Shattered Glass review

[Sparky Prime]

Not really. Those versions of the characters you jsut described would be...just what we would get. There wouldn't be much more to it than those little sentences you just typed. It would be as stirring a character distortion as "Heroic loyal Starscream who types on a computer". Like I said, Dinobot and Rampage have dynamics that they could actually get creative with, not to mention there's some interesting ambiguity in which side they would end up on.

Well that's your opinion. The dynamics would all depend on the writer and how much attention they give the character. That'd also apply to Dinobot and Rampage. But I still say they could have a lot of fun with mirror versions of the BW characters.

[Onslaught Six]

See, maybe I'm just not getting the whole "mirror universe" concept, but it was 'my' understanding of the concept that the core character 'personalities' did not change, but rather, that they were the same 'bots in a different circumstance. Thus, what 'I' probably would've written Shattered Glass Starscream as is more along the lines of an Autobot who believes his leader, Megatron, is well past his prime (Oh the pun!) and instead facilitates certain...elements to put his leader in danger. Similarly, Megatron believes that the world will be better when it is no longer under the control of the tyrannical Autobots, and will stop at nothing to see them all eradicated and/or imprisoned.

...It's hard to explain, since those very much sound like descriptions of the originals rather than some kind of crazy mirror-universe concept, but the way I'm envisioning it, they very much Are different. It probably helps that I already tend to paint the Decepticons in a semi-heroic--or at least sympathetic--light in my own ideas. They're not a band of mindless murderers and rapists, after all. They're a bunch of outcasts and rejected military hardware who are only good at the thing they were built to do--wage war. So when there is no war, they have nothing to do, and thus, they get next to no support from the Autobot government, leading them to go ahead and rebel. And that's in 'regular' continuity.

Shattered Glass sucks.

[Dominic]

Here is an example of what I meant, using the most disfuntional merge-team of all, Menasor.

What I am going for here is keeping a defining trait of character, but changing their moral allignment. Obviously, this implies that morality determines what we do with skills and traits, but is not determined *by* those traits.

First, we need to look at the Stunticons, and their traits.

Motormaster: Nasty temper, and more than something of a bully. Enjoys tormenting his troops.
Deadend: Confident he will die terribly, likely in the near future, and vain enough to see this as a tragedy. A pessimist.
Breakdown: Paranoid.
Wildrider: Chaotic. A bit of a loon.
Dragstrip: Hyper-competitive.

Menasor: The psychological train-wreck one might expect from combining the above guys.


Now, we morally invert these guys.

Motormaster has drive. He is not very creative, but he wants his team to excel. He is a tough, but fair "coach". (For whatever reason, I am seeing a sports-theme here.) He main contribution to the team is that he can inspire them if given an over-all plan to follow, and to guide their often fractious efforts.

Deadend: When Motormaster outlines a plan, Deadend is usually one of the first to point out a problem or concern. This has become something of a constant, and Mototmaster learns to account for these concerns (often by questioning Megatron or Starscream) before pitching an idea to the team. Deadend's pessimism is especially useful in tactical terms, but can affect morale over time. Deadend wants to do well, but expects to do otherwise.

Dragstrip: He is ambitious, and driven. Very much a type-A kinda guy. Warfare, sports, origami, ballet, whatever, he wants to be the best there is at what he does. Once he starts a job, he will do his best at it, even when the best is too much. (For example, one does not always have to walk with style. He sees Motormaster's orders as challenges, and consistently rises to them. He pushes his comrades, if only to make them de facto competitors. Can be distracted with discursive challenges.

Breakdown: A lifetime of observation and recon has left him more than a bit paranoid. While Deadend simply assumes the worse will happen, Breakdown will try to develop a contingency plan, then anticipate the counter to that contingency, and how he would counter the counter to his contingency. Has been known to sit for hours, stairing at a chess board, never getting more than a few moves into any game (against himself) before he gives up. Often paralyzed by self-doubt.

Wildrider: While Breakdown over-plans, Wildrider does not plan at all. Prone to distraction, Wildrider usually does not plan for the long term. Under Motormaster's supervision, Wildrider is able to follow and long term plan. His talent for improvising, (often with spectacular, if expensive, results), has saved the team on more than one occasion. But, his unorthodox methods can endanger comrades, or place him in danger. Luckily, his comrades, especially Breakdown, can usually plan for Wildrider's more extreme antics.


Menasor: Combines Motormaster's personality, Dragstip's drive to win, Deadends cautious pessimism, Breakdown's capacity for introspection and Wildrider's talent for improvisation. Becomes antsy if kept idle for too long, but does well when given a task.

The trick is to do this without turning it into something like "Earth 2", which is way the heck over-drawn.



Okay, here is some homework for O6. Do this for the Combaticons. Think of the economics of war and instability, false-firing studies, and the humane case for "shock and awe" when applied correctly.

Dom

[Onslaught Six]

Okay, here is some homework for O6. Do this for the Combaticons. Think of the economics of war and instability, false-firing studies, and the humane case for "shock and awe" when applied correctly.

Oh, wow, homework! I haven't done that since high school!

...And I'm in college!

[Sparky Prime]

See, maybe I'm just not getting the whole "mirror universe" concept, but it was 'my' understanding of the concept that the core character 'personalities' did not change, but rather, that they were the same 'bots in a different circumstance.

No, there really is a personality change in a 'mirror universe' setting. I think Star Trek's "Mirror, Mirror" episode is a good example given we see the Enterprise in the same situation, same circumstances, trying to negotiate with a peaceful planet for dilithium, but how differently each universe reacts when they are refused, among other things. The other Mirror-verse episodes of Trek I also think do a pretty good job of highlighting differences in character personalities but we really don't see the same situation happen in the normal universe given "Mirror, Mirror" is the only episode in which events between in the universes is the same.

