The Covenant of Primus

[Dominic]

I've been asked to move this thread out of G1 since the content of the book appears to be focused on the Aligned continuity.

Since this product isn't only TF Prime but also Exodus and the WFC games, and we haven't fully dealt with the ramifications of how Aligned content works outside of a toyline yet, I'm going to move this to the general forum for now.

We counted the novels and the games under "Prime". If anything, I would say that we should either merge the "Generations" and "Prime" forums.

But, we have consistently listed the games and novels under "Transformers: Prime", so this really should not be an issue.

Vault is so deep that after 10 months I still haven't gotten through it all.

It took me a few weeks to get through it. I had to force myself to stay on course with it, rather than skipping around. And, do not even get me started on the extras. I had to tell myself, more than once, "stop playing with this, you have reading to do".

Hidalgo also did a Joe sourcebook (focusing entirely on the back-story of the pre-movie/IDW comics and cartoon). It was excellent. I want to see more from him.

That's why Lucasfilm has levels of canon, because there is stuff in Star Wars like the Funpub stuff that really cannot be taken seriously, so it's a low-grade canon that can be easily overridden by anything from a higher level - movies, tv, novels, comics, books, other products. Hasbro is playing fast and loose with their interpretation of "everything's canon" these days and for those who care, it's maddening. I don't care, so I just write-off the Funpub stuff as essentially fanfic, I take it no more seriously than a bio on the back of a Happy Meal package - which I suppose is also canon.

This is part of why I tend to go with "official", rather than canon.

Hasbro has officially accepted the idea of a multiverse, going back as far as the original recolour heavy "Universe" line a decade ago. In theory, everything counts somewhere.

Outside of "Infinities", "Star Wars" only ever had one wholly legitimate setting. The confusion stems from the fact that Lucasfilm (which has the right to make the call) has waffled on how much the comics, novels and games count, sometimes over-writing them and other times including references to them in the movies.

Like it or not, Fun Publications is official. Calling it fanfic is simply inaccurate. (I am not defending the quality of their product. But, I will defend its legitimacy.)


-Defender of Official Content Dom...

[BWprowl]

I can't bring anything to the table regarding this Covenant thing, since I honesly haven't looked into it and it doesn't sound like something I would want for the price, but the tangential discussion has me wondering: Should I check out The Vault? I love the inside-and-outside history lessons I get to read in stuff like the TF UK Classics volumes, and the stuff cotained in there sounds like it might be fun to look into.

[Dominic]

No question. Yes. There is so much in that book. Imagine if the history pages in the UK compilations had bonus items (like an old product catalogue or a script page).

Seriously, "Transformers: Vault" is not perfect. But, it is damned good.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=906&hilit=Vault+discussion


Delight-sharing Dom.....

[JediTricks]

We counted the novels and the games under "Prime". If anything, I would say that we should either merge the "Generations" and "Prime" forums.

It'll be a cold day in hell before that happens, my friend. What's best for this site isn't making it inaccessible to newcomers, and merging the 2 lines least likely to have crossover appeal is not within that focus.

But, we have consistently listed the games and novels under "Transformers: Prime", so this really should not be an issue.

Prime is weeks away from being over as a content delivery system, aside from the comic perhaps, while the book won't even come out until the end of the year. And obviously some folks feel it has crossover appeal to other continuities, so "general" is the best place, with "Other TF lines" being second best but stupid for something like this.

It took me a few weeks to get through it. I had to force myself to stay on course with it, rather than skipping around. And, do not even get me started on the extras. I had to tell myself, more than once, "stop playing with this, you have reading to do".

I've got a lot of other stuff going as well, I still haven't finished Making of Empire Strikes Back yet.

Hidalgo also did a Joe sourcebook (focusing entirely on the back-story of the pre-movie/IDW comics and cartoon). It was excellent. I want to see more from him.

He's a funny little guy, I met him briefly at Star Wars Celebration 4, I think. But he's got the right mindset for this sort of thing.

This is part of why I tend to go with "official", rather than canon.

Hasbro has officially accepted the idea of a multiverse, going back as far as the original recolour heavy "Universe" line a decade ago. In theory, everything counts somewhere.

