TF Views

Dominic wrote:And, making "Batman" a franchise in context would fundamentally change how the character operates.

How does it change how he operates? Batman is already a team effort and has been for years. The team follows how he operates though, as a reclusive vigilante hiding in the shadows. I don't see why that would change just because there will be more Batmen protecting other cities.

Sparky Prime wrote:

Dominic wrote:And, making "Batman" a franchise in context would fundamentally change how the character operates.

How does it change how he operates? Batman is already a team effort and has been for years. The team follows how he operates though, as a reclusive vigilante hiding in the shadows. I don't see why that would change just because there will be more Batmen protecting other cities.

Because Batman is now very publicly being funded by Bruce Wayne, and he now has a very public face in the form of Waynecorp and the new logo. To draw an analogy, he will go from a little corner mom and pop operation that only a few people know about to a large scale, public franchise with all the scrutiny and attention that such a franchise attracts. Batman's method of operation cannot fail to be impacted by all the public attention. His methods work because he operates in secret and escapes scrutiny. Now that's become considerably harder.

The only way Batman is even able to operate in Gotham is because Gordon looks the other way and sanctions what he does, unofficially. By all rights, Batman is every bit as outside the law as the criminals he hunts down. But because he's useful and effective, Gordon has let him run free. All it would take to shut the whole operation down is an actual effort by the police or possibly the FBI. All it would take is for someone in law enforcement to finally decide to stop looking the other way. While Batman kept a low profile, looking the other way was fairly easy. Now that there's a public and branded face that's linked to the unseen vigilante, it's going to be a lot harder for people to pretend they aren't aware of all that he's done.

In a lot of ways, Batman's always been the elephant in the room. Law enforcement in Gotham know he's there and what he's doing, but they all tacitly agree not to talk about it. That's going to be a lot harder now.

It really all started with the Justice League, and that may actually be the one thing that makes Batman Inc. more feasible for me. I may be contradicting my earlier arguments here, though in truth it's DC that's published the contradictions. Once Batman took his place beside all the other costumed superheros in the League, his public profile was already raised. The character was already taken out of his comfort zone and put somewhere that he really doesn't fit. He should be avoiding all public exposure, not going out of his way to attract it. But maybe, having gotten away with it with the league, he figures he'll go one step further and set up his own league. He may be getting a little overconfident here, and a grand fall might be at the end of this road.

Eheheh. I like that this argument is basically boiling down whether or not this is a good decision for Batman as a character; not whether or not it's a good direction for the Batman book to take.

andersonh1 wrote:Because Batman is now very publicly being funded by Bruce Wayne, and he now has a very public face in the form of Waynecorp and the new logo. To draw an analogy, he will go from a little corner mom and pop operation that only a few people know about to a large scale, public franchise with all the scrutiny and attention that such a franchise attracts. Batman's method of operation cannot fail to be impacted by all the public attention. His methods work because he operates in secret and escapes scrutiny. Now that's become considerably harder.

You make it sound like Batman is setting up a corporate office the general public will be able to take a tour of to see everything Batman does. I honestly don't see why you think Batman will loose the secrecy just because he's making a franchise of his war on crime. It's the support behind Batman Inc that Bruce is publicizing, making people aware Batman is go beyond Gotham now, not the inner workings behind Batman's operation.

The only way Batman is even able to operate in Gotham is because Gordon looks the other way and sanctions what he does, unofficially. By all rights, Batman is every bit as outside the law as the criminals he hunts down. But because he's useful and effective, Gordon has let him run free. All it would take to shut the whole operation down is an actual effort by the police or possibly the FBI. All it would take is for someone in law enforcement to finally decide to stop looking the other way. While Batman kept a low profile, looking the other way was fairly easy. Now that there's a public and branded face that's linked to the unseen vigilante, it's going to be a lot harder for people to pretend they aren't aware of all that he's done.

And that's why the Bat-signal is located on top of Gotham's police headquarters that they regularly use to call Batman? Even sometimes hand Batman confidential police reports to aid him in his own investigation of crimes? Allowing Batman to go over crime scenes and take evidence? That's hardly simply looking the other way just for the sake of Batman being able to operate in Gotham. Gordon is very much a part of Batman's inner circle, albeit somewhat separate at the same time for the sake of plausible-deniability. But it's clear to the entire city that the police support Batman if nothing else because of the friggen spotlight they've got on their roof.

