TF Views

HOLY CRAP Prowl! We've all been posting together for what, roughly a decade and none of us caught that till now? That's hilarious!

Anderson, I appreciate the comments although I will confess that I did have one moment while reading this issue, it was the scene where Chromedome is looking at what appears to be a crystal rose and puts it in the garbage shute that I thought to myself "Ok, I get what Anderson is saying".

Yeah the can is open, but I like to think that at least here at tfviews we're mature enough that we can start discussing the deeper themes. I think I might check the MTMTE thread over on TFW just to see what their take on it is but that would be mostly out of morbid curiosity. Plus, in hindsight, the thing I like about this is that Roberts had a definite purpose and a point that he was trying to make that required two characters to have this kind of relationship. It's a part of analyzing death and loss and the story and themes really wouldn't have worked or been as effective without it. And at least he handled it tastefully without it resorting to something infantile and tawdry.

For now though, I just want to say that I amusingly only just now noticed that the word 'fandom' is a portmanteu of 'Fan' and 'Dom'. Heheh.

Wow. I never realized that either, even when I was trying to make "Dom" in to an internet thing about 7 or so years back.


Okay, so why am I back in this thread?

Well, I have to admit that Shockwave is probably on to something. Roberts is writing about life/death/loss/yaddayaddayadda. And, when I consider MTMTE along those lines (and Shockwave's reading is probably accurate), the apparent aimlessness of the book makes a certain amount of sense. When compared with mortality, even a life well spent can seem to be a waste.

Most of the characters on the Lost Light are either looking for or running away from something. With the end of the war, the had the chance to seek something or were forced to run from whatever their demons were.

I am not sure how many of you know/remember this, but in 2004 I almost died. I got stupid about monitoring my diabetes in '02, and it all caught up to me on November 26th 2004. Ya know that old stereotype of the guy who was an arse until he had a heart attack at 40 or so? Yeah, that was me. I am man enough to admit that. When you are flat on your back in a hospital bed, you have time to think about things, particularly the way you have lived.

I have come back to that idea over the years, particularly the last few. I have tried to live a better life because of 2004. That was a low point in my life for a few reasons, and the thought of dying at that point.... Well, I was glad to survive only because it meant I had a chance to leave something better behind (rather than because I wanted my life to continue as it was).

So, yeah, maybe I did miss something in "More than Meets the Eye".



My strong reaction to "gay space robots" stemmed from the fact that the idea looked so much like something I have seen in so many bad fanfics and fan-centric discussions over the years. I saw "gay space robots" and thought "ah, hell, the inmates have really taken the damned asylum". It was something of a trigger for me. (I guess there is some irony in the fact that I had an emotional over-reaction to a comic when I am normally very analytical about comics.)


Dom
-might look in to picking up the compilations.

I also really gotta give credit to IDW for not hyping the whole "gay space robots" or "X character is now gay" for sales purposes like DC did with... crap, what was his name... um... Arnold Scott? Adam Scott? It was Scott right? Damn. Anyway I think you all know what I'm referring to. IDW theoretically could have done that here but didn't. The whole thing was really handled as delicately and tastefully as possible and I gotta give props all around for them being able to do that. Especially since it's so relevant to the deeper themes of the book. I'm personally more interested to see the follow up on Magnus and Tailgate. How will Tailgate deal with knowing when he's going to die? Will he try to have Ratchet buy him more time or just try to cross off as much of the bucket list as possible? And given that the X over Magnus' picture is gone we can assume that he's still alive for the moment but probably dealing with the same issue. How does someone deal with knowing their expiration date? Do you try to cheat death? Vie for more time? Reflect on the life you've lived and just wrap things up or lash out with anger over your fate? There's so many ways this can go and I'm very interested to see where Roberts takes us with this.

Shockwave
-I knew there was more than meets the... ok, I won't say it. Even if it is technically true.

Yeah, it was Alan Scott, Some alternate dimension Green Lantern dude, that nobody had really thought about for years. They're doing the same thing now with Batgirl's roommate being the *gasp* first ever trans-gendered character in comics. Or at least the first in mainstream comics (I don't know- that's just what the article said). I think it's lame, when they hype up a character's sexuality as their key defining characteristic. It comes off as yet more pathetic attempts to shock the readers into picking it up. Killing people doesn't shock people anymore, so maybe their sexuality will? I don't know.

Wasn't aware of your brush with death, Dom. Glad to see that 9 years later you're still among the living. And I hope it's clear, that I wasn't knocking you earlier. You just strike me as the type that prefers an intellectually engaging story that makes you think over one that simply gets the emotions pumping. Same reason that most every movie that wins the Oscar for best picture isn't horror, comedy, action, sci-fi, fantasy, romance, etc. Typically those kinds of movies rely on engaging the audience's emotions (and overlooking plot holes and nonsense in the process) instead of making them think about any deep issues.

Mako Crab wrote:Yeah, it was Alan Scott, Some alternate dimension Green Lantern dude, that nobody had really thought about for years.