Outside of "Infinities", "Star Wars" only ever had one wholly legitimate setting. The confusion stems from the fact that Lucasfilm (which has the right to make the call) has waffled on how much the comics, novels and games count, sometimes over-writing them and other times including references to them in the movies.

Like it or not, Fun Publications is official. Calling it fanfic is simply inaccurate. (I am not defending the quality of their product. But, I will defend its legitimacy.)

I couldn't agree less, Lucasfilm says it's ok to adopt something as canon if you like it but that there are superseding items out there. Hasbro says conflicting information, nonsense, and throw-away packaging is legitimately "official", that's kooky.

I can't bring anything to the table regarding this Covenant thing, since I honesly haven't looked into it and it doesn't sound like something I would want for the price, but the tangential discussion has me wondering: Should I check out The Vault? I love the inside-and-outside history lessons I get to read in stuff like the TF UK Classics volumes, and the stuff cotained in there sounds like it might be fun to look into.

It depends on where you are as a fan, but generally I'd say it's worth it. Shit, it's $25.05 now on Amazon which means free shipping: http://www.amazon.com/Transformers-Vaul ... 810998688/
But there's only 4 left right now!

[Sparky Prime]

Exactly. In real terms, the "Covenant of Primus" relates to TF Prime/Aligned. The preview that I saw includes new "Aligned" style art for several of the original 13 Primes. And, the whole point is to provide a new/unified origin for the TFs.

I wouldn't say the art of the 13 matches with the art style of the "Aligned" continuity, given they do look a bit different from how they were shown in the Prime cartoon. And the art style later on in the book is actually based on the art style of the WFC/FOC video games, which despite being part of the Aligned continuity doesn't always match up with other elements of the Aligned continuity. Not to mention the creators of those games seemed to be more influenced by G1 itself.

Which G1 is not... and also it is.

It was also brought up in Dreamwave's version of G1. And very recently in IDW's Re-Generation 1.

Where do you qualify The Fallen from ROTF? Where do you qualify Sideways from the UT? It's where ever the product discussed comes from, I think.

What do you mean where do I qualify The Fallen? He is the same concept between continuities as well. One of the original Primes who betrayed the others and was cast out. And Hasbro once claimed the 13 are "multiversal singularities", beings that have only one identity that is shared across the entire multiverse. Not exactly sure how that works, but it's an 'official' thing nevertheless. That would seem to suggest the Covenant is also one of these singularities given Alpha Trion is the one who writes and deciphers it. And I don't qualify Sideways because there is no actual proof in canon other than a joke by the writers own admittance.

[Dominic]

UT Sideways and "Robot Masters" Sideways are the same guy. (This is also notable for being one of the first times that Japanese content accounted for a multiverse.) The Sorenson Bay-Ways thing.....lets not go down that road again. Come to think of it, Sorenson made contrary statements about "Aligned" (the G2 follow-up), so....ugh....


In any case, multiversal singularities:
Hasbro's definition is kind of vague.

Does it mean "one instance of a thing across multiple/all timelines"? And, would that mean that defeat in one timeline only means defeat in one? In this case, Unicron being soundly thrashed in at least two timelines (US comic and "Reaching the Omega Point" at BC00) means that he cannot manifest in those timelines again. Similarly, Vector Prime can still manifest (as implied by the TFU 2008 character bio) despite having "died" in "Cybertron". (Of course, this does not account for the implication of there being two Safeguards.)

Alternatively, does it mean "a guaranteed, but distinct from others, instance of a thing"? In other words, does being a multiversal singularity simply obligate multiple timelines to "provide" for a given thing's existence? In other words, does every timeline have a Vector Prime or a Fallen? (The Fallen has manifested and died twice, in Dreamwave and the movies.) Cybertron and Earth would also qualify as singularities by this standard, as just about every timeline seems to have one. (Some sources list Gobotron as a Cybertron/Primus manifestation.)


Dimensionally Duplicating Dom....

[Sparky Prime]

UT Sideways and "Robot Masters" Sideways are the same guy.

Robot Masters was a storyline that pulled characters from different timelines and universes to begin with.

In any case, multiversal singularities:
Hasbro's definition is kind of vague.

Not really. They came up with a fairly comprehensive explanation in one of their QandA sessions...

