TF Views

Onslaught Six wrote:...I don't understand what your argument is.

I've only said it said several times in this thread... The Matrix is useless unless it is in the hands of the one it actually chose to carry it. Lying that it chose you isn't going to hold together for long.

We don't know that. It's been referrenced so little in AHM that for all we know it might be like G2 where Starscream will become uber powerful if he actually installs it in himself, which it seems that none of the Decepticons have done so far. At the very least, it's useful to Starscream as something he can use to rally the troops behind him. Hell, it doesn't even HAVE to do anything because it's a symbol, it represents having taken from an enemy that which they most treasure and therefore that qualifies him as leader of the Decepticons in Megatron's absence. Sometimes, a lot of times, symbols are a lot more useful than weapons and right now, THAT'S what Starscream really needs.

Sparky Prime wrote:

Onslaught Six wrote:...I don't understand what your argument is.

I've only said it said several times in this thread... The Matrix is useless unless it is in the hands of the one it actually chose to carry it. Lying that it chose you isn't going to hold together for long.

Did you read the rest of my post?

Where I explained that was the entire point?

Of course it's not going to hold together for very long. But it's holding together now. Probably, by the next time we come back to this plot point, Razorclaw (or someone else) will have figured out what's going on and will challenge Starscream's supposed authority.

Onslaught Six wrote:Did you read the rest of my post?

Where I explained that was the entire point?

You mean where you basically say 'who cares it makes for an interesting story'? Yeah, no, that completely ignores why the conversation came up in the first place.

transtrekkie wrote:We don't know that. It's been referrenced so little in AHM that for all we know it might be like G2 where Starscream will become uber powerful if he actually installs it in himself, which it seems that none of the Decepticons have done so far.

I'd disagree with that. Although we never actually saw it, I figure Megatron must have been hiding the Matrix within himself before he had the Constructicons build that building that we eventually saw him enter with the Matrix. Before that, inside himself would have been the only place he could have kept the Matrix safe and hidden from the rest of the Decepticons. And it seems likely that the only way it could have been smuggled on-board Astrotrain with out any other Decepticons noticing is if a similar method was used.

Hell, it doesn't even HAVE to do anything because it's a symbol, it represents having taken from an enemy that which they most treasure and therefore that qualifies him as leader of the Decepticons in Megatron's absence. Sometimes, a lot of times, symbols are a lot more useful than weapons and right now, THAT'S what Starscream really needs.

Again, the symbolism of the Matrix is that it chooses the leader. The Decepticons only think it chose Starscream because he lied to them about it. Starscream is only delaying the inevitable with this lie because eventually, the Decepticons will start to question this claim.

Sparky Prime wrote:Again, the symbolism of the Matrix is that it chooses the leader. The Decepticons only think it chose Starscream because he lied to them about it. Starscream is only delaying the inevitable with this lie because eventually, the Decepticons will start to question this claim.

And what's *wrong* with this? Why is this a bad thing? I don't understand.

Onslaught Six wrote:And what's *wrong* with this? Why is this a bad thing? I don't understand.

Um... What does this have to do with the part of my post you quoted? I'm not saying anything is wrong with it. The disagreement is with the interpretation of how the Matrix is being represented in this story.

Again, the symbolism of the Matrix is that it chooses the leader. The Decepticons only think it chose Starscream because he lied to them about it. Starscream is only delaying the inevitable with this lie because eventually, the Decepticons will start to question this claim.

Uh, that is not symbolism, that is use as a McGuffin.

Basically, Star-, erm, Sparky, you are saying the Matrix is useless if it does not have immediate use as a big over-powered McGuffin that can kill gods and make leader-bots out of grunts.

Most of us, and for that matter the writers at IDW, are saying that the Matrix has political value that one can exploit.

Starscream's inability to keep things together is less a quesion of the Matrix being useless than of Starscream being a poor leader. But, having the Matrix at all gave him the chance to lead. (And, his lack of ability will probably screw that chance up.)

Dom
-wonders why readers think like the characters.

Dominic wrote:Basically, Star-, erm, Sparky, you are saying the Matrix is useless if it does not have immediate use as a big over-powered McGuffin that can kill gods and make leader-bots out of grunts.

Once again, you're failing to see what my point actually is. Having access to the power is besides the point. After all, a Prime doesn't really need immediate access the power of the Matrix to be a Prime or leader as we've seen with Optimus. The point is that the Matrix actually chose him. And the Decepticons only think it chose Starscream. This isn't an effective way to become leader given it's based on a lie, one that will eventually tear Starscream down. So with out the Matrix actually choosing him, the Matrix itself is useless to him beyond lying about it.

Most of us, and for that matter the writers at IDW, are saying that the Matrix has political value that one can exploit.

You know what would have been interesting...? It had been Furman's intention that the Matrix had been taken with Nova Prime before he was forced to rush the story and rework it that Optimus did indeed have the Matrix. But before that reworking, Sentinel and Optimus both would have had to have been chosen Prime by some other means, indicating the Matrix wasn't necessary for selecting Prime's.

But this exploit... It isn't real political value. It breaks down once the lies are dissolved.

Starscream's inability to keep things together is less a quesion of the Matrix being useless than of Starscream being a poor leader. But, having the Matrix at all gave him the chance to lead. (And, his lack of ability will probably screw that chance up.)

The Matrix didn't give him that chance, the lie gave him that chance as necessitated by the Matrix. And it's been my point that Starscream is a poor leader on top of everything else.

I like it much better as a political ploy than a macguffin. Besides, we're assuming that it operates like it did in the G1 cartoon where it couldn't be opened by a Decepticon. Heck, even in that, Scourge was able to use it, he just couldn't access the bajillions of years of Autobot Leader experience. In G2, starscream was almost turned good after installing the Matrix and so far nothing in AHM suggests that he couldn't theoretically do the same. All he said was the Megs had studied it, there's no clarification of what that study entailed.

The Matrix didn't give him that chance, the lie gave him that chance as necessitated by the Matrix. And it's been my point that Starscream is a poor leader on top of everything else.

Well, more correctly, the Matrix gave Starscream the chance to lie.

Shrapnel's reaction indicates that the Matrix is a fantastic trophy, even if one is not lying.

Starscream's ineptitude does not make the Matrix worthless. It just means that Starscream is inept.

He could use the lie to get into office, and then do things that would justify keepin him there regardless of if the lie was revealed. (Really, if things are going well, and your basic needs are met, do you care how the leader got the job? No, really. Do not lie. Yup. Thought so.) He could use the Matrix to lure the Autobots into a trap of somekind.

Using the Matrix, like any tool, requires understanding.


I agree that it might have been interesting had Furman been writing a completely different story. But, Furman was not writing much in the way of "different".

Dom
-has a question for the comics thread.....