Advice re 2009-2011 Ongoing comics (should I buy?)

[Shockwave]

I think Dom is referring to a fairly small portion of the fandom. Perhaps that portion was bigger many years ago or perhaps it's a matter of those Transfans being more vocal or more noticed than the rest of us, I'm not sure. Either way, the effect is the same. That portion basically just buys the comic and then runs home gleefully thinking "yAy! I'm ReAdInG Transformers! YAAAY!" and apparently has little thought capacity beyond that. Apparently it's this same sect of the fandom that Costa primarily heard from which caused the rant that he went on. Dom (and apparently Costa) are calling out fans that don't want anything more out of their TF comics that big ass robot fights, not the fact that people reading a book called "Transformers" expect to see Transformers in said comic.

As for Costa overreacting... well if that's all you hear, what else are you supposed to think? Without any other source of information, what other logicaly conclusion would you draw?

It's a bit like the website registrations I have to process here at work. Now, for every one that I do, there's probably like, a hundred people that do it successfully without calling in. But I only deal with the ones that call in. So then it seems like to me that nobody out there can navigate this thing correctly and that it's a jumbled, horrible mess, when in reality I'm only seeing a very small part of the population. Perception is everything when it comes to making this kinds of conclusions.

[Sparky Prime]

As for Costa overreacting... well if that's all you hear, what else are you supposed to think? Without any other source of information, what other logicaly conclusion would you draw?

Do you remember the interview that Costa gave to The Underbase? He was very clearly angry over the criticism on his run and was irrationally lashing out against the fandom for it. The claims he made were anything but logical conclusions, and was either extremely broad generalizations or otherwise completely untrue. Like when he said there is only about 100 fans active across all of the various Transformers message boards. Or how Transformers fans only read Transformers comics and are isolated from the rest of the comic book world. There is just no way that anyone could rationally make claims like that if they'd actually spent any time looking at the TF fan sites. And in that same interview, he admitted he didn't understand the Transformers in concept or as characters. Is it any wonder the fans wouldn't look favorably on his run if he fundamentally didn't understand how to write it? Granted, in every fandom there will be some extremists, but Costa was totally in the wrong as well. You can't generalize something based on only the negative criticism you get.

[Onslaught Six]

Furman's run with the main IDW universe started in October 2005 (with Infiltration) and lasted until April 2009 (with Maximum Dinobots), so his was more like 3.5 years.

I count Furman's run as going until the first issue of AHM was released, because by that point, IDW was clearly pushing AHM as a Big New Start, with MaxDinos left around to tie up loose ends.

Or how Transformers fans only read Transformers comics and are isolated from the rest of the comic book world. There is just no way that anyone could rationally make claims like that if they'd actually spent any time looking at the TF fan sites.

I dunno; read TFW sometime and then just go kill yourself. Because that's what I want to do when I read it. (I also occasionally read Hisstank, which just makes me want to kill the rest of the world.)

[Sparky Prime]

I count Furman's run as going until the first issue of AHM was released, because by that point, IDW was clearly pushing AHM as a Big New Start, with MaxDinos left around to tie up loose ends.

I wouldn't call that an accurate assessment of Furman's run. Even though that overlapped with McCarthy's run and was mainly to wrap up loose ends, it was still a part of Furman's run which is why I still count it as such.

Or how Transformers fans only read Transformers comics and are isolated from the rest of the comic book world. There is just no way that anyone could rationally make claims like that if they'd actually spent any time looking at the TF fan sites.

I dunno; read TFW sometime and then just go kill yourself. Because that's what I want to do when I read it. (I also occasionally read Hisstank, which just makes me want to kill the rest of the world.)

TFW currently has around 66,700 registered members, so as I said before, there are bound to be some extremists in the mix, but still, I'd say you are grossly over-exaggerating that things are that bad on their forums. Although, I have to admit, I generally stick to the non-Transformers sections whenever I go to their message boards... And in that regard, they do have two comic book sections, one just for Transformers and one for any other comics. That doesn't match up with what Costa claims in that interview.

[Dominic]

So then it seems like to me that nobody out there can navigate this thing correctly and that it's a jumbled, horrible mess, when in reality I'm only seeing a very small part of the population. Perception is everything when it comes to making this kinds of conclusions.

