All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

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Sparky Prime
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Sparky Prime »

Dominic wrote:Well, more correctly, the Matrix gave Starscream the chance to lie.
Still doesn't change that the lie Starscream is 'chosen' is more important than the Matrix itself in this situation. And a trophy isn't much use.
(Really, if things are going well, and your basic needs are met, do you care how the leader got the job? No, really. Do not lie. Yup. Thought so.)
You're kidding right? We've got plenty of examples of government leaders who go under investigation for lying on lesser things. Whether they are fired or not depends on the severity of their actions, but certainly if they lied to get the position, they wouldn't be allowed to keep it. It doesn't matter if they are doing a good job or not. Do you really think the Decepticons will care if Starscream is doing a good job if they find out he lied to get the position in the first place? All they'll care about is he isn't actually their 'chosen' leader.
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Dominic »

And a trophy isn't much use.
Trophies are valuable tools for motivating populations.

And, if Starscream did a good job, nobody would care how he got it. If he bungled, then yes, the Decepticons would punish him. But, if he kept the party going, most of the Decepticons would not give it a second thought, even if they knew how he got it.

Look at local politics. If an official takes care of his guys, they are fine with him, regardless of what rumours/truths may be spoken. Of course, if he screws up...then the party is over.

Dom
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Shockwave »

Dominic wrote:
And a trophy isn't much use.
Trophies are valuable tools for motivating populations.

And, if Starscream did a good job, nobody would care how he got it. If he bungled, then yes, the Decepticons would punish him. But, if he kept the party going, most of the Decepticons would not give it a second thought, even if they knew how he got it.

Look at local politics. If an official takes care of his guys, they are fine with him, regardless of what rumours/truths may be spoken. Of course, if he screws up...then the party is over.

Dom
The Decepticon army isn't a democracy like what we've got (I know I know, technically we're a representative republic, but my point is still valid). They have no "chosen" leader, the leader takes command of the Decepticons by force. Starscream's lament is that Megatron had the force necessary to retain command of all Decepticons everywhere and that without him, no single Decepticon would have that much power and they would split off into individual factions. At present he's saying that the Autobot Matrix chose him to be leader of the Decepticons which is an inherent flaw in logic unto itself. Starscream is betting that his claim will allow him to retain command of all Decepticons, not just the ones aboard Astrotrain. Whether or not he can retain command once the truth is discovered is more a matter of whether or not he will be strong enough that the other Decepticons would be afraid to move against him.
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

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Dominic wrote:Trophies are valuable tools for motivating populations.
Only in order to obtain said trophy, once it is rightfully claimed though, it isn't much use to any one else. In this case, the Matrix rightfully belongs to Optimus.
And, if Starscream did a good job, nobody would care how he got it. If he bungled, then yes, the Decepticons would punish him. But, if he kept the party going, most of the Decepticons would not give it a second thought, even if they knew how he got it.

Look at local politics. If an official takes care of his guys, they are fine with him, regardless of what rumours/truths may be spoken. Of course, if he screws up...then the party is over.
No, it wouldn't matter how Starscream took care of his guys, once the truth gets out, the Decepticons wouldn't care. The Decepticons are about earning leadership, usually be defeating the previous leader. Starscream hasn't earned that. He lied to get it and thus is not a true leader of the Decepticons. That's all the Decepticons would be focused on.

As for local politics, once the truth gets out they lied about something, they always get into trouble. Again, there are numerous examples of this.
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Dominic »

The Decepticon army isn't a democracy like what we've got (I know I know, technically we're a representative republic, but my point is still valid). They have no "chosen" leader, the leader takes command of the Decepticons by force.
All leaders are consented to, if not chosen. The consent may be based on a rational calculus (punctual trains and clean streets), or it may be based on coercion (better red than dead). But, followers have to agree to follow a leader. In Starscream's case, the consent is based on the fact that he has a heck of trophy.

