The continuity lesson of Beast Wars

[SynjoDeonecros]

Yes, we do know that the Maximal Elders were trying to keep as much info about the war as possible locked up, but they can't shut up ALL of the veterans, and the Predacons clearly have no such ban.[/quote

Why *can't* they? There's a metric assload of Vietnam survivors, but we have no way of knowing exactly how many G1ers are even still alive today. Hell, by the later run of the G1 comics, half the guys we knew in '84 were dead--and double that if we're counting G2. If you can count the number of G1 Autobots and Decepticons who are still on Cybertron on two hands, then I don't see why they couldn't be forced into silence.

And you're still not acknowledging the possibility that anyone who *wouldn't* keep quiet about the true nature of the war was forcibly silenced. The Maximal Elders are played out to be some pretty shady fellows, so this wouldn't surprise me at all.

As far as I can see, Beast Wars didn't follow the G2 part of the G1 continuity, except for that apocryphal connection between the Swarm and the Vok, so we can discount the number of bodies in that series. Also, the supplemental material seems to indicate that there WERE a metric assload of G1 survivors, so even with the shadiness of the Maximal Elders, there's no way they could keep them all silent, even by force. After all, look at how Watergate was covered up; those involved were all in the government, and they STILL couldn't keep them all from spilling the beans, even under threat of pain and death. How are we supposed to expect the Maximal Elders to keep all of the G1 veterans hushed up?

Plus, that doesn't even count the Decepticon survivors, and - as stated before - the Predacons have NO SUCH STIPULATION against researching the past, so even if we accept that the Maximals left the Predacons to their own devices as long as they don't uprise again, do you really think that, with the obvious reason for the Maximal Elders' paranoia about keeping all info about the Great War under lock and key (ie. inspiring the Predacons to rise up once more and cause ANOTHER Great War), one of the stipulations they'd force the Predacons to follow in the Pax Cybertronia would be to NOT investigate the past?

I'm sorry, but there's just too many holes in the logic of this for me to accept. It was obvious why the writers tried to do what they did (to cover their ass in case of discontinuity), but they did a HORRIBLE job at it. Yes, I'll admit, the G1 revelations were awesome, but now that this stuff has been pointed out, I just can't help but ask "Why are they getting it so wrong? Why are they acting like it's all a big mystery? They should know this, by now!"

[BWprowl]

Again, again, again, it's not like they honestly thought all the stuff they were spouting about the Great War was the full, total, truth. Of course they're going to say some erroneous stuff, they're just rattling the information off offhand. And it's ancient history, a *lot* of the BW guys could probably care less about the details.

I mean, it's even been explicitly demonstrated that a) they can get some things wrong, and b) no one cares:

"It's Teletraan!"
"Whatever."

I can understand not believing that there aren't any historical accounts available (and if Blackarachnia and Dinobot are any indication, there are, so you aren't being asked to accept that) but is it really so incredibly hard to believe that most of these guys just didn't pay attention in History Class?

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot to point out: The Maximal Elders are Prowl, Ironhide, and Silverbolt. Three highly respected, high-ranking former Autobots. They probably wouldn't have much trouble at least convincing their fellow Autobots to keep quiet on some details of the Great War. Or strongarming Decepticons into keeping quiet either, now that I think about it. What G1 guys were confirmed still around, anyway? Ravage, Rodimus, Springer, Arcee, Swoop, who else?

[SynjoDeonecros]

Again, again, again, it's not like they honestly thought all the stuff they were spouting about the Great War was the full, total, truth. Of course they're going to say some erroneous stuff, they're just rattling the information off offhand. And it's ancient history, a *lot* of the BW guys could probably care less about the details.

I mean, it's even been explicitly demonstrated that a) they can get some things wrong, and b) no one cares:

"It's Teletraan!"
"Whatever."

I can understand not believing that there aren't any historical accounts available (and if Blackarachnia and Dinobot are any indication, there are, so you aren't being asked to accept that) but is it really so incredibly hard to believe that most of these guys just didn't pay attention in History Class?