It also depends on how many of them are having the same/similar problems. Schools, the public sector and other web-sites with "obligatory" use tend to be piss poor in their design. I spent a fair amount of time walking clients through the site at my last job. And, I had to admit that I only knew how to work the site because I worked there. (I wonder if the people responsible for the site actually used it for a portfolio. And, if so, I wonder how it worked for them.)

Perhaps that portion was bigger many years ago or perhaps it's a matter of those Transfans being more vocal or more noticed than the rest of us, I'm not sure. Either way, the effect is the same. That portion basically just buys the comic and then runs home gleefully thinking "yAy! I'm ReAdInG Transformers! YAAAY!" and apparently has little thought capacity beyond that.

As 86 points out, that portion of the fandom is bigger than you seem to think.

Do you remember the interview that Costa gave to The Underbase?

Fondly.


The "100 fans" comment was hyperbole. It took it Costa calling out the fandom for thinking it is bigger/more significant than it really is. (The insular core of the fan-base acting like it is a huge segment of the market, similar to the guys who completely disregard younger and casual collectors in the toy aisles.)

Or how Transformers fans only read Transformers comics and are isolated from the rest of the comic book world.

I saw a comment on a TF forum yesterday (I think it was AllSpark) that kind of supports Costa's assertion. While discussing "Age of Ultron" and Marvel pushing Angela (and how!), somebody made a comment that they (Marvel) should know pushing a character hard for no reason does not work, and cited Drift as evidence. (Because, clearly, Drift is soooooo relevant outside of "Transformers". And, Drift was the big example of how over-hyping characters was a bad idea because....they could ot think of any other examples, even examples that other comic fans would be more likely to recognize or care about?)

And in that same interview, he admitted he didn't understand the Transformers in concept or as characters. Is it any wonder the fans wouldn't look favorably on his run if he fundamentally didn't understand how to write it?

Yes, and Costa still managed to apply outside ideas to TF, and he showed insight on those ideas. But, "bawww, he does not get the awesomeness of Transformers".

Granted, in every fandom there will be some extremists, but Costa was totally in the wrong as well. You can't generalize something based on only the negative criticism you get.

I will agree that there were somethings that Costa should not have been the one to say. But, that did not make those things any less true or necessary to have been said.

I wouldn't call that an accurate assessment of Furman's run. Even though that overlapped with McCarthy's run and was mainly to wrap up loose ends, it was still a part of Furman's run which is why I still count it as such.

Furman's run was maybe 3 years (mid-'05 to mid-'08), and not wholly contiguous. But, he was pulled early because IDW was not happy with his sales.



-Dauntless Dom...

[Sparky Prime]

As 86 points out, that portion of the fandom is bigger than you seem to think.

I think you're giving that portion of the fandom more credit than it deserves.

The "100 fans" comment was hyperbole. It took it Costa calling out the fandom for thinking it is bigger/more significant than it really is. (The insular core of the fan-base acting like it is a huge segment of the market, similar to the guys who completely disregard younger and casual collectors in the toy aisles.)

You seriously think he was using hyperbole given the context of everything he said in that interview? There's no way. He's literally generalizing Transformers fans as small and ignorant.

I saw a comment on a TF forum yesterday (I think it was AllSpark) that kind of supports Costa's assertion. While discussing "Age of Ultron" and Marvel pushing Angela (and how!), somebody made a comment that they (Marvel) should know pushing a character hard for no reason does not work, and cited Drift as evidence. (Because, clearly, Drift is soooooo relevant outside of "Transformers". And, Drift was the big example of how over-hyping characters was a bad idea because....they could ot think of any other examples, even examples that other comic fans would be more likely to recognize or care about?)

You're seriously bending over backwards to try and defend Costa here Dom. Can you not see how this argument contradicts itself? The example you use of an isolated Transfan, who would be oblivious to any comics outside of Transformers according to Costa, is discussing a Marvel comic book? That alone would go to disprove that claim. And the fact that they cite Drift as their example does not necessarily mean they couldn't think of any other examples at all. Rather given that is a *Transformers* message board, Drift works as example everyone on the board should understand given the *common interest* in the franchise.

