Bee is being written just makes him look stupid, but I still say the intent most likely is supposed to show 'Bee growing as a leader.

I am not disagreeing about Cannon's, (nor Costa's), intent with the BB series or the main book. They both clearly focus on leadership. But, the execution is so bad that I doubt either will have anything worthwhile to say about the topic.

Dom
-really hopes "Wreckers" is better, but would settle for being awake enough to read the stupid book.

If a group of hunters go out bear hunting in Canada for example, and while they're out there, a bear kills one of them, has a crime been committed? I can see the authorities wanting to establish what happened and account for the man's death, but would they arrest the other hunters?

We've got a similar situation with Ultra Magnus and the other Autobots. I'm not sure why anyone would get in trouble here. The Autobots are currently residing on what could accurately be termed a "hostile planet". The native life forms killed someone under Prime's command while the Autobots were attempting to rescue one of their own. What crime has been committed by an Autobot? Ultra Magnus will investigate, ask questions and determine what led to Ironhide's death. Unless he's a 'bad cop', and he doesn't strike me as one, that's where events will end.

It could be argued that the Tyrest Accords have been violated because Cybertronian technology has been acquired by humans. It's going to be difficult to pin that on any Autobot though. The Machination and the prior version of both Skywatch had access to Transformer technology, so any crime on that front has to be pinned mainly on Scorponok, not the Autobots.