The complex nature of the multiverse demands much from singular creatures like the Fallen, Primus, Unicron, the 13, etc. These beings are of a fundamentally different nature from regular individuals, who are repeated endlessly throughout the infinite variation of creation. They must be designed or evolved to deal with certain situations that would drive lesser beings mad.

First of all, time flows differently from dimension to dimension. By necessity, this makes it possible for creatures like the Fallen to appear to exist in two places at the same time. Second, whole new universes are spawned every moment by the resolution of quantum uncertainty. Most of these universes are dead ends that exist for only a few seconds or minutes at most, and encompass only a few critical moments. Therefore, at certain critical junctures, the Fallen becomes a quantum event, experiencing two or more possible outcomes at once, until one of those outcomes proves to be a dead end and collapses. The Fallen then reverts back to the "real" universe. Every story has dozens or hundreds of endings we never see. But the Fallen sees them.

One of the side effects of the Fallen's quantum nature is that his appearance changes slightly from dimension to dimension, based on the expectations of others, and the unique history he has (or has not) established in a particular dimension. He is also bound by the "rules" (gravity, magnetism, etc.) of any dimension in which appears – many of which rules he may have actually helped shape when the multiverse was young. So if time flows backwards in a certain dimension, he is bound to live and experience – forgetting as he goes along – everything backwards.

Smart and savvy dimensional travelers spend time in reverse timescale dimensions, slow-time dimensions, or dimensions in which time does not move at all. This ensures that even if they are "killed," they continue to exist. As you can see, the idea of sequential experience as you and I understand it is pretty meaningless to guys like the Fallen. He does experience all these things, but his mind operates on a higher order so all of this stuff totally makes sense to him.

[BWprowl]

Not really. They came up with a fairly comprehensive explanation in one of their QandA sessions...

The complex nature of the multiverse demands much from singular creatures like the Fallen, Primus, Unicron, the 13, etc. These beings are of a fundamentally different nature from regular individuals, who are repeated endlessly throughout the infinite variation of creation. They must be designed or evolved to deal with certain situations that would drive lesser beings mad.

First of all, time flows differently from dimension to dimension. By necessity, this makes it possible for creatures like the Fallen to appear to exist in two places at the same time. Second, whole new universes are spawned every moment by the resolution of quantum uncertainty. Most of these universes are dead ends that exist for only a few seconds or minutes at most, and encompass only a few critical moments. Therefore, at certain critical junctures, the Fallen becomes a quantum event, experiencing two or more possible outcomes at once, until one of those outcomes proves to be a dead end and collapses. The Fallen then reverts back to the "real" universe. Every story has dozens or hundreds of endings we never see. But the Fallen sees them.

One of the side effects of the Fallen's quantum nature is that his appearance changes slightly from dimension to dimension, based on the expectations of others, and the unique history he has (or has not) established in a particular dimension. He is also bound by the "rules" (gravity, magnetism, etc.) of any dimension in which appears – many of which rules he may have actually helped shape when the multiverse was young. So if time flows backwards in a certain dimension, he is bound to live and experience – forgetting as he goes along – everything backwards.

Smart and savvy dimensional travelers spend time in reverse timescale dimensions, slow-time dimensions, or dimensions in which time does not move at all. This ensures that even if they are "killed," they continue to exist. As you can see, the idea of sequential experience as you and I understand it is pretty meaningless to guys like the Fallen. He does experience all these things, but his mind operates on a higher order so all of this stuff totally makes sense to him.

You know, when you put it all like that, it becomes apparent that The Fallen could actually end up as a pretty interesting character if he could just be competently written in a story that doesn't suck for once.

[JediTricks]

I wouldn't say the art of the 13 matches with the art style of the "Aligned" continuity, given they do look a bit different from how they were shown in the Prime cartoon. And the art style later on in the book is actually based on the art style of the WFC/FOC video games, which despite being part of the Aligned continuity doesn't always match up with other elements of the Aligned continuity. Not to mention the creators of those games seemed to be more influenced by G1 itself.

I would say it, I'd say it syncs up with concept art for WFC/FOC combined with the look of TFP. Anyway, this should really be more about the content of the text, not the design of the images, that's secondary IMO.

Where do you qualify The Fallen from ROTF? Where do you qualify Sideways from the UT? It's where ever the product discussed comes from, I think.

