Transformers - ongoing series

[Dominic]

Prowl is a moron. I am talking "Animated" Bulkhead depths of stupidity. But, Bulhead was and idiot savant on a team of screw ups. Prowl is not supposed to be evwn close to this stupid. This is not just out of character, it is beyond reason.

The "what works" is fluid in method, but objective in its goals.

For example, prisons cost money. Prisons for big robots are presumably very expensive. Killing Breakdown would simply be more cost effective, especially if he is already injured. Killing him just works, unless he is otherwise useful.

The same applies to the humans. Sorting out good aliens from bad aliens is more trouble than it is worth. And, there are probably political benefits to being anti-robot.

Cicumstances may change what works, but the general goal of not exposing one's self to cost and danger remain pretty constant.


Dom
-is pretty sure one of Spike's troops earned a bonus.

[andersonh1]

Prowl is acting on a higher principle than simple self-preservation, and that's hardly moronic. That's admirable.

edit - ok, in light of the rest of the issue, I'm going to amend my statement. Prowl's ethics are admirable, but his tactical skills appear to have deserted him in this instance. So yeah, dumb mistake on his part.

[andersonh1]

Issue #1

Where to begin? Just about half the book has been made available online in the past few weeks, including the death of Ironhide, so there’s very little that’s unexpected in this first issue. Even the ending is one of those “I saw it coming” type twists. Not that it isn’t effective, and where the story goes from here is hard to predict, so in that sense it’s successful as a cliffhanger. But I wonder if IDW let too much of the story out before the issue itself was available, reducing anticipation and limiting the surprise factor. Enough pieces of the puzzle were made available that it became possible to guess how the rest of the issue would play out, and indeed it wasn’t all that different from what I had imagined would happen.

After a brief summary of events, the issue begins at a point two years after the finale of “All Hail Megatron”, which leaves time for much of the destruction caused by the Decepticons in that story to be cleaned up and repaired. For reasons that are still not entirely clear, the Autobots have not only remained in hiding on Earth during that time, but have built up their forces. The humans don’t want them, and have developed very effective weaponry to combat any Transformer they find, Autobot or Decepticon. Prime apparently believes that the Autobot presence is necessary in case the Decepticons return, a point of view with which Hot Rod disagrees vehemently. Given what happens during the story, I’d have to agree with Hot Rod’s point of view. There’s no real reason for the Autobots to be on Earth at this point. Meaning that everything that happens during this issue was unnecessary, rendering Prime’s poor judgment doubly tragic.

One of the things I don’t care for is the return of the old doubtful Optimus Prime, who is unsure of himself and his decisions. This characterization hearkens back to the old Marvel comics days where Prime constantly questioned his decisions and seemed at times unwilling to take decisive action. It may be that Hot Rod’s accusations hit home, and that the death of Ironhide hits really hard, but I’ve always preferred to see Prime portrayed as a confident leader, one who could realistically and believably inspire his troops. However, his decision to resign and to surrender to the humans is very interesting, and potentially very unwise given what happened to Sunstreaker at the hands of the Machination, and given how the humans have clearly been reverse-engineering Transformer technology for their own defense. Prime could turn out to be the latest resource in the human war against Transformers.

But resigning may well have been exactly the right thing to do. Clearly while Prime badly underestimates his human opponents, Spike has the measure of his. He’s either aware or gambles that the threat of death to Breakdown would draw out any hidden Transformers in the area. Spike outmaneuvers Prime and captures Prowl, who is then used as bait to draw in a rescue team. And incidentally, I’ve defended Prowl’s laudable respect for life that leads him to defend even a Decepticon, but as the logical tactician of the group he really should have seen this coming. His response is not typical of Prowl at all, and I may be forced to concede that it is indeed a case of bad characterization. However, the reveal that Streetwise was there with him is a nice surprise.

The art is excellent, as I’ve come to expect from Don Figeroa. There has been a lot of complaining about the new style, particularly the faces, but I’ve decided that I prefer the new look even to Don’s work from Dreamwave and earlier IDW stories. I really like the detail he’s put into the faces and joints of the robots. The colors are bright and almost cartoony in some cases, which is quite a contrast with the tone of the story itself.

So what’s the bottom line? Prime and Prowl mess up, Ironhide is killed during the rescue attempt, and Prime resigns as leader and surrenders to the humans. One would be hard pressed to argue that the pace of this issue is decompressed in any way. A lot happens and happens quickly, and that may be just what the series needs. I don’t entirely agree with the portrayal of some of the characters, or agree that they should even be where they are, but despite that the story successfully depicts a group of Autobots who don’t really know what to do now that the war is over and they are on the losing end. In searching for a purpose, they end up making things worse for themselves. I’m curious to see where things go from here. I can’t say I’m 100% enthused about the new direction, but I did enjoy it and I am interested in the story, so that’s enough to keep me reading.

[andersonh1]

Why yes it is. Cleverness + free time = this. Though, since I'm sorely lacking both...