Only in order to obtain said trophy, once it is rightfully claimed though, it isn't much use to any one else. In this case, the Matrix rightfully belongs to Optimus.
Trophies carry symbolic and political value. Possession is seen as being a warrant of virtue. The principle applies to the conquest of major/capital cities. Look at the trouble surrounding Jerusalem. Objectively, the real estate is not that valuable. But, mix in religious and hisoric significance, and people become (literally) insane. In the case of Transformers, where most (if not all) of their major political and historic sites are uninhabitable, an object like the Matrix would become even more valuable, regardless of its RPG cheese-factor.
No, it wouldn't matter how Starscream took care of his guys, once the truth gets out, the Decepticons wouldn't care. The Decepticons are about earning leadership, usually be defeating the previous leader. Starscream hasn't earned that. He lied to get it and thus is not a true leader of the Decepticons. That's all the Decepticons would be focused on.
Yes, Starscream would have to fend off some abitious would-be leaders. But, for the most part, as shown in AHM, if one can keep the Decepticons occupied, (as Megatron tried to do), that is usually enough. Along with clean streets and punctual trains, the Decepticons need something (usually involving some kind of violence) to do. If Starscream could manage that, most of the Decepticons would be appeased. Thundercracker was the only one who, at a fundamental level, seemed to buy into the Decepticon party line. And, he is dead now.
As for local politics, once the truth gets out they lied about something, they always get into trouble. Again, there are numerous examples of this.
They do not "always get into trouble". I have seen, (and personally known), local guys who have been caught, and suffered no real consequence. And, when they do get into trouble, it usually happens one of two ways.

The local guy screws up so badly, usually wronging a fair amount of constituents in the process), that his supporters cease being supportive. Or, the trouble comes from outside, from parties who are not supporters, such as state and federal official who simply do not care about local politics, but do care about scoring a conviction. Guys who go down in the latter scenario still enjoy a measure of support from their guys though.

Even if Starscream's lie is believed, he would still have to fend off ambitious subordinates and deal with external threats. Even is Starscream were being honest, he would have those problems. Frankly, his biggest problem is that he took the job in the first place, regardless of how he got it.

Dom
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

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Dominic wrote:Trophies carry symbolic and political value. Possession is seen as being a warrant of virtue. The principle applies to the conquest of major/capital cities. Look at the trouble surrounding Jerusalem. Objectively, the real estate is not that valuable. But, mix in religious and hisoric significance, and people become (literally) insane. In the case of Transformers, where most (if not all) of their major political and historic sites are uninhabitable, an object like the Matrix would become even more valuable, regardless of its RPG cheese-factor.
I don't see Jerusalem as a trophy personally. A city of great historic and religious importance certainly, being the reason it is so fought over, but not a trophy. And no trophy I can think of has any sort of political value. A trophy is simply reward for a specific achievement. The Matrix is no reward in this case. It was stolen by Megatron and then Starscream stumbled into possession of it. Being as how Optimus is the 'chosen one' by the Matrix itself, he is the only one that can truely claim it.
Yes, Starscream would have to fend off some abitious would-be leaders. But, for the most part, as shown in AHM, if one can keep the Decepticons occupied, (as Megatron tried to do), that is usually enough. Along with clean streets and punctual trains, the Decepticons need something (usually involving some kind of violence) to do. If Starscream could manage that, most of the Decepticons would be appeased. Thundercracker was the only one who, at a fundamental level, seemed to buy into the Decepticon party line. And, he is dead now.
The difference with Megatron is that he actually is the Decepticons tried and true leader. The Decepticon army has pledged themselves to his command. Starscream has not earned that. Appeasing the Decepticons will not prevent them from removing him from leadership once they know it was all a lie. Leadership is something that must be earned with the Decepticons, not cheated.
They do not "always get into trouble". I have seen, (and personally known), local guys who have been caught, and suffered no real consequence. And, when they do get into trouble, it usually happens one of two ways.
Caught with what? As I said before, it does depend on the severity of their actions. Look at President Clinton for example and his lies surrounding the affair he had while in office. He was Impeached for that and was nearly voted out of office and to this day he is still highly scrutinized for that incident. There are always consequences. Anytime such news reaches the press, it's serious business.
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

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I don't see Jerusalem as a trophy personally. A city of great historic and religious importance certainly, being the reason it is so fought over, but not a trophy. And no trophy I can think of has any sort of political value. A trophy is simply reward for a specific achievement. The Matrix is no reward in this case. It was stolen by Megatron and then Starscream stumbled into possession of it. Being as how Optimus is the 'chosen one' by the Matrix itself, he is the only one that can truely claim it.
Trophies are traditionally taken or claimed. (Think of sports as a proxy for real confict, unless you are an English Football fan, in which case it is less a proxy and more actual conflict.) The trophy is a tangible representation of the concept of victory.