Oh, man, don't let Anderson hear you say that, or we'll derail the thread for ten fucking pages!

Spoiler

Alan Scott was the first Green Lantern, before Hal Jordan, and has on-and-off been part of the JSA. He wasn't an "alternate dimension" guy nor was he someone that "nobody had really thought about for years." But, he wasn't an A-list character.

They're doing the same thing now with Batgirl's roommate being the *gasp* first ever trans-gendered character in comics. Or at least the first in mainstream comics (I don't know- that's just what the article said). I think it's lame, when they hype up a character's sexuality as their key defining characteristic. It comes off as yet more pathetic attempts to shock the readers into picking it up. Killing people doesn't shock people anymore, so maybe their sexuality will? I don't know.

The worst part is, it's nowhere near the first. Sandman was already pushing that in its fifth volume. (The main female protagonist of the fifth volume is staying with a trans woman who goes by Wanda.) And Sandman isn't exactly a little-known comic--around the time those issues were published, Sandman was outselling most of DC's catalogue.

Dom wrote:My strong reaction to "gay space robots" stemmed from the fact that the idea looked so much like something I have seen in so many bad fanfics and fan-centric discussions over the years. I saw "gay space robots" and thought "ah, hell, the inmates have really taken the damned asylum". It was something of a trigger for me. (I guess there is some irony in the fact that I had an emotional over-reaction to a comic when I am normally very analytical about comics.)

I told you you were overreacting--and in nine cases out of ten, I'd be right along with you, honestly, because the concept reeks of the weird shit Dreamwave would pull--remember Sunstreaker being outed as gay, or Jetfire being a "confirmed atheist?" In ways that did absolutely nothing with the idea, and were clearly just DW trying to be edgy and mature for the sake of being edgy and mature? Whereas this whole situation with Roberts certainly doesn't feel like that at all--it feels like he had some stuff to say.

Anderson wrote:Yet another reason I'd prefer that the topic of "Transformers in love" had never been introduced. It was always going to generate discussion, to the detriment of the other things that are going on. But it can't just be ignored, and so it sucks all the air out of the room. The can of worms has been opened, and it can't be closed.

The important thing is that everyone acknowledges the elephant in the room in a mature and rational--and normal--way. Tip your hat, say, "Pip pip, cheerio," and move on with your lives. This is a thing that happened now, I guess, the same way Galvatron not being Megatron was a thing that happened, or Cyclonus being an ancient TF from before factions (and only having one horn for some reason) is a thing that happened, or there being a new, even-more-contradictory Primus origin that might not even be what happened.

Onslaught Six wrote:

Mako Crab wrote:Yeah, it was Alan Scott, Some alternate dimension Green Lantern dude, that nobody had really thought about for years.

Oh, man, don't let Anderson hear you say that, or we'll derail the thread for ten fucking pages!

Spoiler

Alan Scott was the first Green Lantern, before Hal Jordan, and has on-and-off been part of the JSA. He wasn't an "alternate dimension" guy nor was he someone that "nobody had really thought about for years." But, he wasn't an A-list character.

Haha!! Sorry, Anderson! I was just repeating what I had heard. I don't actually know anything about GL!

Mako Crab wrote:

Onslaught Six wrote:

Mako Crab wrote:Yeah, it was Alan Scott, Some alternate dimension Green Lantern dude, that nobody had really thought about for years.

Oh, man, don't let Anderson hear you say that, or we'll derail the thread for ten fucking pages!

Spoiler

Alan Scott was the first Green Lantern, before Hal Jordan, and has on-and-off been part of the JSA. He wasn't an "alternate dimension" guy nor was he someone that "nobody had really thought about for years." But, he wasn't an A-list character.

Haha!! Sorry, Anderson! I was just repeating what I had heard. I don't actually know anything about GL!

HEY, NO DISRESPECTING ALAN SCOTT.... ahem, sorry there. Must control fanboy rage!!!

He's definitely a second-stringer, and hasn't had his own title since the 40s. Ever since then he's been around just because he was associated with the JSA, so he would turn up when that group did, and whenever they had an ongoing title. So yeah, he's definitely much less well known than Hal Jordan and John Stewart.

Onslaught Six wrote:I told you you were overreacting--and in nine cases out of ten, I'd be right along with you, honestly, because the concept reeks of the weird shit Dreamwave would pull--remember Sunstreaker being outed as gay, or Jetfire being a "confirmed atheist?" In ways that did absolutely nothing with the idea, and were clearly just DW trying to be edgy and mature for the sake of being edgy and mature? Whereas this whole situation with Roberts certainly doesn't feel like that at all--it feels like he had some stuff to say.

As much as I dislike the whole Chromedome/Rewind in love plotline, I will admit it's been fairly restrained and has contributed to the plot, and to Chromedome's character.

Anderson wrote:Yet another reason I'd prefer that the topic of "Transformers in love" had never been introduced. It was always going to generate discussion, to the detriment of the other things that are going on. But it can't just be ignored, and so it sucks all the air out of the room. The can of worms has been opened, and it can't be closed.

