TF Procreation

[Onslaught Six]

I'm going to take a leap and say that, with the exception of a few buzzwords, the movie TFs don't work the same way regular TFs do. It's clear from earlier drafts and such that the AllSpark is not really meant to evoke that--it does not create life or give sparks. It's really intended to be a giant Energon Cube (which is what it was called in the first place) and somehow can create Energon.

I think the direction they were going was that the crazed robots from the first film (Dispensor, Xbot, Phone Guy) had no "souls" because they were simply regular objects infused with a great amount of Energon. The "Allspark shard"/Energon Cube shard simply has enough Energon-dispensing powers left in it to revive Megatron and Jetfire, who--since they were actually built and designed as TFs--simply get revived rather than anything else. Kind of like how your car will sit dormant forever if it doesn't have any gas, but as soon as you throw some in it'll start right up. (Assuming the battery hasn't gone dead or anything else.) This is the same reason why it's stated in ROTF that the hatchlings will die without any Energon.

Have we ever actually had a character officially commit suicide before? We've had characters sacrifice themselves for others in the face of certain death or refuse healing to save others (Dinobot, Sunstreaker in AHM, Optimus Prime numerous times) or ignore certain deathly qualities (Ironfist in Last Stand of the Wreckers) but have we ever had a character actually pull the trigger, per se?

Hey, all this talk just gave me a thought: energy can't be destroyed, only transmuted, so if the Transformers have been fighting a war for millions of years run on Energon, which they consume both to keep their bodies fueled AND to power their weapons... where the hell has all that energy gone? Is it super hot on Cybertron, it's just radiating waste-heat from every bot's action? Or are they farting it out a la ROTF Jetfire and it's being contained in a gas atmosphere around the planet? Or are all those lasers just getting blasted into space after they hit their target and glance off?

I have actually said in the past that, by watching the shows themselves, it becomes blatantly obvious that the TFs are advanced enough that they don't need to abide by our understanding of the laws of physics. (In other words, it is entirely possible they have technology that can literally destroy energy.)

Would that not mean that a majority of TFs would have to die for Primus to return to "life"? Would that mean Unicron killing all the bots is actually fueling his enemy, or is Unicron HOARDING all those Sparks so Primus cannot awaken? I love the philosophy-chain that has arisen in this thread!

Unicron never actually absorbs the sparks of any Transformers, does he? I mean, the concept wasn't really around in TFTM, but if Unicron was eating and digesting various TFs he ate from the moons (A guy who looks like Beachcomber is dropped into the vat) it's possible that their sparks still returned to Primus after being extinguished.

Also, the whole point between the difference of Unicron and Primus is that Primus doesn't need to be "alive" again. His essence lives on in every Transformer, whose explicit purpose is "be around to stop Unicron, because eventually he's going to come after us." As a being of Generic Good, Primus can create life, and as a being of Generic Bad, Unicron can only corrupt it. (Much like God can create life and Satan can only corrupt.) Primus created life with the rock ball he was in; Unicron corrupted the ball until it could transform into his robot mode.

[BWprowl]

Have we ever actually had a character officially commit suicide before? We've had characters sacrifice themselves for others in the face of certain death or refuse healing to save others (Dinobot, Sunstreaker in AHM, Optimus Prime numerous times) or ignore certain deathly qualities (Ironfist in Last Stand of the Wreckers) but have we ever had a character actually pull the trigger, per se?

Skyfall drinks a glass of (what's basically) acid in that LSotW text story from the trade, as he'd rather die than face an angry mob that was outside. And speaking of Dinobot, he got within inches of committing Seppuku at the beginning of Code of Hero. Antagony from Omega Point also had the equivalent of a spy's suicide pill installed in her brain that went off and left her brain-dead when she was being mind-probed by Megatron.

Also, the whole point between the difference of Unicron and Primus is that Primus doesn't need to be "alive" again. His essence lives on in every Transformer, whose explicit purpose is "be around to stop Unicron, because eventually he's going to come after us." As a being of Generic Good, Primus can create life, and as a being of Generic Bad, Unicron can only corrupt it. (Much like God can create life and Satan can only corrupt.) Primus created life with the rock ball he was in; Unicron corrupted the ball until it could transform into his robot mode.

Unicron was also only able to create soldiers and such from other guys, ie: Galvatron and the boys. Which makes you wonder, if we're still to assume that Tarantulas was 'Unicron's Spawn', was he made out of anyone in particular?

Interesting: In Beast Machines, Megatron was shown to be able to absorb sparks. So...what happened to them then? I mean, obviously they either returned to Primus after he died or made it back to their bodies in time to be reborn with Cybertron, but what went on with them while they were absorbed?

[Sparky Prime]

It's clear from earlier drafts and such that the AllSpark is not really meant to evoke that--it does not create life or give sparks. It's really intended to be a giant Energon Cube (which is what it was called in the first place) and somehow can create Energon.