Jerusalem's religious, political and historic value is why it is fought over. It value makes it a nice jewel in the crown of who ever happens to control it. It would feel good to have rather than actually being materially good to have. Some cities are materially worth fighting for, as they offer control of water ways or some other resource. Jerusalem's chief value is symbolic. Outside of Hobbesian warfare, people are more likely to fight for symbolic reasons than for practical ones.

The Matrix has political and historic value. (There is likely also some religious value to it.) Yes, those are primarily symbolic things, but the can be used to motivate others. In other words, The Matrix has "look what I got" value. Optimus may have legal and moral right ot the Matrix. But, Starscream has it in hand, and thus has the opportunity to exploit the fact the Matrix has the above mentioned value.


The difference with Megatron is that he actually is the Decepticons tried and true leader. The Decepticon army has pledged themselves to his command. Starscream has not earned that. Appeasing the Decepticons will not prevent them from removing him from leadership once they know it was all a lie. Leadership is something that must be earned with the Decepticons, not cheated.
But, most of the Decepticons do not seem to care about the faction's ideals. Skywarp had a simpleton's patriotism, and even he was bored during Megatron's speech in issue...4(?). At the end of the day, the Decepticons just want to be busy with something. If Starscream could manage to keep them busy, (maybe framing Razorclaw and co as a new other), he could do pretty well. This does not mean a sensible person would want the job. But, if you had the job, it would be conceptually easy to keep.


Caught with what?
Caught with their hands in the cookie jar, or booze in their bellies.


As I said before, it does depend on the severity of their actions. Look at President Clinton for example and his lies surrounding the affair he had while in office. He was Impeached for that and was nearly voted out of office and to this day he is still highly scrutinized for that incident. There are always consequences. Anytime such news reaches the press, it's serious business.
The press is less an issue than public opinion though.

In the case of local guys, it is very easy to keep public opinion favorable by being a nice guy, shaking some hands, and talking to residents (who are probably your neighbors) about their concerns. Throw in some patronage, (not as much in the past as some would think), and support is easy enough to maintain.

Clinton actually illustrates my point. Yeah, he got impeached. "Impeachment" is basically a fancy term for "put on trial". He was not convicted, because he had a partisan majority who stood with him. Public opinion was consistently favorable in part because things were going well. Nobody *cared* that Clinton messed around because it was the 90s, and life was a party. The economy was good. Heck, I was a partisan conservative at the time, and I really did not care. (Oh, the impeachment was fun certainly. The news was fun to watch and comment on. But, at a basic level, I did not really care.)

Clinton was not "nearly voted out". If he was convicted, (unlikely with the partisan breakdown and public opinion polls), he would have been in trouble. But, he was not, and it was unlikely that he would have been. It may not have been fun for him. But, the practical impact was minimal. He actually polls pretty highly now, and many people look back on his administration fondly. (You do not have to like the guy, but man is he smooth.)


Dom
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

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Dominic wrote:Trophies are traditionally taken or claimed. (Think of sports as a proxy for real confict, unless you are an English Football fan, in which case it is less a proxy and more actual conflict.) The trophy is a tangible representation of the concept of victory.
Again, the trophy must be earned by the victory, it is not something that can simply be taken if it was not earned.
Jerusalem's religious, political and historic value is why it is fought over.
Primarily, it'd be religious aspect of why it is so fought over. So many religions see it as their holy city but clash with each other in their religious beliefs that they don't want others of different faiths there at all. This is nothing like the situation with the Matrix.
Optimus may have legal and moral right ot the Matrix. But, Starscream has it in hand, and thus has the opportunity to exploit the fact the Matrix has the above mentioned value.
That's the thing though, with out actually having the rights to the Matrix, Starscream will loose that support once they found out he lied about it.
But, most of the Decepticons do not seem to care about the faction's ideals.
Even Starscream (the king of backstabbing) himself said over a broken Megatron that leadership of the Decepticons can not just be magically handed over, that their leadership had to be earned. Taking it by other means can only spell disaster.
Caught with their hands in the cookie jar, or booze in their bellies.
Is that it? Hardly sounds like the most serious of offenses.
The press is less an issue than public opinion though.
I disagree. Once the press get a hold of a juice story, they don't let it go. Big news means big ratings. And the media can have an effect on public opinion.
Clinton actually illustrates my point. Yeah, he got impeached. "Impeachment" is basically a fancy term for "put on trial". He was not convicted, because he had a partisan majority who stood with him. Public opinion was consistently favorable in part because things were going well. Nobody *cared* that Clinton messed around because it was the 90s, and life was a party. The economy was good. Heck, I was a partisan conservative at the time, and I really did not care. (Oh, the impeachment was fun certainly. The news was fun to watch and comment on. But, at a basic level, I did not really care.)
You're missing my point. He did get in trouble for his actions, and people most certainly did care, until they got tired of hearing about it. All news could talk about for the longest time was this story and it still gets brought up every now and then, usually to poke fun at him these days or criticize his misconduct while he was in office. And he did come closer to that conviction then you let on.
Clinton was not "nearly voted out".
You are incorrect. Had he been convicted, he would have also been removed from office and the vote was not far from the two-thirds majority requirement. 55 senators voted to acquit, 45 voted to convict and on the obstruction charge the Senate voted 50-50.
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Dominic »

