TF Views

BWprowl wrote:

Onslaught Six wrote:Even I know those things, and I'm me! (Seriously, did you just completely not watch Chapelle's Show?)

No. I didn't. That utter disbelief at my lack of knowledge in this crucial area is the exact reaction my co-workers give me over this stuff, thanks. Nice to know that even here, I haven't been keeping up with the right things...

Don't worry about it Prowl, you didn't miss much. It was hilarious at first, but I find that it hasn't really aged well. When I watch it now I just find it annoying. Besides, you were probably enjoying some awesome anime or something. And as long as you do what you enjoy, that's all that matters. Be yourself and no one can take that away from you.

BWprowl wrote:

Onslaught Six wrote:Even I know those things, and I'm me! (Seriously, did you just completely not watch Chapelle's Show?)

No. I didn't. Nice to know that even here, I haven't been keeping up with the right things...

Oh come on, O6 isn't the barometer of cool around here. Everyone knows that's the original gangsters BigMD and KDogg. ...wait

Trekwave's post makes me feel like a group hug. T-T

Man, I miss those guys. And Metrotitan!

BWprowl wrote:

Onslaught Six wrote:Even I know those things, and I'm me! (Seriously, did you just completely not watch Chapelle's Show?)

No. I didn't. That utter disbelief at my lack of knowledge in this crucial area is the exact reaction my co-workers give me over this stuff, thanks. Nice to know that even here, I haven't been keeping up with the right things...

Don't feel bad, Prowl. Everybody misses something. For example, I missed graduating college!

I didn't say no one was loyal to Magmatron, as he is clearly is shown to have some followers in the comic. But part of his plan is to overthrow the Tripredacus Council, the leaders of the Predacon government. What do you want to bet they have a few more loyal followers than Magmatron does?

I'm guessing that even if he gained all the protoforms on Earth as new Predacon recruits, he'd still be woefully outnumbered.

Why do so many people miss this from the comic? It is covered on page 9 of the first issue. Ravage contacts Magmatron after he survey's the planet and transmits "tactical planetary scans". Presumably that data contained the condition and locations of the stasis pods. Having information provided to him by Ravage pretty much takes take of the next few points you bring up save for...

Facts and logic? How dare you!! Okay, so it's been a while since I bothered reading the comic, so I forgot about that part. It still comes off as mighty convenient though. I could see if Ravage needed to do a sweep of the planet to locate the Axalon and Darkside in order to carry out his mission. But to then take the time to locate all stasis pods and transmit all the data back to Magmatron through a transwarp rift in space too? That's pushing it.

The Maximals were able to activate Tigatron's stasis pod using a laser pulse transmission that they bounced off one of the moons in the cartoon. And the only reason they said they couldn't use just a regular comm channel was because of the energon fields. With those fields pretty much gone by the 3rd season, there was no reason why Magmatron's team with the right equipment and their own programming specialist couldn't activate them and turn them into Predacons all at once.

Goddamit. I guess you're right. . .

How is the premise broken from the start? Recruiting an army of already existing Predacons would take a great deal of time, especially with how secretive Magmatron would have to be planning a coup with how close he is to the Tripredacus Council. He indicates they already don't really trust him and all it would take is one not loyal to him to ruin the plan (as Razorbeast goes to show). Finding a bunch of abandoned stasis pods is the most cost-effective plan they could have hoped for. Had all gone according to plan, Magmatron would have had a small personal army in just a few hours as apposed to potentially years to slowly recruit as many Predacons in secret on Cybertron.

And while I'd agree part of the reason the story was set up as it was is because they wanted to tie into the popularity of the cartoon, that wasn't the only reason. The comic does tell its own story, following its own characters.

I was always under the impression that the last of the stasis pods were dead or beyond recovery. I recall reading an interview with Bob 'n' Larry a long time ago where they stated as much, though we've seen how well their behind-the-scenes intentions translate into the show (or supporting material). But do notice that every stasis pod that falls from "Coming of the Fuzors part 2" and on is either dead or horribly screwed up in some way. Even Rampage was dead upon arrival. Were it not for his immortal spark, he likely would've remained that way. Also that the Maximals no longer make any effort to recover the last of the pods. So for me, I guess it was always just assumed as fact that there were no more soldiers to be gained from downed stasis pods. So here comes the comic, and it's set during the 3rd season when all remaining pods would've been useless, and it all works out just fine.