It's clear in the actual movies that Allspark is more than a source of Energon though. The first movie does in fact say it "holds the power to create worlds and fill them with life" and RotF makes it clear that it contains all Cybertronian knowledge. It's basically an Energon Cube, Vector Sigma and the Allspark/Primus all mixed into one.

The "Allspark shard"/Energon Cube shard simply has enough Energon-dispensing powers left in it to revive Megatron and Jetfire, who--since they were actually built and designed as TFs--simply get revived rather than anything else. Kind of like how your car will sit dormant forever if it doesn't have any gas, but as soon as you throw some in it'll start right up. (Assuming the battery hasn't gone dead or anything else.) This is the same reason why it's stated in ROTF that the hatchlings will die without any Energon.

You seem to be forgetting the Allspark was used to overload and destroy Megatron's Spark in the first movie. He was dead dead, not just sitting dormant, waiting for someone to revive him with more fuel. He needed the Allspark to restore his Spark itself.

Have we ever actually had a character officially commit suicide before?

There is a Transformer that transforms himself to death as a political protest in MTMTE #1 that came out today.

[Gomess]

a Transformer that transforms himself to death as a political protest

nothing will ever be funny again

[Onslaught Six]

It's clear from earlier drafts and such that the AllSpark is not really meant to evoke that--it does not create life or give sparks. It's really intended to be a giant Energon Cube (which is what it was called in the first place) and somehow can create Energon.

It's clear in the actual movies that Allspark is more than a source of Energon though. The first movie does in fact say it "holds the power to create worlds and fill them with life" and RotF makes it clear that it contains all Cybertronian knowledge. It's basically an Energon Cube, Vector Sigma and the Allspark/Primus all mixed into one.

I actually attended a panel about TF at MAGFest (believe it or not!) which I mostly disagreed with (Guy running it was kind of a "Beast Machines and RID suck dick and no one ever liked them," kind of guy. Obviously we didn't get along.) but he did bring up a good point--Orci and Kurtzman have this weird movie writing style where they'll throw all kinds of shit at the wall in early drafts to see what'll work and what doesn't. The problem is that they'll rewrite other parts of the script to fix things that aren't working...and then never update the rest of the script to go along with it. I fully believe that the AllSpark's inconsistent behaviour and descriptions are part of this.

The "Allspark shard"/Energon Cube shard simply has enough Energon-dispensing powers left in it to revive Megatron and Jetfire, who--since they were actually built and designed as TFs--simply get revived rather than anything else. Kind of like how your car will sit dormant forever if it doesn't have any gas, but as soon as you throw some in it'll start right up. (Assuming the battery hasn't gone dead or anything else.) This is the same reason why it's stated in ROTF that the hatchlings will die without any Energon.

You seem to be forgetting the Allspark was used to overload and destroy Megatron's Spark in the first movie. He was dead dead, not just sitting dormant, waiting for someone to revive him with more fuel. He needed the Allspark to restore his Spark itself.

Early materials make it clear that the reason the AllSpark kills Megatron is that Megs absorbs (nearly) all the Energon within it. Megatron's problem is he has 'too much' energy and he dies as a result of it. Power overload.

Have we ever actually had a character officially commit suicide before?

There is a Transformer that transforms himself to death as a political protest in MTMTE #1 that came out today.

I don't care what G says, that's awesome.

[Mako Crab]

How do you account for size differences? Fortress Maximus can't mate with Arcee, he's the size of a city and she's a motorcycle (sometimes).

Given the rarity of city-bots like Fort Max, Trypticon, Metroplex, Metrotitan, Scorponok, Grand Maximus, and Brave Maximus (I think that's all of them!), I think it's likely that these were Transformers that were built as weapons specifically and brought to life via other known means (Vector Sigma, etc.). And, if I recall, many of the City Bots are transtector bodies controlled by a normal sized TF that becomes the head. Exceptions include Metroplex and Trypticon

. . . And did you know that the TF Wiki has absolutely no mention of Trypticon's appearance in the War For Cybertron game?! Bullshit!!

The fact is, TFs themselves all vary too much in size and general structure to make sexual reproduction reliably possible. Especially when you break it down into such terms.

Adapter cables!

I think stupid bullshit like this is why Budiansky created the Creation Matrix, the cartoon writers created Vector Sigma, and Orci/Kurtzman created the AllSpark.

I don't know. The guy certainly got into more detail than anyone needed, but he had solid reasoning on why he came to his conclusions. Sadly, most of his reasoning and evidence was given only in the replies, and I doubt many people want to read through 7 pages of back-and-forth to get the whole story. I did find this nice quote on the 3rd page of replies that should make you smile:

There is no "bump and grind" involved at all.

[Dominic]

Fortress Maximus can't mate with Arcee, he's the size of a city and she's a motorcycle (sometimes).

The better part of 20 years ago, a friend of mine told me that he saw a fan-film along these lines. He was more enthusiastic than I am comfortable recalling at the moment.

Not sure if he mentioned it in the original artists' comments section, but he does clarify in the replies that TFs have CNA.

