Comics are awesome.

[Dominic]

"War Within"
Couldn't disagree more! WW is a perfect example of everything I dislike in Transformers. Entirely insular, pandering to G1 fans, and the contrived pre-Earth forms... my goodness, the Predacons' altmodes actually made me LOL. Car with horns. Ahuh. Found the art totally unengaging, too, as I did with all DW's stuff.

How was it insular? Aside from one or two panels, there was nothing that required the reader to know anything about TF before reading it. Tantrum's alternate mode was fine. He had cannons instead of horns. The original character profile listed him as being able to fire lightining from his horns, so ranged weapons like cannons are not terribly out of place.

I also much prefer the weapons the TFs have in their tech specs to the generic lasers almost every other interpretation gives them. Acid pellets and torque rifles and friction-enhancers are waaaay cooler than pew-pew-pew. I know, lasers are cheaper to draw.

Lasers are not really cheaper to draw. But, they are easier for writers and artists to keep track of. I do agree that the specialized weapons are preferable to generic weapons. But, that is largely another topic.


Dom
-time to make a new post.

[Dominic]

The only Genre with a capital g I'd say I like as a *rule* is fantastic realism. Now, I know Gabriel Garcia Marquez is never gonna write a TF comic, but I at least expect a BIT of kitchen sinkery in my fiction. I don't really say how it's restrictive to give a writer the brief: "Write a story about sentient robots fighting a civil war that have to disguise themselves as Earth machines in order to avoid detection and gather fuel, using these interesting basic character concepts, BUT DON'T GO TO SPACE OR USE MAGIC".

How would define "fantastic realism" though? Ditto for "kitchen sinkery". "Robots in disguise" is a good starting point. But, it should not be a fixed point. I am less annoyed by the use of magic in stories than the use of magic as an all purpose McGuffin-crutch for lazy writers, (and I include "magic" in the form of all purpose tech in soft sci-fi here).

Basically, if a franchise strays too far from its central concept (as I believe TF has), it may as well be *anything*. A lot of TF stories set in space just remind me of Star Trek (I'm not a sci-fi buff, sue me). But if I *wanted* questions about whether we should interfere with alien races, or problems with the hyperdrive overwarp nuance thruster, or evil versions of the protagonists with goatees (Shattered Glass), I'd *watch* Star Trek.

Why should any franchise have a lock on certain concepts, or be barred from using other concepts that another franchise "owns"? "Squadron Supreme" is far better than "Watchmen". But, should Moore have been barred from writing a story with similar concepts to Gruenwald's masterwork?


Dom
-close to defending Grant Morrison...and needs a shower for it.

[Dominic]

[steps out of shower]

At the end of the day, I care less about "Transformers" as a franchise or as a set of characters than I do about what is being done with it. I am more interested in what Mike Costa is doing with TF than in the fact it is TF. There are more ideas in his slightly more than year long run on TF than there are in volumes of episodes that are "true to the concept" of "Transformers".

Restricting a franchise to being "true to a concept" can result in some incredibly bad writing and characterization for the sake of that fidelity. (Reference the debate earlier this year over my comments about Picard being a reprehensible Captain for his handling of the Borg in "I Borg".) Look at "GI Joe". The real irony with the franchise is that some of the best writing in the original run was focused on a Greek Tragedy that used ninjas, a far cry from any sort of military fiction. Attempts to keep it "true" have resulted in "GI Joe" the franchise being as regressive as much of the fandom is.

The problem wth "Batman Incorporated" is not that it undermines the concept of Batman/Bruce Wayne. It is actually a sensible modernization of it. Bruce Wayne as a vigiliante venture capitalist makes perfect sense. The idea is sound. And, Morrison definitely has the chops to write it. The problem is that the idea will not be expanded on or used in any meaningful way in the long term, owing to DC restricting how much can be done with core characters.


Dom
-tempted by Costa's run on "GI Joe".

[Gomess]

That's the thing about animal Transformers. They were NEVER intended to transform into vehicles from a design perspective, so retcons like that (I know, saying "retcon" in a WW discussion is redundant) just smell of fanwankery to me. I don't mind "What If? The G1 TFs Had Scanned Animals"-type stories, but when it's shoehorned in with the normal continuity it just seems *forced*. I'm sure they had a lot of fun deciding what vehicles the Predacons would turn into, and heck, I LOVED the Insectrain, but that was an alternate universe. If guns = horns, then what are wheels? Legs? But Longrack's Cybertronian mode had tracks!! ....See? This is TFCC comic-calibre character design, in my opinion. =p

I felt that WW did require prior knowledge, as did several other of my friends. I know, there'll be plenty of people out there who knew nothing about TF that could've gotten a kick out of a story about a planet of sentient robots that transform into vehicles for no apparent reason, but I don't know any. It also came off as insular because of its narrow scope; I know, I'm always moaning about Prime Vs. Megatron stories, but WW just didn't seem to have any ambition. Prime and Megatron were flat and charmless, Good Guy With Weighty Destiny vs. Machiavellian Mastermind, just like any given G1 episode.

The reference to the Golden Disc was just a little too neat and a little too soon for me, and I also have a major problem with prequels in general; I always know how they're going to end, y'know? It takes a lot to add something to a prequel, for me. And you just know that WW would've ended up overwriting the original BW anyway, so they may as well have not included the reference! Prequel writers just *can't* resist feeding their stories to the point where they interfere with their supposed sequel. All in all, WW didn't tick any of my boxes.

