TF Views

The Matrix = Jerusalem....or The Temple Mount. It would have tremendous symbolic value. But, if you have it, others will want it.


The Autobots did not have much in the way of hope. They needed frequent pep-talks, and several had to be told to get back in line. They were fraying. Do you think Prowl and Ironhidea had that scuffle because things were going even tolerably?

After losing two guys, why would Megatron risk more casuzalties, and lower consequent moral, by sending more guys on a (from his perspective) redundant mission to harass an already beaten enemy?

Dom

Dominic wrote:The Matrix = Jerusalem....or The Temple Mount. It would have tremendous symbolic value. But, if you have it, others will want it.

And still, I don't see that they indicate anywhere in this story it actually has that level of importance. Obviously Kup, Jazz, Prowl and Ratchet don't want the other Autobots to know Megatron has it, but they haven't done anything to explain why. With moral as low at it is already, it's wouldn't be a smart move to give them more bad news either way. Nor have they explained how it's because of the Matrix the war started (given "Megatron:Origin" doesn't say anything about it), or why after a couple chances to take the Matrix, Megatron only just now took it.

The Autobots did not have much in the way of hope. They needed frequent pep-talks, and several had to be told to get back in line. They were fraying. Do you think Prowl and Ironhidea had that scuffle because things were going even tolerably?

After losing two guys, why would Megatron risk more casuzalties, and lower consequent moral, by sending more guys on a (from his perspective) redundant mission to harass an already beaten enemy?

I'm not denying the Autobots didn't have much hope. Obviously it was a bleak situation and moral was extremely low, not to mention distrust with the knowledge a traitor was in their ranks. No, I'm saying they still had a shred of hope with Optimus still alive, if only barely, and the fact that if they could just get off the planet, they could still do something about The Decepticons. And even if Optimus had been online at the time, I'd think the Autobot's would still be getting frequent pep talks.

Even with how unlikely it was, there was still a chance the Autobot's could (and no surprise, eventually do) come back. It's the classic bad guy cliche. Send the good guys off to some fate and assume they're dead/going to die, only to have them come back stronger than before and beat you.

Sparky Prime wrote:And still, I don't see that they indicate anywhere in this story it actually has that level of importance.

...But then, like, right after, like in the next sentence:

Obviously Kup, Jazz, Prowl and Ratchet don't want the other Autobots to know Megatron has it, but they haven't done anything to explain why. With moral as low at it is already, it's wouldn't be a smart move to give them more bad news either way.

...So that, like, clearly doesn't give you a hint as to the Matrix being at least *kind of* important? If it was as inconsequential as you're trying to point out, then they would have told the Autobots and nothing would change. The very fact that they're trying to keep this fact away from them shows that the Matrix is at least *somewhat* important to them, if even only on a symbolic level.

Remember TFTM? Remember when Galvatron took the Matrix from Magnus? That was a big thing, because The Matrix Was Important, Dammit. And if anything, it could be argued that TFTM gives even *less* context for the Matrix being important since it just kind of shows up there--with Megs Origin, we have 23 years or so of The Matrix Being Kind Of Important. It's important to the Autobots simply on the basis of 'being the Matrix.'

I mean, yes, this is IDW G1, but it's still *G1,* and The Matrix is still important.

Nor have they explained how it's because of the Matrix the war started (given "Megatron:Origin" doesn't say anything about it)

I will admit that this is a small hole, but it's one minor line of dialogue that Kup blurts out as, honestly, Vague Speech Prose. I do the same thing with my 'own' writing--you play fast and loose with *details* for the sake of making someone's speech sound really cool.

or why after a couple chances to take the Matrix, Megatron only just now took it.

BW Megatron knew where the Ark was for a good bit of Season 2, so why did he only wait until Agenda to try and kill Prime? Because he had other ideas for how to change history. When those didn't work out, he resorted to Agenda.

This is similar. Megs clearly had other plans for taking down the Autobots, and when those didn't work, he put this one into motion.

I'm not denying the Autobots didn't have much hope. Obviously it was a bleak situation and moral was extremely low, not to mention distrust with the knowledge a traitor was in their ranks. No, I'm saying they still had a shred of hope with Optimus still alive, if only barely, and the fact that if they could just get off the planet, they could still do something about The Decepticons. And even if Optimus had been online at the time, I'd think the Autobot's would still be getting frequent pep talks.

Obviously, they didn't have that shred of hope because Prime could die at any moment. And they *couldn't* get off the planet. That's the entire point of AHM--the Autobots have lost hope.

Now, whether you think it's *believable* or not that they have lost hope is your own issue.

Even with how unlikely it was, there was still a chance the Autobot's could (and no surprise, eventually do) come back. It's the classic bad guy cliche. Send the good guys off to some fate and assume they're dead/going to die, only to have them come back stronger than before and beat you.

And as 'great' as it is, the core plot of AHM is pretty cliche in and of itself. I knew from Issue 1 that Prime was going to wake up down the line, give a rousing speech to the Autobots, and then they were going to head back to Earth and they kick everyone's ass. It's cliche, but when it happened I was still excited, because of all the good build-up. I kept 'waiting' for Prime to come back. Every issue, it's like, "Okay, is this the one where he comes back? No, no it is not. Well, okay, next month, maybe?"

The only reason that you expect the Autobots to come back though is that you know this is a comic. If this was "real", or you were in the comic, you would not expect the Autobots to bounce back. Stranding them with no resources would be plenty enough to call them beaten.