Yes, and Costa still managed to apply outside ideas to TF, and he showed insight on those ideas. But, "bawww, he does not get the awesomeness of Transformers".

You do realize that understanding the core concept behind a franchise is not the same thing as getting "the awesomeness" of that franchise, right? And apparently applying outside ideas was all Costa could do if he didn't understand that core concept. That's not a good thing Dom. Ideas are good to have, but worthless in actually telling a good story by themselves. A writer needs to actually understand what it is they're writing about first and foremost.

I will agree that there were somethings that Costa should not have been the one to say. But, that did not make those things any less true or necessary to have been said

Couldn't disagree more. Costa was hurt and lashing out and as a result, lot of what he said simply wasn't true or necessary at all.

Furman's run was maybe 3 years (mid-'05 to mid-'08), and not wholly contiguous. But, he was pulled early because IDW was not happy with his sales.

Early? Even saying he was on it for 3 years, Furman still had the longest run of all the IDW writers so far.

[Onslaught Six]

Early? Even saying he was on it for 3 years, Furman still had the longest run of all the IDW writers so far.

By the admission of everyone involved, though, Furman's original storylines were cut short. "Revelation" was cut down from being the next miniseries (ala Infiltration etc.) to being shoehorned into Spotlight issues, and MaxDinos screams of "ideas that were supposed to be somewhere else." IDW was unhappy with Furman's sales, and McCarthy stepped up to the main book. Furman being thrown onto a book with Grimlock on the cover of every issue is obviously a move to fill out a remaining contract in a way that's almost guaranteed sales.

[BWprowl]

I don't have a whole lot to add to what this argument's become, given that while I really liked Costa's run, I recognize that *I* was the one who liked it, and for personal, idiosyncratic reasons that other people dislike it for (I actually really LIKED that full page of close-ups on weights in that one issue because I got what Costa was going for there). I do want to point out though, that I find it funny that Dom often uses how much Transfans like something as an inverse metric for how much he appreciates it (EG: his distaste for MTMTE because it had the audacity to TRY to entertain the people who were reading it), but also spends an inordinate amount of time trying to convince a bunch of Transfans that they should go in and like this series he also likes. It's like, would he immediately start hating Costa's Ongoing if TFW and Tumblr were filled up with people talking about how cool the fight between the Autobots and Menasor was, or applauding the use of fan-favorite teams like the Combaticons and Predacons in their cartoon designs, or talking about how they ship Bumblebee and Thundercracker?

I guess I'm just curious why you want SO BADLY for other people to like these comics, Dom. I honestly wouldn't figure you so insecure over your appreciation for a particular comic book that you need SOME other people to admit that it doesn't suck so you can erase any lingering doubts that it doesn't suck. I loved it, and other people who didn't, it obviously wasn't for them. Who cares?

Oh, I also wanna comment on this:

You do realize that understanding the core concept behind a franchise is not the same thing as getting "the awesomeness" of that franchise, right? And apparently applying outside ideas was all Costa could do if he didn't understand that core concept. That's not a good thing Dom. Ideas are good to have, but worthless in actually telling a good story by themselves. A writer needs to actually understand what it is they're writing about first and foremost.

I absolutely disagree that good ideas are worthless in telling a good story. Any writer can stick some familiar franchise characters down on a page and use references from older comics to give them 'accurate' and 'in-character' dialogue while telling a story that 'fits' with those because he's more or less basing it on the same formula that franchise has always followed. And it may even be entertaining in a vapid, watch-your-favorite-guys-in-action sort of way (Kamen Rider and Super Sentai movies are almost entirely based around this principle, and I find them entertaining as hell for that). But a story that actually illustrates an idea, that uses that portrayal of characters and settings we may be familiar with to make us *consider* something, to really make us think about something we may not have thought about before, THAT is a truly great story. Furthermore, stuff like that can easily stand on its own *without* having to rely on a built-in fanbase buying something just because a particular brand-name is on the cover. Example: Superior Spider-Man. I was way over Spider-Man, as a 'character'. Didn't care about him, so just having Spider-Man in comics being Spider-Man, doing whatever a spider can wasn't going to get me to buy or read any of his stories. But they put forth an idea, a truly interesting (if at first morbidly) concept: What would happen if a villain got to take the place of a hero? Would he be superior at the job? Do traditional 'heroes' have shortcomings at that job due to how we envision them and how they characterize themselves? That's engaging stuff, and that gets me to pick up the book and read it, not because I want to be amazed by the Amazing Spider-Man, but because that idea's something I'd never really thought about before, because it's an interesting idea, and I want to see what else the author has to say about it.

