TF Views

BWprowl wrote:You wha? I don't know if you noticed, but "Good Guys Win" hasn't exactly been a recurring theme in this series. The entire idea is that it's hopeless, and that the arrival of newly-badass-Kup and the Neo-Wreckers does nothing to help them only reinforces that feeling.

I never said anything about "good guys win". All I said was that I believe they should have had some *hint* of salvation for the Autobots by now. A ship. Some energon. A way to fix Optimus. Something. ANYthing to move the plot along.

So you don't think that an Autobot, an 'Old Guard' guy who's supposed to embody the best of their ideals, deliberately going after one of his own comrades and nearly beating him to death to be that significant? Dude, that's *never* happened before in TF. You know what has happened before? Epic battles across multiple planets with bad guys from ANOTHER WORLD!

Ironhide is a known hot head and as such is more prone to reacting rather than thinking. It's just someone like Optimus usually held him back from something like this before.

Again, the entire point is that the Decepticons are unsure of what they're doing next. Yeah, they're sitting around bored, but that's what they *should* be doing. It's natural behavior in their situation. Meanwhile, the humans actually are moving their part of the story along quite nicely. We've got the resistance groups who are on the run in the subway, and you know the plot thread with Spike is going to pick up in the next couple issues, right? Probably about the same time the Europeans go through with their plan to nuke New York.

Following the continuity of the "-ion" books, the Decepticons have apparently systematically conquered planets before. So why is it that now with Earth that they have no direction and have become bored? Megatron has suggested he has some plans but we're still stuck waiting to see what that might be. That's the problem. We've been stuck waiting for 6 issues. And honestly I don't care about the human resistance. We've already seen how ineffective they've been and I doubt humans could ever defeat an army of Decepticons with out help.

See? Stuff is happening. Just beacause there's no HYOOGE EPIKK shake-ups to the status quo, doesn't mean the plot isn't going anywhere.

I never said it had to be something epic to move the plot. But characters sitting around fighting each other because they're directionless or bored for 6 issues is no plot.

Dominic wrote:I think what Sparky is complaining about here is that the fans should not have to do the kind of editing you mention.

Right. That and I think the pacing of AHM is too slow.

AHM seem "written to fit" in places. But, that can be said about pretty much any title on the market today, as nearly everybody is writing for the 6-issue compilation. And, the story does read better in one sitting. Even the "slow" scenes detailing the the Decepticons blowing the hell out of cities work better, giving a sense of scale rather than just seeming like random action scenes.

Following the continuity of the "-ion" books, the Decepticons have apparently systematically conquered planets before. So why is it that now with Earth that they have no direction and have become bored? Megatron has suggested he has some plans but we're still stuck waiting to see what that might be. That's the problem. We've been stuck waiting for 6 issues. And honestly I don't care about the human resistance. We've already seen how ineffective they've been and I doubt humans could ever defeat an army of Decepticons with out help.

The vibe I am getting here, (based on things characters have said, as well as "flash-back" scenes), is that the Decepticons have taken most if not all the important planets, leaving them with little to do. It is important for Megatron to keep them busy while finding them some other long-term project.


Ironhide slapping Mirage around is significant. Ironhide may not be a deep thinker, but he is hardly a thug, (like say...Cliffjumper). Aside from the movie, Ironhide has consistently been shown to be even tempered and non-violent. (Remember the 4th issue of the old Marvel run? Ironhide was one of the guys saying "go easy on the humans", while Jazz and others were ready to kill Witwicky.) Even in the IDW context, Ironhide is one of the more even-tempered guys. Thus, showing him attacking Mirage gives a sense of scale for the trouble the Autobots are facing. (And, yes, I am willing to assume that McCarthy is being deliberte in using Ironhide this way, as AHM seems to be pretty well planned out.)


Dom

quoted from a merged thread:

[quote=O86]

Just read AHM #3. I'm rather enjoying this. Not a fan of the main continuity IDW stuff, I've only been picking at spotlights here and there, but AHM struck me as neat from the first propaganda poster campaign.

Firstly, it's a hilarious concept. This is, essentially, doing the same thing Hardwired got ever so poo-pooed for. It takes Transformers and makes them Epic and Violent. Only in the wake of the movie, that's much more acceptable, apparently. I liked Hardwired, so nyer.

We're looking here at the deliciously blatant fanwank version of the movie's style. "Wouldn't it be cool if the big badass giant robots killed everyone?" Contrasted with standard sympathetic elements and small, touching moments of humanity to illustrate it all. To their credit, I'd actually imagined a few of the scenarios depicted in the first three issues (Astrotrain springs to mind, though I'd not thought it out quite that cleverly), and that impressed me. The large-scale destruction our favourite evil robots are capable of is getting a spotlight of its own, and it revels in its gratuitousness.