Cyber Nucleic Acid? Oi......

This is why I hate fanfic.

the Harry Potter fandom

Yeah, when book 7 came out, a casual glane at the fandom was all it took to send me packing at the end.

I don't subscribe to that philosophy so it's easier for me to view the concept as being one created by the character rather than the TF God, plus that also makes it easier to explain why there are so many unique characters in the TF universe rather than all copy-pasted clones.

This worked until Primus and Unicron started showing up every other week. Now, it is harder to say that it is just what the characters believe.

Aging slowly and refusing upgrades is the key though, they COULD choose to remain compatible physically, I suppose that would be a TF version of suicide and what that would mean to the view of the finite commodity of Sparks.

Even putting aside fru-fru sophist questions about "what is suicide?", I think a better analogy here is somebody not taking care of themselves or being wreckless.

I have had my idiot moments. (Remember 2003-6? Oh, the memories...and the blackouts and the nearly dying...)

I know plenty of people who are happily alive, but they smoke and/or drink.

Professional wrestlers are often known for enjoying life. But, they do not always take the best care of themselves.

A robot refusing useful/necessary upgrades kind of goes in this category.

There have been a few TFs that have kiled themselves. Hotspot, Dirge and Nightbeat all killed themselves in G2. (They intentionally ended their own lives, rather than taking dangerous actions that they would have been happy to survive.)

Just for a basis of comparison, I think it'd be more like someone who could live another 3 years refusing an organ transplant that would let them live another 6 instead.

Or this, even if the obvious feedback loop is more dire.

There is a Transformer that transforms himself to death as a political protest in MTMTE #1 that came out today.

Orci & Kurtzman were asked specifically about that, I think about Dispensor, at Botcon 2009 and their answer was specifically because those beings didn't have souls, not because the species was aggressive.

I bow to creator intent. But, in my defense, (besides the fact that I missed the interview), there were several examples from the toy line (and the IDW comics) of characters being created by the AllSpark having souls and personalities. So, yeah, make of it what you will.

Ah, those toys are still nice UT/CHUG style recolours which really do not fit with the movie anyway.

If it were up to focus groups and marketing of the '80s, there wouldn't have been any girlbots, the proof is that until BW there were no toys of girlbots.

Did Arcee ever really contribute anything though? And, I thinks she was added to the movie to draw in girls. ("GI Joe" had more than one female character almost from day one.)

Jetfire's body was intact, but we have no idea what condition his Spark was in at the time. And given it took a fragment of the Allspark to revive him, that would suggest he was more than simply dormant.

Fair point by Sparky here. It might have been a question of the information stored in Jetfire's brain being intact, but there being no motive power (soul/spark), similar to a thumbdrive that is connected to a cold system.

The "copy/pasted clones" that JT mentions would be a quick and easy way to bolster one's ranks with pre-trained soldiers who would initially have somewhat predictable temperments. Presumably, part of the process would involve creating motive power for the new TF.


Dom
-what about explicit army builders?

[Ursus mellifera]

Dom
-there are actually lizards that can self-clone in real life....

Aphids also do this.

[Onslaught Six]

How do you account for size differences? Fortress Maximus can't mate with Arcee, he's the size of a city and she's a motorcycle (sometimes).

Given the rarity of city-bots like Fort Max, Trypticon, Metroplex, Metrotitan, Scorponok, Grand Maximus, and Brave Maximus (I think that's all of them!), I think it's likely that these were Transformers that were built as weapons specifically and brought to life via other known means (Vector Sigma, etc.). And, if I recall, many of the City Bots are transtector bodies controlled by a normal sized TF that becomes the head. Exceptions include Metroplex and Trypticon

. . . And did you know that the TF Wiki has absolutely no mention of Trypticon's appearance in the War For Cybertron game?! Bullshit!!

Yes they do?

The fact is, TFs themselves all vary too much in size and general structure to make sexual reproduction reliably possible. Especially when you break it down into such terms.

Adapter cables!

Did 'you' write that post? I think it's clear most of us here are vehemently against the idea of Transformers doing the horizontal shuffle.

Did Arcee ever really contribute anything though? And, I thinks she was added to the movie to draw in girls. ("GI Joe" had more than one female character almost from day one.)

Over at Jim Shooter's blog, Shooter himself basically said that it was at Marvel and Larry Hama's urging that females and even villains were added to the GI Joe toyline in 1982--while it was being developed, Hasbro was rather adamant that the toyline only contain heroes, which in 1982 would've been a bunch of green army dudes who all looked the same. Just like the 12" Joe line.

Shooter and Hama basically said, "Without villains and a couple chicks, this toyline will tank." And, lo and behold, Scarlett was available in the first wave of GI Joe characters in 1982, while Baroness was in the comic from the first issue, and got a figure as of 1984.

[Ursus mellifera]

There is a Transformer that transforms himself to death as a political protest in MTMTE #1 that came out today.

Seriously?

How the &^%$ is that even possible?