Dom

Dominic wrote:The only reason that you expect the Autobots to come back though is that you know this is a comic. If this was "real", or you were in the comic, you would not expect the Autobots to bounce back. Stranding them with no resources would be plenty enough to call them beaten.

Dom

You know, the thing I love most about All Hail Megatron is how gratuitous and reverant its fanboy gush moments are. The Decepticons destroy cities, and it's awesome. You know they're the bad guys, and that's bad, and it would surely be horrifying, but watching my favourite characters blow things up on the scale of the movie gives me the payoff the hype never did. And then, after the Autobots were just at breaking point, Omega Supreme shows up as Deus Ex Machina. His excuse for this, and surviving the inevitably horrific Decepticon attacks, is "I AM OMEGA SUPREME."

And this is not just an acceptable explanation, it's fantastic. Because, damnit, he 'is' Omega Supreme, and we love him for it.

McCarthy doesn't just indulge in those moments the way many writers do. He's not simply catering to a crowd. He finds them just as awesome as we do, and that means a lot.

The thing that carries AHM is that it is more than just fannish moments like that though.

Yeah, the Decepticons are wiping out a city. But, in AHM, there is a reason beyond the fact that "they iz teh bad guyz". Even Omega showing up carries a bit more weight.

Dom

That too. Mind, the expectation of Prime coming back and the Autobots' victory isn't a *bad* one here, like it is with, say, the current Batman situation. The Autobots are being put down specifically so they can rise back up, but in Batman's case, it just seems like killing him for the sake of drawing in readers, and then bringing him back later.

...It's a hard difference to get across, but it's there.

And, Batman is being killed as part of Morrison's statement about bad comics.....which consists of bad comics.

McCarthy is not writing bad comics about bad comics, which makes AHM much more honest than "Batman RIP".

Dom

Onslaught Six wrote:...So that, like, clearly doesn't give you a hint as to the Matrix being at least *kind of* important?

Not in the "holy religious object that represents leadership" or that the Decepticons claim victory sense, no. Like I said, the Autobot's moral was already low, and obviously they didn't want to give them more bad news.

Remember TFTM? Remember when Galvatron took the Matrix from Magnus? That was a big thing, because The Matrix Was Important, Dammit.

There they said it was the only thing that could stop Unicron. Here... Well we don't know what it is here.

BW Megatron knew where the Ark was for a good bit of Season 2, so why did he only wait until Agenda to try and kill Prime? Because he had other ideas for how to change history. When those didn't work out, he resorted to Agenda.

This is similar. Megs clearly had other plans for taking down the Autobots, and when those didn't work, he put this one into motion.

I don't see this as being similar at all. BW Megs wanted to try his own shot at conquering Cybertron before he enacted the original Megatron's plans to tamper with the timeline. In this comic, Kup tells us Megatron apparently wanted to take the Matrix from the start of the war, and I don't see any reason why he wouldn't until now.

Obviously, they didn't have that shred of hope because Prime could die at any moment. And they *couldn't* get off the planet. That's the entire point of AHM--the Autobots have lost hope.

You miss the point.... Prime could die, but he was still alive. Still had a shot to recover, and so the Autobots still had hope. And then all they needed was a ride off the planet which conveniently shows up.

Dominic wrote:The only reason that you expect the Autobots to come back though is that you know this is a comic. If this was "real", or you were in the comic, you would not expect the Autobots to bounce back. Stranding them with no resources would be plenty enough to call them beaten.

That's debatable. There are plenty of comic stories where the "good guys" don't exactly win and the status quo isn't restored to the way it was. Marvel's "Civil War" for example.

Sparky Prime wrote:There they said it was the only thing that could stop Unicron. Here... Well we don't know what it is here.

It's the fucking Matrix! What else needs to be said about it at this point? Like I said before: We've had 23 years since the Matrix's introduction (or 25 if we're counting the Creation Matrix) to know what it's about and what it's for. It doesn't *need* any explanation. It'd be like if, in The Dark Knight Returns, Frank Miller spent time actually explaining who Superman was and what his powers and origin are. He doesn't, because he doesn't have to--Superman simply 'shows up' and we already know everything about him because he's fucking Superman.

I don't see this as being similar at all. BW Megs wanted to try his own shot at conquering Cybertron before he enacted the original Megatron's plans to tamper with the timeline. In this comic, Kup tells us Megatron apparently wanted to take the Matrix from the start of the war, and I don't see any reason why he wouldn't until now.

The only thing we're ever given indicating the Matrix is the cause of the war is Kup's own word. Since then, nobody has brought it up and it hasn't been relevant. I don't see why you keep bringing this point up when it was referenced one time--a *throwaway* reference, for God's sake--and never brought up again.

You miss the point.... Prime could die, but he was still alive. Still had a shot to recover, and so the Autobots still had hope. And then all they needed was a ride off the planet which conveniently shows up.

But he also could die! That's the point you're missing. Perhaps it's your own bias here, but I think it's perfectly reasonable for them to lose hope when their Fearless Awesome Leader has a very slim chance of survival.

Dominic wrote:That's debatable. There are plenty of comic stories where the "good guys" don't exactly win and the status quo isn't restored to the way it was. Marvel's "Civil War" for example.

You're going to try and argue mainstream comics...with Dom? Good luck, is all I say.