Starscream shot down Airforce One - that's a lovely piece of social commentary if I've ever seen one - the focus on pop culture trivialities over politics. Nutshelled and then some, very cute. I like.
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[/quote]



"Hardwired" was trash. It was devoid of ideas beyond, "hey, over the top violence to show how sophisticated we are". Nobody even proofread the damned thing, probably because nobody with qualifications to work at a publisher could stand reading this thing if they had any other work they could bill for.

Hell, I will say "Hardwired" was worse than the movie. (The movie at least brought a few new things to the table.)

I am willing to give, if only by virtue of the benefit of the doubt, this book a bit more credit than O86 is. (Though the credit he is giving it seems to be enough for him.) If the premise of this book and/or Megatron's plan, are not illustrated a bit more clearly, (as something worthwhile) in the next issue or 2 though, I will write this off as more filler from IDW.

I do not see the pop-culture reference in shooting down AF1. It was a simple "kill the leader move" that I would expect to see in any story about putting down a population. I do agree that the lack of political commentary is refreshing. TF has generally been pretty good about that, even to the point of getting basics wrong. (I am looking at US Defense *Minister* Dawson having a uniform, despite being constitutionally mandated to be a civilian, in DW volume 1.)


[quote=O86]

All Hail Megatron" and "Doubledealer"
by onslaught86 on Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:25 am

"Hardwired" was trash. It was devoid of ideas beyond, "hey, over the top violence to show how sophisticated we are"

I wholeheartedly disagree, and found it vastly more engaging that the Dreamwave comics of the same time. G1 V1 was trash. Worth it for the scene with Starscream and the priest alone.

I am willing to give, if only by virtue of the benefit of the doubt, this book a bit more credit than O86 is. (Though the credit he is giving it seems to be enough for him.) If the premise of this book and/or Megatron's plan, are not illustrated a bit more clearly, (as something worthwhile) in the next issue or 2 though, I will write this off as more filler from IDW.

It's a soft, very decompressed plot, but it's a welcome change from cramped comics, and even if the plot's action movie depth, I still like action movies.

I do not see the pop-culture reference in shooting down AF1. It was a simple "kill the leader move" that I would expect to see in any story about putting down a population.

Moreso that it was Starscream that did it, and that it was practically a side note. Megs didn't care. Even if unintentional, it's a delcious candy-coated metaphor.

[/quote]

The priest scene in "Hardwired" came off as just thrown in as a half-assed "look, we are like old Star Trek" moment. Maybe if Ciencin did something with it other than use it as a set-up for the next bloated action scene, I would have given it to him.

DW volume 1 was pretty good. There was a "use of power" theme running through it. (Though I will grant it worked better in "Armada".) Saracinni deviated from past TF stories, (some Autobots having doubts, etc), which earned him the ire of may old time fans. But, he could write a good story, if only in the context of the genre. The problem is that in issue 6 he made a few mistakes I would find irksome but tolerable from a child.

For "All Hail Megatron" to be good, it needs to have more than a "stuff w'ot happens" plot. A child can write one of those. In theory, a child could do as well as an adult with one of those. For it to actually be good, as in "good enough to justify me reading it for reasons other than habit", it needs ideas.

I am pretty sure that the AF1 scene was not intended to be anything other than what it was, the Decepticons subduing resistance. IDW's most political TF moment, the Chechnya/Georgia proxy in "Escalation", was still pretty understated. (If not for Furman being from the UK, and thus more likely to be in tune with international news and hostile towards Russia, I would have probably written that off as coincidence.) Calling it a "metaphor" for anything is likely assigning it too much priority.

Dom

Re: "All Hail Megatron" and "Doubledealer"
by Gomess on Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:31 pm

As a denizen of this sceptred isle, I can assure you most of us place America well before Russia on our stereotypical list of disliked countries. France is first, apparently. I always liked it.

Anyhoo, since when have any of the aforementioned writers cared about thematic continuity? You give the franchise a little too much credit, Dom...

*Remembers the good ol' days of "Change...? Change! That's IT!" Ego Puff Points for whomever gets that reference in less than five seconds*

Thematic consistency has been a semi-regular thing. Leadership, power and such are common. Free-will turned up an awful lot in the beast years. Furman's early US run, under Tokar, had a medical ethics thread running through it, (Ratchet/Megatron and Grimlock with the nucleon). Saracinni is not as under-credited as Budiansky, but he also gets short shrift. Furman has even made respectable showings in some of the "Spotlight" one-shots, back when they were one-shots.

'Change"= a reference to what the franchise was about before it started looking backward.