What "direction"? Nobody expects anything DC does to stick in any meaninful way. The problem is that this new "direction" cannot go anywhere. None of the logical outcomes are really going to be allowed to happen. It would take very little to connect Wayne to Batman at this point. And, as Anderson pointed out, Batman only succeeded for as long as he did because Gordon looked the other way, and presumably ensured that the rest of the GCPD did as well.


Warrior's Three #1:
Post-"Siege", there has been a predictably big push by Marvel to get "Thor" related characters front and center. (This probably has something or another to do with the upcoming movie.) This miniseries focuses on a trio of secondary characters. I am unsure if their history with the big monster, (Fenrisian Wolf), is from an earlier run of the comic or is being back-written. Most likely, it will not matter. The art has a nice Simonsonian flair to it. This is not a bad comic, but nothing I am likely to be adding to my (sorely bloated) pull-list.
Grade: B/C


Thor and Ironman:
Abnett's and Lanning's names sold me on this. Given that most of Abnett's professional life at this point has been spent at Games Workshop, he is probably the best choice to write a story blending sci-fi with sword and sorcery. The setting appears to be not too far after the end of "The Siege". Relative to the first issue, "The Siege" was recently enough that Broxton, OK still looks like a war-zone, but far enough past that Ironman has had time to put on a more modern set of armour. Between Ironman and Thor, this comic is pretty much "Marvel's Movie Marquee". The first issue does not give any hints about how high (or low) Abnett and Lanning are pitching this. Abnett generally writes good enough filler than I am confident saying this is worth picking up, even if only as filler.
Grade: B/C


Batman and Robin #16:
And...Morrison's run on "Batman and Robin" ends. The series is slated to continue, but is unlikely to maintain the following it held despite missed deadlines and Frank Quitely's inability to handle a monthly title. Morrison is moving on to "Batman Inc." and Quitely stopped pretending to work on this title about 6 months ago. The last few pages would carry more weight in context, rather than a Morrison-style abstraction, if there was some chance they would actually stick for more than a few months after Morrison leaves the bat-books, (and that is being optimistic). Still, the basic premise of "Batman Inc." is solid enough that I will probably be coming back. But, upcoming comics cannot improve past comics. And, it is hard to praise nearly 2 years of missed deadlines and fill-in artists.
Grade: C/D




Dom
-no caffeine since Saturday...

Bruce Wayne basically came out and said he was under-writing Batman. Every Wayne Enterprises facility is effectively a Batman office. If somebody strikes at Wayne, they hit Batman. And, Wayne pretty much invited people to figure out that he is in fact Batman.

While the Gotham police may accept Batman, there is no guarantee that other cities would. The Gotham Police are supposed to be incredibly corrupt. They are simply not going to be as effective as a cleaner department. If a Bat-franchise were to open up shop near a cleaner, (or simply more organized), department, there would be politic al and investigative efforts to close down the local "Batman Inc." branch.

Sparky Prime wrote:You make it sound like Batman is setting up a corporate office the general public will be able to take a tour of to see everything Batman does. I honestly don't see why you think Batman will loose the secrecy just because he's making a franchise of his war on crime. It's the support behind Batman Inc that Bruce is publicizing, making people aware Batman is go beyond Gotham now, not the inner workings behind Batman's operation.

What is one way that we fight terrorists, or attempt to punish rogue states? By hitting their funding. Batman's enemies have just been given a very effective weapon to fight him, because they now know the source of his funding. And also, rather than Batman being a complete mystery, a portion of how he does what he does is now public knowledge. That could well be the clue that allows someone to find out everything else. What if someone starts snooping around Wayne Manor now that they know Bruce funds Batman, and they discover the cave?

Think about it.

And that's why the Bat-signal is located on top of Gotham's police headquarters that they regularly use to call Batman? Even sometimes hand Batman confidential police reports to aid him in his own investigation of crimes? Allowing Batman to go over crime scenes and take evidence? That's hardly simply looking the other way just for the sake of Batman being able to operate in Gotham. Gordon is very much a part of Batman's inner circle, albeit somewhat separate at the same time for the sake of plausible-deniability. But it's clear to the entire city that the police support Batman if nothing else because of the friggen spotlight they've got on their roof.