The important thing is that everyone acknowledges the elephant in the room in a mature and rational--and normal--way. Tip your hat, say, "Pip pip, cheerio," and move on with your lives. This is a thing that happened now, I guess, the same way Galvatron not being Megatron was a thing that happened, or Cyclonus being an ancient TF from before factions (and only having one horn for some reason) is a thing that happened, or there being a new, even-more-contradictory Primus origin that might not even be what happened.

I've been checking out the other boards, and we're definitely in the minority in not going crazy over this. There is lots of mockery on other boards of those who don't like the idea, like me. So much for the free exchange of opinions in those places. Though some are worse than others, obviously.

andersonh1 wrote: I've been checking out the other boards, and we're definitely in the minority in not going crazy over this. There is lots of mockery on other boards of those who don't like the idea, like me. So much for the free exchange of opinions in those places. Though some are worse than others, obviously.

So much for the fandom not being emotionally stunted.

Interesting stuff about Alan Scott, btw. I think his obscurity was focused upon (maybe inflated?) because DC had been hyping up how one of their major, MAJOR characters was going to be coming out. Then it turns out to be this guy, that, while being a GL, hasn't really been in the periphery of many people's minds for a long time. And he didn't really have a "coming out" moment. He was presented as having already been out, and no one made much of a deal of it. At least- based on the preview pages I read.

I told you you were overreacting--and in nine cases out of ten, I'd be right along with you, honestly, because the concept reeks of the weird shit Dreamwave would pull--remember Sunstreaker being outed as gay, or Jetfire being a "confirmed atheist?"

Gay Sunstreaker was funny....right up until somebody thought about it for about three seconds. The big reveal came in an interview with McDonough and Patyck. They said that Sunstreaker's entry in the sourcebook was written to assume he was gay. The entry itself was written from Ratchet's point of view, as excerpts from a report. Ratchet is afraid of Sunstreaker because Sunstreaker was always sizing up the other Autobots.

Ya see, it is funny because now Ratchet is a homophobe and/or Sunstreaker is totally going to rape his comrades in their Autobutts.


Atheist Jetfire was okay. It came up in the comics, and was relevant to the plot.

Interesting stuff about Alan Scott, btw. I think his obscurity was focused upon (maybe inflated?) because DC had been hyping up how one of their major, MAJOR characters was going to be coming out. Then it turns out to be this guy, that, while being a GL, hasn't really been in the periphery of many people's minds for a long time. And he didn't really have a "coming out" moment. He was presented as having already been out, and no one made much of a deal of it. At least- based on the preview pages I read.

Calling Alan Scott a second stringer is a bit of an over-sell. He is more like a third tier character. (He is one of how many Green Lanterns? The last time he headlined a book was 20 years ago, and that was a quarterly anthology.)

DC effectively created a new character with gay Alan Scott. The new Alan Scott has little in common with the old Alan Scott beyond the name and a vague power-set. And, even then, DC did not want to risk a major character for their big statement about being modern. (I like "Earth 2" It is one of my favourite books. But, I am not going to pretend that gay Green Lantern is anything other than a hype gimmick.)

also really gotta give credit to IDW for not hyping the whole "gay space robots" or "X character is now gay" for sales purposes like DC did with... crap, what was his name... um... Arnold Scott? Adam Scott? It was Scott right? Damn. Anyway I think you all know what I'm referring to. IDW theoretically could have done that here but didn't. The whole thing was really handled as delicately and tastefully as possible and I gotta give props all around for them being able to do that.

If nothing else, we do not want Cambridge types reading "Transformers". They are some of the most intellectually bankrupt people out there, and the fandom does not need them. I am also glad they are staying away from "Earth 2".

"Isn't it wonderful to see diversity in comics?"

"Uh, I am reading this because it is good."

"I know. Diversity is wonderful! Have you read 'Persepolis'?"

"Uh, that thing over there that looks like it was drawn with crayons and is all about how bad it is to be a woman in post-Mullah Iran?"

"Yes. It is wondeful!"

"It is a crudely illustrated 'I' statement that does not seem to have anything meaningful to say!"

"But, it is a diverse perspective!"

"It looks like it was drawn at a kitchen table."

"Isn't that wonderful? It shows that you do not have to be 'talented' or 'professional' to make something and say something."

"Fuck you."


Dom
-has met people like that.

Sunstreaker was supposed to be gay?

And, back on topic, Dom I'm also glad you're still with us. This issue also has me remember the quote from Wrath of Kahn: "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life." And in hindsight, I can't help thinking that maybe that's the real over reaching arc of the story. We first see how they deal with life without war and now how they deal with death. Or in some cases, don't deal with it.

And Dom, if it weren't for you I don't think I'd be seeing this perspective right now. I really do think that talking to you about how you analyze fiction has enabled me to not only see the entertaining robot story in front of me but to also appreciate the deeper ideas and themes that Roberts is conveying here. And I gotta tell you it's pretty awesome.