I know the UK, like most of Europe, does not like the US. But, if I recall, "Escalation" came out after the Litvenenko brouhaha, when the UK pitched a hissy fit over the murder of a guy who was, well, kind of asking for it. (Yes, I know, UK citizen on paper, and in London, but c'mon people!) I may have been misreading it for that reason. But, like I said, it might also have been coincidence. Furman himself seems pretty apolitical though, in contrast to O'Neill or Peter David.

Dom
-Vladimir Poppins: A spoonful of polonium makes your enemies go down, your enemies go down, enemies go down. A spoonful of polonium makes your enemies go dooowwwoooowwn...... In the most spectacular ways.

by Gomess on Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:28 pm
Ahh, it'd be a shame if Furman let something like that influence his writing. Most 'real' people didn't really care; "MI6" is an instant turn-off word for the general populace. The UK's in a climate lately where as soon as you start talking about things that are out of 'our hands', we stop listening.

Power to the people, it seems. If only we had a socialist party in the running, that'd be interesting to see.

Anyways. Yeah, change. It would be awesome if we could say that change is the One True Theme of TF, but, it really isn't... But then, one looks at how much the aesthetics have changed, from G1 to BM, then to Armada, then to the Movie and Animated... maybe there's hope. But like I once had a Quintesson say in a fic, "For a species so preocuppied with transformation, they are awfully resistant to change...!"

-Gom
Is almost entirely apolitical, but not for want of knowledge.

by BWprowl on Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:08 am
Y'know, I used to be of the opinion that Change was the constant, central theme of TF, but lately, I'm starting to think that that honor might actually go to things Being More Than They Appear. More than meets the eye, as it were. Animated, especially, has played this up as of late.

Skywarp17 on Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:10 pm

Gotta put myself firmly in the pro-AHM camp.
Compared to Furman's work of late, the characters actually have.....character, rather than being a bunch of robots who apparantly have their own personalities but all speak and behave the same way. The bit with Cliffjumper had me laughing out loud. Just sitting there, watching a little light, waiting for action. Yep, that's Cliffjumper, allright

by onslaught86 on Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:10 am

Yes, the Autobot issue struck me as feeling rushed compared to the previous three, and a slightly painful shift of pace and focus. It's good to see what the Autobots have been up to, to be sure, and I too appreciated the Cliffjumper moment. A lot of the interactions are enjoyable, the characters have good dynamic. I almost fear it'll nosedive from here on out, as we get to deal with the Look It's A New Character. Hmm. Skeptical, but I've enjoyed it so far, so benefit of the doubt and whatnot.

by onslaught86 on Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:10 am

Yes, the Autobot issue struck me as feeling rushed compared to the previous three, and a slightly painful shift of pace and focus. It's good to see what the Autobots have been up to, to be sure, and I too appreciated the Cliffjumper moment. A lot of the interactions are enjoyable, the characters have good dynamic. I almost fear it'll nosedive from here on out, as we get to deal with the Look It's A New Character. Hmm. Skeptical, but I've enjoyed it so far, so benefit of the doubt and whatnot.

It is not so much that the issue itself was rushed as it was placed unevenly in the larger story.

We just had 3, at times meandering, issues that were more or less entirely focused on Decepticons. Then, we got this issue, with a scene change, and it was abrupt.

Dom
-still needs to review this in more detail, along with "Spotlight: Blurr"

All Hail Megatron issue 6:
The pacing issues that plague this series continue, with this being a "explore the theme and move things along" outing. The obligatory fight scene reads a bit like a "this sounded like a good idea for an RPG session", but seems to have some thematic cohesion. The scenes with the Decepticons are especially good. Skywarp is written as a frat-boy, making is possible to rationally comprehend how somebody like Thundercracker could deal with him. As for Thundercracker, this series is probably the best official handling of Thundercracker in an extended story. Little touches seen in the art from previous issues are addressed more directly here.
Grade: A This series is hitting the half-way point, and with only a few serious stumbles, is shaping up to be worth picking up. But, at this point, it may be worth waiting for the compilation.

by Sparky Prime on Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:27 pm



An A? Really? After 6 issues, I really had hoped this series would have gone somewhere by now. Instead with the pacing they've been going with, I feel like they should be back on issue 1 or 2, not half way through the 12 issue run. Not to mention some serious continuity issues. The Matrix is the reason the war started? Funny, that never came up in Megatron: Origin. And if Megatron's goal was to get the Matrix and he has apparently killed the previous two Primes, why didn't he claim it when he killed one of them? Or when he was squeezing Optimus's spark in 'Escalation' and left him for dead? Personally, I'm tired of waiting for something to actually happen in this series. I doubt that I'll pick up the next 6 issues.

by Onslaught Six on Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:22 pm

I'm betting the next six issues will actually go ahead and address these continuity flub-ups, but I think the real reason it's happening at all is that they wanted to just start fresh and not worry about all the crap IDW already did, even if some of it was really cool. I'm viewing AHM as an isolated continuity for now, screw worrying about how it fits in.