While I can certainly Dom's point in regards to Prowl maybe sacrificing himself for Breakdown, I'll take this sorta behavior over, say, Sideswipe murdering an opponent who's most hostile action so far is to run so he isn't killed. Or, say, Prime executing a defeated enemy (who, again, was just like "Oh, crap, it's the Autobots! RUN!!"). I'll take "Heroic" Autobots over "Pragmatic" ones.

Anyway, let's look at it this way. While we don't know Breakdown in this story, previous iterations of this character don't make him out to be the worst of the Decepticons. He's a guy that tends to exhibit some extremely paranoid tendencies (Everyone, everything, is always watching him) and as such makes some bad decisions based on that. Admittedly, his running with the Stunticons kinda indicates a profoundly flawed character outside of the mental illness, but he still hardly seems to be the worst of that crew. Now, if it were Motormaster or Wildrider about to be executed by the humans, Prowl may well have been less interested in jumping to their defense.

Also: more Stunticons, please. I do not care one whit if they ever combine into Mensasor, I've just always liked those guys.

Agreed on all counts.

[Dominic]

But the art is soooo purty.


Jokimg aside, Figueroa's art is pretty much the only thing I liked about this issue.

Prowl's ethics are reprehensible. It is not a question of his self-preservation. It is a question of him breaking rank on behalf of an enemy. By saving Breakdown, against both standing and stated orders, Prowl is assigning higher priority to a Decepticon than his own faction.

I wonder where else besides Earth the Autobots could go. Unless things have changed since the end of AHM, the Decepticons are likely doing pretty well, meaning just travelling from point a to b would be hard.

I can see Prime having doubts. But, Prowl being stupid strikes me as bad RPG writing.


Dom
-oh, but the art. The art is beautiful.

[Shockwave]

See Dom? This is the perfect illustration of what I've been saying about character over message in the comics thread. Prowl is clearly being used as a literary tool and nothing else and it sucks. This is why writing has to start with the characters and build around that than "ooh! Look at me, I understand basic concepts of writing!" Sorry, but since that was what you guys got out of it, I couldn't resist the opportunity to further illustrate my point. /rant

Having said that, (and I've only read the previews at this point but will pick up the full ish tomorrow) here's what I got out of it and it all makes perfect sense: Spike is Sunstreaker now. He's trying to actively commit genocide (technocide?) on all TFs, Decepticon or Autobot. Prowl sees this and can't stand for it. He could give a shit about Breakdown, but he's not gonna stand by while his species is exterminated indiscriminantly. Which is the logical reaction (hey, if I saw that humanity was being exterminated just for being "humans" I'd start fighting too. Better to die fighting that sit around and just accept being killed). And Spike is, as Prowl observed, getting good at apprehending TFs, but is also apparently getting very good at manipulating them into revealing themselves, effectively making them easier targets. Also, Prowl wasn't sacraficing himself for Breakdown, he was ambushed, there's a distinct difference. Apparently at some point in this story Prime does the heroic thing and decides to sacrifice himself and possibly open negotiations with the "enemy". I fully expect that Prime will return to lead the Autobots and suspect that this is all part of some grand plan that he has and maybe just isn't telling the others about. I could be wrong, like I said I haven't read that part of it yet, but that's what I got out of Anderson's description.

[andersonh1]

I'll wait until you've picked up the issue to comment too extensively, but you're right about the ending. Prime resigns the command position and turns himself in to Skywatch, with the intention of trying to make peace.

And Prowl was ambushed. He gets shot in the back by a second group, disguised as police, not by the enemy he was facing. Human cowards!

But the art is soooo purty.

Jokimg aside, Figueroa's art is pretty much the only thing I liked about this issue.

Even if the plot itself doesn't grip you, there are other things to like besides the art, which I agree is excellent.
- the use of second or third string characters like Breakdown and Streetwise, something I'm always keen to see.
- the pace of the story. Maybe it's a reaction to (invalid) complaints that nothing happened in AHM, but a lot happens in a short time in this issue.
- by the same token, I appreciate Costa's effort to keep things interesting by including a number of events that really impact the characters. Ironhide's death, Prime's resignation, the genuine threat the humans pose to Transformers... all of these punctuate the story nicely and give us a good level of drama. The characters aren't just marking time here, there are genuine consequences when they act.

My only real problem with the issue is that so much of it is predicated on a tactical blunder by Prowl, the very character who is supposed to be the logical tactician. Everyone makes mistakes, but I still think that some other character would have been more likely to make that particular mistake.

But honestly, I've read the issue several times now, and I like it more than I did on the first read-through. It's a pretty good effort at setting up the status quo and giving the characters somewhere to go. Hardly perfect, but good. But I'd be lying if I said I wasn't expecting better characterization from here on. Costa will hopefully work the bugs out of the system and get a good handle on the characters, and we'll go on from there.

[Dominic]

This is the perfect illustration of what I've been saying about character over message in the comics thread. Prowl is clearly being used as a literary tool and nothing else and it sucks.

I still disagree. A character's value lies in their utility to the writer. The problem here is that you have a character defined one way and just being used another for no reason. Prowl's utility is that he is defined as being rational and (for the most part) morally sound. Defined characters are useful. But, the characters should still serve the writer and story, not the other way around.