Yes, yes it is. They are presenting the history as Arthurian lore, with little to NO evidence, witnesses, or credence to ANY details of the events given. They're being presented as urban myths; stuff that sounds good and might be true, but can't be verified, so no one can say for certain. But it CAN be verified; they've already established that it can. So why keep up the mysticism. Once again, I'm not expecting PERFECT clarity in the recount, just more along the lines of "from what I've researched" and less along the lines of "oooh, so THAT'S what the rumors were talking about! I thought it was a myth!".

[138 Scourge]

What G1 guys were confirmed still around, anyway? Ravage, Rodimus, Springer, Arcee, Swoop, who else?

I don't recall when most of those guys were confirmed show-wise, but if we're talking the comics and like that, then Snarl and Cyclonus are still kicking. Well, maybe Snarl. And Laserbeak, Buzzsaw, and the original Predacons, apparently, if you wanna look at the '06 'Con comic.

How far apart were G1 and Beast Wars, anyhow? I keep wanting to say 300 years, but that might just be something I thought twice and figured was true. Anyhow, expecting someone to know a whole lot about the G1 by that point seems like expecting your average chump to know a lot about the revolutionary war these days. They might now some of the stuff, some of the big iconic bits of it, but the minutia could well be lost on 'em. Especially in a race that, as O6 pointed out, doesn't seem to spend much time thinking about (or even vaguely recalling) their history.

(Just an aside, I think the "forgetting they had a god" thing was an intentional blank spot left by Primus. Because if he was trying to hide from Unicron, he wouldn't need a buncha robots running around talkin' 'bout him all the time. So the TF's would remember Primus when they saw him, but would just think about something else most of the time. Just a thought, anyway.)

[Dominic]

Plus, that doesn't even count the Decepticon survivors, and - as stated before - the Predacons have NO SUCH STIPULATION against researching the past, so even if we accept that the Maximals left the Predacons to their own devices as long as they don't uprise again, do you really think that, with the obvious reason for the Maximal Elders' paranoia about keeping all info about the Great War under lock and key (ie. inspiring the Predacons to rise up once more and cause ANOTHER Great War), one of the stipulations they'd force the Predacons to follow in the Pax Cybertronia would be to NOT investigate the past?

Of course, that assumes the Predacons were, as a rule, interested in history. Information being available does not mean that anybody uses it.

Sealing records on the Great War might have been more similar to agreements not to talk about certain things in certain company that we have now, more than any deep rooted fear of history stirring up current trouble.

[SynjoDeonecros]

Plus, that doesn't even count the Decepticon survivors, and - as stated before - the Predacons have NO SUCH STIPULATION against researching the past, so even if we accept that the Maximals left the Predacons to their own devices as long as they don't uprise again, do you really think that, with the obvious reason for the Maximal Elders' paranoia about keeping all info about the Great War under lock and key (ie. inspiring the Predacons to rise up once more and cause ANOTHER Great War), one of the stipulations they'd force the Predacons to follow in the Pax Cybertronia would be to NOT investigate the past?

Of course, that assumes the Predacons were, as a rule, interested in history. Information being available does not mean that anybody uses it.

Sealing records on the Great War might have been more similar to agreements not to talk about certain things in certain company that we have now, more than any deep rooted fear of history stirring up current trouble.

I don't see why the Predacons WOULDN'T be interested in history; they're still wanting to rise up rebel against their Maximal oppressors, and what better way of doing so than to study the past, learn what strategies worked and didn't work in the war that brought this about, and implement it in a covert matter? Megatron had an interest in history, as shown by his theft of the Golden Disk and the plan he had gleaned from it; Dinobot had an interest in history, shown by his knowledge of Starscream; Blackarachnia had an interest in history, as shown by her similar knowledge of Starscream AND her knowledge of the Ark. The rest of the crew didn't seem that interested in history, but then again, they were dumber than rocks. Unless the vast majority of Predacons are two RAM sticks short of a full terabyte - which I doubt - I would think that this interest in history WAS the norm for the Predacons.