That, and I really hated the comics anyway. That might have something to do with it. You do bring up some valid points, and I guess it could still work as you say. I'll concede on the plausibility of it all, but still maintain that it was stupid.

Mako Crab wrote:I'm guessing that even if he gained all the protoforms on Earth as new Predacon recruits, he'd still be woefully outnumbered.

Probably. But the amount of troops he would have gotten from the stasis pods would have certainly helped bolster his ranks greatly. With a surprise attack and that many troops, he could have pulled off his coup.

But to then take the time to locate all stasis pods and transmit all the data back to Magmatron through a transwarp rift in space too? That's pushing it.

How is that pushing it? As you said, Ravage would have to scan the planet to locate the Axalon and 'Darksyde' anyway. What's a few more moments to locate the stasis pods and transmit the data to Magmatron?

I was always under the impression that the last of the stasis pods were dead or beyond recovery. I recall reading an interview with Bob 'n' Larry a long time ago where they stated as much, though we've seen how well their behind-the-scenes intentions translate into the show (or supporting material). But do notice that every stasis pod that falls from "Coming of the Fuzors part 2" and on is either dead or horribly screwed up in some way. Even Rampage was dead upon arrival. Were it not for his immortal spark, he likely would've remained that way.

Even so, Bob 'n' Larry kept the fates of the stasis pods open ended in the show, in case they ever needed a stray stasis pod to show up, which did happen a few times. While the ones we saw in the show were damaged, there did seem to be a range in their condition, leaving the possibility others could have survived at least.

Also that the Maximals no longer make any effort to recover the last of the pods. So for me, I guess it was always just assumed as fact that there were no more soldiers to be gained from downed stasis pods.

Well the Maximals had Tigatron and Airazor go looking for them, only for them to be abducted by the Vok a short time later. With limited resources and their continuing battle with Megatron, they really couldn't spare to have anyone else go looking for any stasis pods that may have survived.

That, and I really hated the comics anyway. That might have something to do with it. You do bring up some valid points, and I guess it could still work as you say. I'll concede on the plausibility of it all, but still maintain that it was stupid.

I can see how the comic rubbed some fans the wrong way... But I think it gets dished on more than it deserves personally. As I've said, I thought it had some great ideas but some bad execution.

Y'know, there's a lot of if's could haves and possibles in this argument. I think what Mako is trying to say is that it seems like an awful lot of the premise is hinged on the word "plausible" and that's not a good basis for a story. Yeah, it's PLAUSIBLE that stasis pods could have survived. It's PLAUSIBLE that Ravage could have found them and it's PLAUSIBLE that he also could have sent a signal. It's all PLAUSIBLE, but not LIKELY. It's a little bit like Boba Fett. There have been whole books written about Fett jumping out of Sarlacc after Jedi. It's PLAUSIBLE that he could have had time to fix his rocket pack and flown out, but it's not LIKELY. And, now that Lucas has actually said that the EU stuff doesn't count, we know he died like a bitch in Sarlacc. The problem with Gathering/Ascending is that Furman is basically telling us that not only is all of the unlikely stuff plausible but that's what actually happened. He's asking us to take a lot of faith and frankly, I ain't buying it.

Shockwave
-Totally still bought it.

Sparky Prime wrote:

But to then take the time to locate all stasis pods and transmit all the data back to Magmatron through a transwarp rift in space too? That's pushing it.

How is that pushing it? As you said, Ravage would have to scan the planet to locate the Axalon and 'Darksyde' anyway. What's a few more moments to locate the stasis pods and transmit the data to Magmatron?