[Gomess]

Fantastic realism is, in my opinion (it's a divisive subject), any work of fiction that mixes 70% stone-cold realism with 30% magic. It's actually a very rare genre in English-language media, with the only things even approaching the aforementioned Marquez being... um... Highlander (sword fights in car parks)? Benjamin Button (unexplained magical element that doesn't *precisely* drive the plot)? Harry Potter (Dickensian imagery gives way to literal hidden world of magic)?

One of Marquez' best novels is about someone who lives to 1,000. Now, there's no swords, dragons, time machines or lasers; the protagonist just happens to be exceptionally old. Their near-immortality occasionally informs the plot, but MOST of it is defined by the decisions they make. Which are, of course, informed by their many years on the planet.

"Kitchensinkery" is a derivation of my own, from "kitchen sink drama", a British term for any adult drama centred on a modern, working-class homestead. Look Back in Anger is a great example. Dialogue frequently consists of line-speech arguments between parties whose main concerns sway between paying their bills and getting their photography career started. Billy Elliot, anyone?

Aaaaanyway. Agreed on there not being One Rule for All. I certainly don't believe every work of fiction should refuse to evolve, but I think the evolution must respect its starting point. One of the first real lessons I learned as a writer was to, every paragraph I'd written, go back and read my title again, to keep me on-track. My grades skyrocketed.

[andersonh1]

No offense, but ugh.... If that reads even half as much like fanfic as it sounds like.....Barry-lax?

Yeah, I'm reserving judgment on that until I see what they do with it next month. Parallax was effective for awhile, but once Hal used him and then was able to rather easily break free during "Blackest Night", Parallax suffered a severe case of villain decay. I have the feeling that we're seeing more of that here, honestly.

But what I want to know is this: how did Parallax even get to Barry? How does anything ever get to the Flash? Shouldn't he be so fast that nothing can catch him?

Black Hand is reformed? Wha?

It looks more like the Indigo tribe are controlling him. I don't think he's genuinely reformed.

[Sparky Prime]

No offense, but ugh.... If that reads even half as much like fanfic as it sounds like.....Barry-lax? Black Hand is reformed? Wha?

You don't give the story enough credit Dom. Black Hand isn't really reformed. The Indigo ring is controlling his emotions, forcing him to feel Compassion. This actually leads Hal to wonder what all of the Indigo Tribe members were like with out their rings, if perhaps they were all criminals like Black Hand. He doesn't know if he can trust them, and it almost leads to a fight until Parallax shows up. And possessing Barry was a great twist.

[Sparky Prime]

But what I want to know is this: how did Parallax even get to Barry? How does anything ever get to the Flash? Shouldn't he be so fast that nothing can catch him?

Between the shock/confusion of Parallax suddenly showing up, and then smashing the roof Barry was standing on, I think that kept Flash off balance just long enough for Parallax to grab him.

[Dominic]

It takes a lot to add something to a prequel, for me. And you just know that WW would've ended up overwriting the original BW anyway, so they may as well have not included the reference!

DW never made any promises to hold to previous content. But, they did have plans for a BW series. In the context of WW, the disk was explained and disposed of. No harm, no foul.

The G1 TFs Had Scanned Animals"-type stories, but when it's shoehorned in with the normal continuity it just seems *forced*.

i would argue it is more forced for them to have animal modes for no reason. Why exactly was Lazerbeak a bird? His disguise as a tape worked...sort of. But, why did he modify his combat mode to vaguely resemble a bird after he got to Earth? Why would the Ark modify him in such a way? It is even more forced to assume that certain characters should have beast modes because "they always have had them since I was a kid".

If nothing else, Figueroa's character designs were a good blend of old, (thus keeping the characters recognizable), and new (keeping them from being dated).

I'm always moaning about Prime Vs. Megatron stories, but WW just didn't seem to have any ambition. Prime and Megatron were flat and charmless, Good Guy With Weighty Destiny vs. Machiavellian Mastermind, just like any given G1 episode.

How are you defining "flat and charmless"? The dynamic between the two was similar to many stories, not merely TF stories. By "prior knowledge", I am talking more about having in-depth information about the hobby and its history. Just the name "Transformers" implies some kind of changing for the characters. Vehicle modes would be useful for transport or combat. Check DvD's excellent article for more on this line of thinking: http://www.eyrie.org/~dvandom/BW/Fanfic/ThreeD Megatron is even shown using his tank for when he needs firepower instead of mobility. Flying is presumably easier for Starscream and co when they are not in robot mode.

[Dominic]

Fantastic realism is, in my opinion (it's a divisive subject), any work of fiction that mixes 70% stone-cold realism with 30% magic.

But, wouldn't it make sense for that 70% realism to include the idea that a space-faring species is going to be on more than one planet, and that an interplanetary war would ahve important events happening on more than one planet? "Realism" is a nasty concept eh?

Between the shock/confusion of Parallax suddenly showing up, and then smashing the roof Barry was standing on, I think that kept Flash off balance just long enough for Parallax to grab him.

More fundamentally, Barry was never written to be fearless. He just overcame his fears with...willpower. Hal got a ring for his ability to overcome fear, not a lack of it. If Hal is going to get the yellow scabies, a guy who was not offered a green ring is totally getting them.

Waid's run on the book established that Barry did have worries, flying being among them. (His powers would be of little use on a crashing plane, meaning he would be stuck watching other people panic and die.)


Dom
-ain't read any comics this week.