As Dom points out, Gotham is a very corrupt and crime-ridden city. What works there might not work everywhere.

I may have heard wrong, but I believe that Morrison's gonna be on the Bat-books for about two more years at least. So it's not like this is all gonna be retconned tomorrow. And for when things do change back, I have no doubt that Morrison's got a plan in mind to make that work.

But man, Dom, your entire problem with this series is that it isn't gonna stick? I gotta say, big deal, nothing in superhero comics changes forever. It's like, was "Dark Avengers" a bad thing because there's no way Osborn would be running things forever?

138 Scourge wrote:I may have heard wrong, but I believe that Morrison's gonna be on the Bat-books for about two more years at least. So it's not like this is all gonna be retconned tomorrow. And for when things do change back, I have no doubt that Morrison's got a plan in mind to make that work.

I've read an interview with Morrison where he indicated that he had a two-year story arc planned for Batman Inc. The first year would be a series of two and three part storylines that set up the premise, and then the second year would be a big payoff for all the story threads set up in the first year.

Dominic wrote:Batman and Robin #16:
And...Morrison's run on "Batman and Robin" ends. The series is slated to continue, but is unlikely to maintain the following it held despite missed deadlines and Frank Quitely's inability to handle a monthly title. Morrison is moving on to "Batman Inc." and Quitely stopped pretending to work on this title about 6 months ago. The last few pages would carry more weight in context, rather than a Morrison-style abstraction, if there was some chance they would actually stick for more than a few months after Morrison leaves the bat-books, (and that is being optimistic). Still, the basic premise of "Batman Inc." is solid enough that I will probably be coming back. But, upcoming comics cannot improve past comics. And, it is hard to praise nearly 2 years of missed deadlines and fill-in artists.
Grade: C/D

How has this series been, overall? Is it worth reading the collected volumes?

Dominic wrote:Bruce Wayne basically came out and said he was under-writing Batman. Every Wayne Enterprises facility is effectively a Batman office. If somebody strikes at Wayne, they hit Batman. And, Wayne pretty much invited people to figure out that he is in fact Batman.

I don't think it's as simple as that. Sure Wayne's company becomes something of a target for publicly supporting Batman financially, but that doesn't make Wayne Enterprises synonymous with Batman. To look at the flip side, now that the public knows where Batman gets financial support from, there could be other investors interested in coming forward to help support Batman Inc. And again, I don't see that Wayne has invited anyone to figure out he is Batman by simply revealing his financial support. He's played his role as carefree billionaire playboy quite well over the years.

While the Gotham police may accept Batman, there is no guarantee that other cities would. The Gotham Police are supposed to be incredibly corrupt.

Yet, Jim Gordon has a reputation for being incorruptible. Sure other city police departments might not be as supportive of having a Batman, but with having all of Batman Inc to back them up, they might not need the help from the police as much as Batman did solo.

They are simply not going to be as effective as a cleaner department. If a Bat-franchise were to open up shop near a cleaner, (or simply more organized), department, there would be politic al and investigative efforts to close down the local "Batman Inc." branch.

I'm thinking each Batman will likely operate out of their own Batcave or what ever. It doesn't make sense for Batman Inc to open up shop the public have access to.

andersonh1 wrote:What is one way that we fight terrorists, or attempt to punish rogue states? By hitting their funding. Batman's enemies have just been given a very effective weapon to fight him, because they now know the source of his funding.

And as I said above, who's to say Wayne Enterprises will remain the sole investor to Batman Inc? It's possible with it being public knowledge that things could swing the other way as well.

And also, rather than Batman being a complete mystery, a portion of how he does what he does is now public knowledge. That could well be the clue that allows someone to find out everything else. What if someone starts snooping around Wayne Manor now that they know Bruce funds Batman, and they discover the cave?

That portion being where he gets his finances? I really wouldn't call that "how he does what he does". Anyone could guess Batman must have access to a lot of money with all of the gear he uses. So what if they know it comes from Wayne now? And even if someone were to go poking around Wayne Manor, Bruce has the entrances to the cave protected for a reason.