What do you mean where do I qualify The Fallen? He is the same concept between continuities as well. One of the original Primes who betrayed the others and was cast out. And Hasbro once claimed the 13 are "multiversal singularities", beings that have only one identity that is shared across the entire multiverse. Not exactly sure how that works, but it's an 'official' thing nevertheless. That would seem to suggest the Covenant is also one of these singularities given Alpha Trion is the one who writes and deciphers it. And I don't qualify Sideways because there is no actual proof in canon other than a joke by the writers own admittance.

The toys, when you talk about the physical product and how it relates to continuity, do you talk about The Fallen that came out during ROTF as a figure from the DW line or from the G1 line? Or do you catalog it mentally with the movie, where that toy came from? When someone shows you the toy and asks you to describe it, do you start outside the toy's continuity? Same thing with Sideways, who is in RID and UT and Robot Masters, even if you don't buy the movie connection; and the UT isn't even consistent in the character, Armada's version is wholly different from Cybertron's, except for both versions serving Unicron.

Does it mean "one instance of a thing across multiple/all timelines"? And, would that mean that defeat in one timeline only means defeat in one? In this case, Unicron being soundly thrashed in at least two timelines (US comic and "Reaching the Omega Point" at BC00) means that he cannot manifest in those timelines again. Similarly, Vector Prime can still manifest (as implied by the TFU 2008 character bio) despite having "died" in "Cybertron". (Of course, this does not account for the implication of there being two Safeguards.)

Apparently it doesn't even mean defeat in one timeline, as he was defeated twice in the UT timeline. And now you know why I don't take TF continuity too damned seriously.

Anyway, yes, they appear across multiple timelines at any and all points of their... choosing? Fate? Murphy's law? I dunno, it's stupid and vague.

Alternatively, does it mean "a guaranteed, but distinct from others, instance of a thing"? In other words, does being a multiversal singularity simply obligate multiple timelines to "provide" for a given thing's existence? In other words, does every timeline have a Vector Prime or a Fallen? (The Fallen has manifested and died twice, in Dreamwave and the movies.) Cybertron and Earth would also qualify as singularities by this standard, as just about every timeline seems to have one. (Some sources list Gobotron as a Cybertron/Primus manifestation.)

No no, that would make Optimus Prime a multiverse singularity, you're misunderstanding the concept of a "singularity", in this case they mean it's the same one dude across all of the multiverse.

You know, when you put it all like that, it becomes apparent that The Fallen could actually end up as a pretty interesting character if he could just be competently written in a story that doesn't suck for once.

"Consider the source" ... It came from DW, it is tainted.

It was a nice try by Hasbro, but they really missed the boat, you cannot have energies forced to obey the laws of physics in one universe only to ALSO disobey them in another one. Perhaps it's time we took the advice of just accepting that "a wizard did it" is the answer.

[Sparky Prime]

I would say it, I'd say it syncs up with concept art for WFC/FOC combined with the look of TFP. Anyway, this should really be more about the content of the text, not the design of the images, that's secondary IMO.

I'm really not seeing any look from Prime in the images from the book previews personally. I mean, they have noses for one thing. But yeah, the text is going to be more important than the images.

The toys, when you talk about the physical product and how it relates to continuity, do you talk about The Fallen that came out during ROTF as a figure from the DW line or from the G1 line? Or do you catalog it mentally with the movie, where that toy came from? When someone shows you the toy and asks you to describe it, do you start outside the toy's continuity? Same thing with Sideways, who is in RID and UT and Robot Masters, even if you don't buy the movie connection; and the UT isn't even consistent in the character, Armada's version is wholly different from Cybertron's, except for both versions serving Unicron.

Neither. Of course I'd have to catalog a toy by the toyline it was released in, but just because a toy was released in a particular toyline, that doesn't necessarily mean that toy actually appeared in any media of that line, or has any established continuity in the first place. A lot of the toylines have repaints or characters that are only in the toyline. Or you have the toy's bio conflicting with the cartoons or some such. Or maybe the toy was released in another toyline than originally intended, like how Megabolt was released in the RID toyline instead of the Beast Machines toyline. I mean, there is a lot of different circumstances here that those options you're presenting does not take into account. How I'd qualify those characters would depend on the given circumstances.