The real problem here is that Costa wrote a story that required a character to act in a way that was both intellectually and morally backrupt . I cannot think of any G1 Autobots that this would make sense for. Brawn is stupid. But, he would not be likely to deliberately help a Decepticon. Mirage might, under the right circumstances. But, even that would be a stretch.

Costa is making a basic soft sci-fi mistake in that he is writing the characters to be as stupid or unprincipled as he needs them to be at any given time. (This was a big problem I had with "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and "Star Trek" at various points.)

Spike is Sunstreaker now. He's trying to actively commit genocide (technocide?) on all TFs, Decepticon or Autobot.

I see what you are saying, but disagree on one point.

Sunstreaker was, if only a bit, out of line.

Spike on the other hand is completely justified. In this series, the Transformers are an invasive and troublesome species that bring nothing to the ecosphere. Wiping them out is arguably incumbent.

The fact they could go somewhere else only further justifies killing the TFs on Earth. (The Autobots may have no place to go. But, that is not Spike's problem.)

Also, Prowl wasn't sacraficing himself for Breakdown, he was ambushed, there's a distinct difference.

Prowl did not intentionally get shot, but he did make himself known.

If Prowl were ambused, that would be one thing. But, he knew what he was doing. Standing up and saying "here I am", when surrounded by a bunch of guys with guns and orders to shoot you, is a idiotic move.

And, Prime surrendering to the humans was just a bone-headed move. As others have pointed out, TFs that are captured by humans tend to be poked and prodded. I can see Prime quitting. But, surrendering is the same as the blonde from a horror movie going into the dark room. (She deserves whatever happens to her at that point.)


Here is a Costa interview:

http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/ ... sta/17342/


Dom
-wonders if Prowl can join Sue Dibny and Speedy on the list of ruined characters now.

[Shockwave]

This is the perfect illustration of what I've been saying about character over message in the comics thread. Prowl is clearly being used as a literary tool and nothing else and it sucks.

I still disagree. A character's value lies in their utility to the writer. The problem here is that you have a character defined one way and just being used another for no reason. Prowl's utility is that he is defined as being rational and (for the most part) morally sound. Defined characters are useful. But, the characters should still serve the writer and story, not the other way around.

But what you've just sounds contradictory. Clearly Costa has a use for Prowl as a literary tool in this story and you've consistently said that that's all you care about in regards to characters, so by extension this should be right up your alley (especially since Costa seems to actually have something to say). This is what I've been saying in the comics thread, if a character's value only lies in their utility to the writer than why even bother defining them?

The real problem here is that Costa wrote a story that required a character to act in a way that was both intellectually and morally backrupt . I cannot think of any G1 Autobots that this would make sense for. Brawn is stupid. But, he would not be likely to deliberately help a Decepticon. Mirage might, under the right circumstances. But, even that would be a stretch.

Wait, defending yourself against a genocidal enemy is intellectually and morally bankrupt?

Costa is making a basic soft sci-fi mistake in that he is writing the characters to be as stupid or unprincipled as he needs them to be at any given time. (This was a big problem I had with "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and "Star Trek" at various points.)

Spike is Sunstreaker now. He's trying to actively commit genocide (technocide?) on all TFs, Decepticon or Autobot.

I see what you are saying, but disagree on one point.

Sunstreaker was, if only a bit, out of line.

Spike on the other hand is completely justified. In this series, the Transformers are an invasive and troublesome species that bring nothing to the ecosphere. Wiping them out is arguably incumbent.

The fact they could go somewhere else only further justifies killing the TFs on Earth. (The Autobots may have no place to go. But, that is not Spike's problem.)

Also, Prowl wasn't sacraficing himself for Breakdown, he was ambushed, there's a distinct difference.

Prowl did not intentionally get shot, but he did make himself known.

If Prowl were ambused, that would be one thing. But, he knew what he was doing. Standing up and saying "here I am", when surrounded by a bunch of guys with guns and orders to shoot you, is a idiotic move.

And, Prime surrendering to the humans was just a bone-headed move. As others have pointed out, TFs that are captured by humans tend to be poked and prodded. I can see Prime quitting. But, surrendering is the same as the blonde from a horror movie going into the dark room. (She deserves whatever happens to her at that point.)


Here is a Costa interview:

http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/ ... sta/17342/


Dom
-wonders if Prowl can join Sue Dibny and Speedy on the list of ruined characters now.

What's soft sci-fi?

Shockwave
-Has more replies to this, but it's time to go home now.

[Onslaught Six]

What's soft sci-fi?

Soft sci-fi is science fiction that doesn't rely too heavily on particulars--for example, if the TFs were to actually exist in real-world constructs, they would look and act severely different--and especially they wouldn't have metally movey faces. But it's soft sci-fi and doesn't abide strictly to the properties of the real world. Hard sci-fi, in comparison, takes all elements of real-world physics and methodology into account. Atomic Robo sort of pokes fun at this idea, mostly with Robo saying stuff like, "You can't have giant radioactive ants. They'd crush themselves," when clearly, right there are giant radioactive ants.

I'm probably not explaining it well enough, but hey, Wikipedia exists!