And yes, I can understand that that's the reason the MAXIMALS would seal up the records of the Great War, but why didn't they have a mandate in the Pax Cybertronia forcing the PREDACONS to seal up those records? If you're afraid of having records of past conflicts be read by the enemy and having them uprise against you as a result, it makes little sense to ALLOW them access to those records, especially when you've sealed those records from your ALLIES. It's too inconsistent, for my tastes, and perfectly illustrates my frustration over this: they're trying to keep the true past of this series a mystery for dramatic convenience, but they're failing miserably, because they keep showing us that it DOESN'T have to remain a mystery, that there ARE sources of information that can clarify things for the characters. It just doesn't work, when you think about it.

[Dominic]

don't see why the Predacons WOULDN'T be interested in history; they're still wanting to rise up rebel against their Maximal oppressors, and what better way of doing so than to study the past, learn what strategies worked and didn't work in the war that brought this about, and implement it in a covert matter? Megatron had an interest in history, as shown

If we assume TFs think and act like humans, aside from specific areas described in official sources, then it makes sense for the Predacons to not actually be interested in history.

There is a big difference between carrying a historic grudge and understanding said history. (Yes, "a historic" grudge. Using "an" is just idiotic.) A fair amount of ignorance, (both by choice and by virtue of being on the wrong side of a concluded war), would not be unreasonable for most Predacons.


In theory, restricing records only makes more people want them. That should be a bigger problem in this case.


Mind you, I agree with the general theme here, that "Beast Wars" is not the master-work that many say it is. But, the premise that many of the TFs would be ignorant makes enough sense that I do not think about it too much.

Dom
-wonders what the TF analogue to "Black Helicopter" is.

[SynjoDeonecros]

don't see why the Predacons WOULDN'T be interested in history; they're still wanting to rise up rebel against their Maximal oppressors, and what better way of doing so than to study the past, learn what strategies worked and didn't work in the war that brought this about, and implement it in a covert matter? Megatron had an interest in history, as shown

If we assume TFs think and act like humans, aside from specific areas described in official sources, then it makes sense for the Predacons to not actually be interested in history.

There is a big difference between carrying a historic grudge and understanding said history. (Yes, "a historic" grudge. Using "an" is just idiotic.) A fair amount of ignorance, (both by choice and by virtue of being on the wrong side of a concluded war), would not be unreasonable for most Predacons.


In theory, restricing records only makes more people want them. That should be a bigger problem in this case.


Mind you, I agree with the general theme here, that "Beast Wars" is not the master-work that many say it is. But, the premise that many of the TFs would be ignorant makes enough sense that I do not think about it too much.

Dom
-wonders what the TF analogue to "Black Helicopter" is.

I dunno. It still seems way too inconsistent and self-sabotaging of them to do that for me to sustain my suspension of disbelief with the whole "Transformers are ignorant of their past" thing when there's clearly plenty of ways for them to get themselves educated.

[Onslaught Six]

Except TFs have always been like this, and they're too busy trying to colonize other worlds or take care of intradimensional timetravelling crazy guys named Gigatron to worry about what Soundwave did on a Thursday in 1985.

Also, there's no real indication that the Predacons even want to stir up trouble again--at least not on Megatron's kind of scale. Megs is a crazy heretic and Tripredacus wants to shut him up--true, it's so they can do their *own* uprising, but theirs is much more subtle and probably doesn't require any information about G1 anyway.

Besides, it was always my impression that the Predacons had split off from the Maximals--they are only 'spiritually' the descendents of the Decepticons, and not literally, as the Maximals are the Autobots.

[138 Scourge]

Besides, it was always my impression that the Predacons had split off from the Maximals--they are only 'spiritually' the descendents of the Decepticons, and not literally, as the Maximals are the Autobots.

Mmaybe. But some of the things in BW, like Blackarachnia realizing she wouldn't have existed in Meg's crazy new timeline, kinda indicate otherwise. Sorta. Then again, I tend to see 'em more as factions than seperate races, anyhow. I know the G1 cartoon contradicts it, but dang. Never cared for that origin, anyhow, so I don't feel too bad ignoring it.