And also screw Megatron Origin period.

Sparky Prime on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm


I thought Megatron Origin was actually a pretty good story. And it also had quite a bit of story progression in each issue, unlike AHM. And I doubt they'll cover (all) continuity inconsistencies. Seems to me McCarthy is doing things his own way regardless of what came before. To me, if something is supposed to be set in an established continuity, the writer should work that into their story, not ignore it and make up their own stuff instead.

BWprowl on Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:21 am

Frankly, the pacing in AHM isn't nearly as bad as it was back in 'Devastation', which was just frustrating. AHM is a bit methodical, to be sure, but remember that it's a twelve-issue Maxi-Series. It's taking it's time, but if you ask me, it definitely knows where it's going with all this. I get the feeling that it'll read a LOT better as a Trade (one reason I plan on picking up the trades). The main sticking point for me is that, in a series that's supposed to be showing how hardcore awesome the Decepticons are, the best parts have been with the Autobots on Cybertron. But whatchagonnado? At the least, I dug the scene with Skywarp and Bombshell. And I'm tempted to rewrite all the word bubbles to have them arguing over which one of them is Cyclonus.

onslaught86 on Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:41 am

And with the sixth issue of AHM having recently moved from my "To Read" list to my "Read It" list, I continue to find this series excellent fun. It embodies almost everything I love about Transformers on some level. I just wish for the sake of everyone else that it was completely separate from the IDW universe.

Dare say a good chunk of my enjoying AHM in its own right is because I just can't bring myself to 'care' about the main IDW continuity. It always felt flippant and meandering to me, like it tried to be one thing, gave up, tried to be something else, and didn't manage that either. Dreamwave had a sense of cohesion, IDW lost its appeal to me when Stormbringer wandered along and the spotlights started..not being spotlights.

So, with my never having felt like the IDW universe was a whole at all, AHM being its own entity sits absolutely fine with me. Sorry guys, I couldn't care less about Verity and Hunter, I'm more interested in exploring the concept of what Peace Through Tyranny means to Megatron himself, as well as the other Decepticons.

Sparky Prime on Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:17 pm

BWprowl wrote:
Frankly, the pacing in AHM isn't nearly as bad as it was back in 'Devastation', which was just frustrating.


Granted I thought the pacing could have been faster in 'Devastation' as well, but only being a 6 issue arc, it had to move faster than AHM is as a 12 issue arc.



onslaught86 wrote:
So, with my never having felt like the IDW universe was a whole at all, AHM being its own entity sits absolutely fine with me.


I'd probably like it a little more if it was its own entity, but it is supposed to be part of the rest of the IDW continuity.

There is precedent for the Matrix being absent when Megatron needs it, and I assume that is at play here. I assume things like the Decepticons changing their alternate forms, Kup being something other than a raving loon, and exactly what happened to the Autobots will be addressed later.

I disagree about "the best parts" focusing on the Autobots. The scene in issue 6 with Skywarp and Thundercracker is one of my favorites in the TF comic in a long time.


Dom
-amazed to like a comic more than Sparky.

Dominic wrote:There is precedent for the Matrix being absent when Megatron needs it, and I assume that is at play here. I assume things like the Decepticons changing their alternate forms, Kup being something other than a raving loon, and exactly what happened to the Autobots will be addressed later.

What precedent? Prime carries the Matrix and Megs has killed 2 (apparently) and had a couple opportunities to take it from Optimus. So if the Matrix is the reason the war started as Kup said, then why didn't Megatron take it with the first opportunity he had?

And I highly doubt they'll actually explain why several characters are suddenly in new forms or why characters behavior has changed since the last time we saw them.

Dom
-amazed to like a comic more than Sparky.

It is a switch...

I may be mixing in elements of "War Within", but I think IDW Megatron tried and failed to take the Matrix during "Escalation".

Dom

Dominic wrote:I may be mixing in elements of "War Within", but I think IDW Megatron tried and failed to take the Matrix during "Escalation".

Megatron did smash his fist into Prime's chest and squeezed his spark in an attempt to kill him, but he made no attempt to take the Matrix from him then. Megatron actually left Optimus alone when he thought he succeeded in killing Prime.

Even in 'Megatron: Origin', we see Megatron has ripped a hole through Sentinel Prime's chest, but Megatron didn't take the Matrix then either.

Y'know, it could just be that Kup's got his history wrong. Hell, maybe it's misinformation spread by the High Autobot Elder Leader Senator Council or whatever. After all, "This evil dude wants to steal the Matrix" is a heck of a better story for why they're fighting a planet-destroying war than "There's a bunch of disgruntled laborers that we pretty much forced into a violent rebellion and now want to take out to save our own hides". In this case, maybe Megatron only recently actually thought of taking the Matrix.