Again, the trophy must be earned by the victory, it is not something that can simply be taken if it was not earned.
But, sometimes the taking is the earning. Battle trophies are messier to get than say....sports or spelling bee trophies.

Primarily, it'd be religious aspect of why it is so fought over. So many religions see it as their holy city but clash with each other in their religious beliefs that they don't want others of different faiths there at all. This is nothing like the situation with the Matrix.
Historic and religious significance can have similar effects, rational or not. And, Shrapnel's reaction when he sees the Matrix proves that the object itself has some recognized value, even if it is not saving the universe.

Even Starscream (the king of backstabbing) himself said over a broken Megatron that leadership of the Decepticons can not just be magically handed over, that their leadership had to be earned. Taking it by other means can only spell disaster.
Starscream's problem is that he needs Megatron dead, but he cannot kill Megatron publicly. If the sniper had killed Megatron outright, then Starscream could take over. If Megatron was healthy, and Starscream killed him, that would also work. Right now, Starscream is acting leader of a group that is trying to get their current leader healthy again.

If Megatron dies of natural causes, then Starscream can just take over (albeit likely having to fight a few guys), and would not need the Matrix. But, lying was a politically expedient way to get a shot at leadership. Starscream just has no margin for error.
Is that it? Hardly sounds like the most serious of offenses.
Keep in mind, the scale. There is only so much one can do at the local level. And, some local guys plunder like you would not believe. But, they still have public support.

I disagree. Once the press get a hold of a juice story, they don't let it go. Big news means big ratings. And the media can have an effect on public opinion.
There is a difference between having public interest in a story, and swaying opinion. People might like to read about sex scandals, (to use Clinton), but they will not necessarily vote based on them. The same principle applies locally. I might enjoy reading about my guy's bad behavior. But, if he delivers for me while in office, I want to keep him there, regardless of what else he has done. People may read a newspaper, but they will not act on it.

You are incorrect. Had he been convicted, he would have also been removed from office and the vote was not far from the two-thirds majority requirement. 55 senators voted to acquit, 45 voted to convict and on the obstruction charge the Senate voted 50-50.
The split was close, but it was more or less along predictable lines. And. the public was mostly against the impeachment. And, jokes aside, Clinton's time in office is generally looked upon favorably.


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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Sparky Prime »

Dominic wrote:But, sometimes the taking is the earning. Battle trophies are messier to get than say....sports or spelling bee trophies.
Battle trophies the other guy is usually too beat up or even dead to object. This does not matter to the Matrix though. It still belongs to Optimus.
Historic and religious significance can have similar effects, rational or not. And, Shrapnel's reaction when he sees the Matrix proves that the object itself has some recognized value, even if it is not saving the universe.
Of coarse the Matrix has a recognized value, but it still in no way is of any use to the Decepticons as long as it belongs to Optimus.
But, lying was a politically expedient way to get a shot at leadership. Starscream just has no margin for error.
Getting there fast is no excuse for doing it right. Ultimately this plot will fail, regardless of error.
Keep in mind, the scale.
That's another thing, we are talking about leadership of an entire army here and you're comparing it to a small subdivision.
There is a difference between having public interest in a story, and swaying opinion.
Doesn't mean any given news report is with out bias.
The split was close, but it was more or less along predictable lines. And. the public was mostly against the impeachment. And, jokes aside, Clinton's time in office is generally looked upon favorably.
As I recall, the public was very much in favor of the impeachment. Granted, aside from his major screw up(s) he did a good job in office but did something bad and deserved the impeachment. And still, he came very close to being kicked out of office.
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