Oh, that. See, if it were that easy for Ravage to locate all of the fallen stasis pods, then you'd think the Maximals and Predacons would've already been all over them. Instead we have episodes like Transmutate where Rattrap is genuinely shocked to locate a pod. Then consider that the Axalon is an exploration vessel equipped with the kind of tools a science crew would need to survey planets. That's a far cry from an experimental spy plane. The fact that both crews were forced to search for any remaining stasis pods by hand kind of speaks to the difficulty of the task.
The comics ask us to forget all that and just accept that Ravage found all the stasis pods with a quick 'n' easy planetary scan he did while he was cruising over to the Axalon. Ravage. Not a scientist. Not a technical expert. Just a spy and warrior. In a ship designed for combat, not exploration. Not saying that he *couldn't* do it, just that the Maximals and Preds should have been able to as well with experts on both teams and the specialized equipment at their disposal and the fact that they had way more time than Ravage.

Even so, Bob 'n' Larry kept the fates of the stasis pods open ended in the show, in case they ever needed a stray stasis pod to show up, which did happen a few times. While the ones we saw in the show were damaged, there did seem to be a range in their condition, leaving the possibility others could have survived at least.

I just rewatched the start of "Feral Scream part 1" and they do say that Dinobot 2's protoform was still alive, so you got me there. I thought they had just used the half of Rampage's spark to bring it to life.

Well the Maximals had Tigatron and Airazor go looking for them, only for them to be abducted by the Vok a short time later. With limited resources and their continuing battle with Megatron, they really couldn't spare to have anyone else go looking for any stasis pods that may have survived.

As you point out, they had to search for them on foot. Some pods, like Dinobot 2's did have beacons, but then there were others like Transmutate's pod, which Rattrap was genuinely surprised to find.

I can see how the comic rubbed some fans the wrong way... But I think it gets dished on more than it deserves personally. As I've said, I thought it had some great ideas but some bad execution.

Nah, it gets about the right amount of dishing. Furman really phoned this one in.

And Shockwave- good call. That summed it up nicely.

Shockwave wrote:Don't worry about it Prowl, you didn't miss much. It was hilarious at first, but I find that it hasn't really aged well. When I watch it now I just find it annoying. Besides, you were probably enjoying some awesome anime or something. And as long as you do what you enjoy, that's all that matters. Be yourself and no one can take that away from you.

Shockwave, let me say I'm genuinely thankful for your repeated assertion that watching anime is somehow an awesome thing to do. That amuses me quite a bit, and makes me feel just a bit better.

Shockwave wrote:Y'know, there's a lot of if's could haves and possibles in this argument.

Aside from some hypothetical 'had Magmatron's plans worked' or 'if the story had done this'.... I'm not seeing what you mean by that.

I think what Mako is trying to say is that it seems like an awful lot of the premise is hinged on the word "plausible" and that's not a good basis for a story. Yeah, it's PLAUSIBLE that stasis pods could have survived. It's PLAUSIBLE that Ravage could have found them and it's PLAUSIBLE that he also could have sent a signal. It's all PLAUSIBLE, but not LIKELY.

Why is something plausible not a good basis for a story? I mean, a lot of science fiction is based on what's plausible to various degrees of likelihood, and many of those are great stories. Like say, I don't know.... a race of transforming alien robots?
And how is any of that not likely? We saw at least 6 stasis pods in the show survived (mostly) in one piece. Why is it any different for the comic? Granted, it's a bit of a stretch to see so many had survived in the comic, but with how open ended the cartoon was about it, there's no reason to assume it isn't likely. Same thing with Ravage. He would have had to scan the planet to find the Maximals and Predacons anyway. Why wouldn't he be able to detect some of the stasis pods along the way? And report the status before he began the mission operations?

Mako Crab wrote:Oh, that. See, if it were that easy for Ravage to locate all of the fallen stasis pods, then you'd think the Maximals and Predacons would've already been all over them. Instead we have episodes like Transmutate where Rattrap is genuinely shocked to locate a pod. Then consider that the Axalon is an exploration vessel equipped with the kind of tools a science crew would need to survey planets. That's a far cry from an experimental spy plane. The fact that both crews were forced to search for any remaining stasis pods by hand kind of speaks to the difficulty of the task.
The comics ask us to forget all that and just accept that Ravage found all the stasis pods with a quick 'n' easy planetary scan he did while he was cruising over to the Axalon. Ravage. Not a scientist. Not a technical expert. Just a spy and warrior. In a ship designed for combat, not exploration. Not saying that he *couldn't* do it, just that the Maximals and Preds should have been able to as well with experts on both teams and the specialized equipment at their disposal and the fact that they had way more time than Ravage.