[Sparky Prime]

By the admission of everyone involved, though, Furman's original storylines were cut short.

Indeed, but having several years under his belt as the head writer at that point, I wouldn't call that being "pulled early".

I absolutely disagree that good ideas are worthless in telling a good story.

I didn't say that good ideas are worthless in telling a good story though, now did I? Let's review:

Ideas are good to have, but worthless in actually telling a good story by themselves.

See that, right there? Where I said "by themselves"? As in, it takes more than just an idea to make a story good?

Any writer can stick some familiar franchise characters down on a page and use references from older comics to give them 'accurate' and 'in-character' dialogue while telling a story that 'fits' with those because he's more or less basing it on the same formula that franchise has always followed.

That is no way to tell a story. Simply referencing older stories is not going to make the characters "accurate" or give them "in-character" dialogue or make it "fit" at all. You have to actually understand such a reference to be able to use it accurately in the first place, otherwise you risk making an even bigger mess out of the story. And to make the characters themselves "accurate" is a constant thing you have to do consistently throughout a story. Making a reference to a previous story isn't going to do that for you.

But a story that actually illustrates an idea, that uses that portrayal of characters and settings we may be familiar with to make us *consider* something, to really make us think about something we may not have thought about before, THAT is a truly great story. Furthermore, stuff like that can easily stand on its own *without* having to rely on a built-in fanbase buying something just because a particular brand-name is on the cover.

As you said yourself here, you get that idea across using the *characters and settings*. *All* of those elements are a *part* of making a truly great story, not just an idea by itself. And of course you don't need a built-in fanbase to do that, but you do need to draw your audience into the story. Otherwise, if they don't care for the story you're telling, then why would they care for whatever idea you're trying to get across? You can't illustrate any ideas if you can't draw in an audience. If you're not going to develop or understand the story elements to convey that idea, that's going to alienate a lot of the people reading it, especially if they are a part of a fan-base for a particular storyline. You might as well just get a soapbox if you're only going to care about what ever idea you have rather than anything else that is a part of a story.

I think that's why Superior Spider-Man didn't fall flat on it's face. I recall seeing somewhere Dan Slott said Doctor Octopus is actually one of his favorite characters, so he already understood Doc Ock's character and background. While Slott certainly alienated many fans of Peter Parker with the direction he's taken the story, he's clearly put a great deal of time and care into putting Doc Ock into his new role as well. Slott didn't only focus on the idea of putting a villain in the heroes shoes, forcing the story to go where he wanted it to with only that idea in mind, he actually developed the characters and story along with it in a way that surprisingly fits when you think about it and know what has already been established about the character. Course, plenty of people would still prefer to see Peter Parker as Spider-Man...

[Shockwave]

As for Costa overreacting... well if that's all you hear, what else are you supposed to think? Without any other source of information, what other logicaly conclusion would you draw?

Do you remember the interview that Costa gave to The Underbase? He was very clearly angry over the criticism on his run and was irrationally lashing out against the fandom for it. The claims he made were anything but logical conclusions, and was either extremely broad generalizations or otherwise completely untrue. Like when he said there is only about 100 fans active across all of the various Transformers message boards. Or how Transformers fans only read Transformers comics and are isolated from the rest of the comic book world. There is just no way that anyone could rationally make claims like that if they'd actually spent any time looking at the TF fan sites. And in that same interview, he admitted he didn't understand the Transformers in concept or as characters. Is it any wonder the fans wouldn't look favorably on his run if he fundamentally didn't understand how to write it? Granted, in every fandom there will be some extremists, but Costa was totally in the wrong as well. You can't generalize something based on only the negative criticism you get.

Nope because I'd never read it, I was just going off of Dom's description.

Having clicked the link though and read some of the comments.... damn. You sure as hell don't win any popularity contests that way. I'm gonna have to watch the whole podcast later.