[BWprowl]

See, the thing is, they COULD actually play up the whole moral ambiguity angle with Beast Wars like this. Think about it: The Predacons were really only 'Evil' because they were presented as descendents of the Decepticons. But check out the actions of Megatron's group- they lived an oppressed existence on Cybertron, so they got themselves on a ship and followed information they had gotten to a place where they might get the resources they needed to overthrow their oppressors. Sounds...kinda like the G1 Autobots, doesn't it? If anything, I'd say that Megatron and his group see themselves as the 'Heroic' figures in the series' conflict.

So what would we get out of this in SG context? Evil Primal and crew going to Earth to kill Megatron to end their oppression at the hands of the 'Heroic' Predacons? How does that make them any different than the regualr universe Predacons? Who can really call themselves the 'Good Guys' in either conflict? See, THIS is the sort of thing Evil Alternate Universes should be used to make us think about, rather than "Look! It's a completely redone origin story with the Autobots painted as unquestionably evil and the plot is still generic Transformers!"

This is ALSO why I hate hate HATE Megatron's "Evil TRIUMPHS!" line from the end of 'The Agenda'. WHY?!!

[Sparky Prime]

But check out the actions of Megatron's group- they lived an oppressed existence on Cybertron, so they got themselves on a ship and followed information they had gotten to a place where they might get the resources they needed to overthrow their oppressors.

How exactly are the Predacons being oppressed though? The Maximals really aren't the cruel oppressive type. So what, they wont let the Predacons get the energon they need to restart the Great Wars? The Predacons appear to just view the fact that the Maximals are in power and that they wont let them fight, conquer and rule as an "oppression". We also see that the the two sides mistrust each other when Dinobot joins the Maximals, but that they are also capable of living and working together as equals, although Dinobot's passion is still to fight and rule.

So what would we get out of this in SG context? Evil Primal and crew going to Earth to kill Megatron to end their oppression at the hands of the 'Heroic' Predacons? How does that make them any different than the regualr universe Predacons? Who can really call themselves the 'Good Guys' in either conflict? See, THIS is the sort of thing Evil Alternate Universes should be used to make us think about, rather than "Look! It's a completely redone origin story with the Autobots painted as unquestionably evil and the plot is still generic Transformers!"

Well if they were to base it off of the SG universe already going with the 'Heroic Decepticons' are trying to prevent the 'Evil Autobots' from leaving Cybertron in the first place, maybe they could do something where the 'evil Maximals' go back in time to help the Autobots leave the planet and then try and protect the Ark once it arrives at Earth while the 'heroic Predacons' are there to try and fix the timeline.

[Onslaught Six]

How exactly are the Predacons being oppressed though? The Maximals really aren't the cruel oppressive type. So what, they wont let the Predacons get the energon they need to restart the Great Wars? The Predacons appear to just view the fact that the Maximals are in power and that they wont let them fight, conquer and rule as an "oppression". We also see that the the two sides mistrust each other when Dinobot joins the Maximals, but that they are also capable of living and working together as equals, although Dinobot's passion is still to fight and rule.

We're already given a 'lot' of hints that the Maximal rule of the era is very much not a nice one. Information on the Great Wars is suppressed and twisted, so much so that when they meet someone from that era (Starscream) he is able to convince them an entirely different set of events happened ("I killed Galvatron and Unicron!" or something else equally ridiculous). Not just that, but they created the corrupt mistake of Protoform X/Rampage. They might be intending to do good, but their actions speak otherwise.

Well if they were to base it off of the SG universe already going with the 'Heroic Decepticons' are trying to prevent the 'Evil Autobots' from leaving Cybertron in the first place, maybe they could do something where the 'evil Maximals' go back in time to help the Autobots leave the planet and then try and protect the Ark once it arrives at Earth while the 'heroic Predacons' are there to try and fix the timeline.

This is assuming Shattered Glass BW leads off from Shattered Glass G1, which is just...stupid, and forcing things to be where they shouldn't be.

Shattered Glass sucks.

[Dominic]

This is ALSO why I hate hate HATE Megatron's "Evil TRIUMPHS!" line from the end of 'The Agenda'. WHY?!!

I agree. That line was down there with calling Magneto's original team "The Brotherhood of EVIL Mutants", or calling Zemo's team "The Master's of EVIL".

That said, I do not think a "Beast Wars" in the SG context would work precisely because of that moral ambiguity.

The Maximals are not as nice as the Autobots. But, they are not *that* bad. It looks like the factions are political parties, along the lines of the European system. The Predacons are a permanent minority, but are not oppressed. A Joe-Schmoe Predacon who lives quietly would probably be able to get by well enough. The Maximals might bump-off the occassional dissident, but so what? Megatron's Predacons were, as O6 once put it, escapees from a lunatic asylum.

But, in SG, Megatron's guys would still be anarchists, and thus arguably bad guys for destabilizing the thing.

I doubt that anybody actually supressed information about the Great War. I chalked up the confusion about Starscream to be due to ignorance by the characters. Ignorance of history is common enough, even when there is no politcal need to supress information.

Dom

[Onslaught Six]

I doubt that anybody actually supressed information about the Great War. I chalked up the confusion about Starscream to be due to ignorance by the characters. Ignorance of history is common enough, even when there is no politcal need to supress information.

I dunno, I think it's very possible that they were. It's at least mildly implied, I guess.