You seem to be overlooking the condition of the Maximal and Predacon ships. Both had taken a great deal of damaged from the initial crash, various battles, energon storms, the Quantum Surge and what ever else... They were lucky to have their ships still, more or less, in one piece. As I said, they didn't have the resources at that point to find all the stasis pods, aside from sending a couple scouts to try and visually locate them.
Ravage's ship on the other hand was pristine. And even if he only had the most basic of sensor equipment (which I'd actually think a spy ship should have some really good equipment), how hard would it be for a ship in good condition to find Cybertronian technology on a technologically undeveloped planet?

Sparky Prime wrote:

Mako Crab wrote:I'm guessing that even if he gained all the protoforms on Earth as new Predacon recruits, he'd still be woefully outnumbered.

Probably. But the amount of troops he would have gotten from the stasis pods would have certainly helped bolster his ranks greatly. With a surprise attack and that many troops, he could have pulled off his coup.

But to then take the time to locate all stasis pods and transmit all the data back to Magmatron through a transwarp rift in space too? That's pushing it.

How is that pushing it? As you said, Ravage would have to scan the planet to locate the Axalon and 'Darksyde' anyway. What's a few more moments to locate the stasis pods and transmit the data to Magmatron?

I was always under the impression that the last of the stasis pods were dead or beyond recovery. I recall reading an interview with Bob 'n' Larry a long time ago where they stated as much, though we've seen how well their behind-the-scenes intentions translate into the show (or supporting material). But do notice that every stasis pod that falls from "Coming of the Fuzors part 2" and on is either dead or horribly screwed up in some way. Even Rampage was dead upon arrival. Were it not for his immortal spark, he likely would've remained that way.

Even so, Bob 'n' Larry kept the fates of the stasis pods open ended in the show, in case they ever needed a stray stasis pod to show up, which did happen a few times. While the ones we saw in the show were damaged, there did seem to be a range in their condition, leaving the possibility others could have survived at least.

Also that the Maximals no longer make any effort to recover the last of the pods. So for me, I guess it was always just assumed as fact that there were no more soldiers to be gained from downed stasis pods.

Well the Maximals had Tigatron and Airazor go looking for them, only for them to be abducted by the Vok a short time later. With limited resources and their continuing battle with Megatron, they really couldn't spare to have anyone else go looking for any stasis pods that may have survived.

That, and I really hated the comics anyway. That might have something to do with it. You do bring up some valid points, and I guess it could still work as you say. I'll concede on the plausibility of it all, but still maintain that it was stupid.

I can see how the comic rubbed some fans the wrong way... But I think it gets dished on more than it deserves personally. As I've said, I thought it had some great ideas but some bad execution.

Well I've highlighted at least five instances of either "would have", "could have" or variants there of and I was being pretty generous, there's actually more. But I guess my point is that Plausible is fine but after a certain point, it just reaches too absurd a level to be regarded as anything other than bullshit. I guess the BW comic just asked me to take too much on faith that it went past my bullshitometer. It's like Furman was saying "ok, if these five exact conditions were exactly right then here's what happened". Sorry, not buying it. So for me, between the terminal bullshitocity and the lack of events using the characters I actually liked, it was just too much epic fail for me.

BWprowl wrote:

Shockwave wrote:Don't worry about it Prowl, you didn't miss much. It was hilarious at first, but I find that it hasn't really aged well. When I watch it now I just find it annoying. Besides, you were probably enjoying some awesome anime or something. And as long as you do what you enjoy, that's all that matters. Be yourself and no one can take that away from you.

Shockwave, let me say I'm genuinely thankful for your repeated assertion that watching anime is somehow an awesome thing to do. That amuses me quite a bit, and makes me feel just a bit better.

Hey, glad I could help Anime might not be my thing, but I know it's yours and you should own it. Own it, live it, love it. It's part of what makes you you and you should never have to make apologies for that.