All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

The modern comics universe has had such a different take on G1, one that's significantly represented by the Generations toys, so they share a forum. A modern take on a Real Cybertronian Hero. Currently starring Generations toys, IDW "The Transformers" comics, MTMTE, TF vs GI Joe, and Windblade. Oh wait, and now Skybound, wheee!
User avatar
Shockwave
Supreme-Class
Posts: 6218
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:10 pm
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Shockwave »

Sparky Prime wrote:"Legitimate"? What makes a "legitimate" book store any more "legitimate" than a comic book store?
For that matter, in this case since we're talking about comic books, a comic book store might be considered more "legitimate".

Honestly, I liked AHM. The whole thing and I'm looking forward to CODA. I can't help wondering what CODA stands for besides Child Of a Deaf Adult. Anyway, I think we really got some good character development out of this and I'm hoping that gets pushed further in CODA.
User avatar
Dominic
Supreme-Class
Posts: 9331
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:55 pm
Location: Boston
Contact:

Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Dominic »

Trekkie, "Coda" got renumbered as issues 13-16. And, issue 13 came out this week. (In other words, get to the comic shop.)
Rather, as McCarthy portrays him as.
And, McCarthy being the writer, has the authority to define Megatron. You do not have to like the character, but McCarthy's presentation (place mooning joke from Prowl here _________) counts for more than what you think a character is/should be.
For that matter, in this case since we're talking about comic books, a comic book store might be considered more "legitimate".
I should have said "main-stream". What I was getting at is that comic stores are not necessarily the best indicators of how saleable something is beyond a very small (and shrinking), and ever more insular, group. There is a reason DC and Marvel "write for the trade". The trades sell at Barnes and Noble, and reach a wider, more desirable, audience than a comic shop will.

As much as I like going to Comicazi or Harrisons, (two great shops if you are in/around Boston), stores where people pay $10+ for a basic action figure, or buy $50+ replicas of comic book artifacts may not be the best indicators of a market.




And, now, AHM 13:

At times, it can be tempting to drop a comic. This sort of thing is common after an especially bad or good run. The incentive to drop a book after a bad run is obvious. But, after a good run, the incentive can be an almost perverse desire to get out while things are good, so as to not be around when/if (probably when) they get ruined. I admit to being tempted to drop AHM with issue 12 for the latter reason. But, issue 13 vindicates my decision to keep reading this title.

The first story in AHM #13 is a Prime/Ironhide story by Furman and Figueroa. Furman is in good form this issue. His worst excesses are kept to a minimum. And, the two biggest examples are likely intentional. (The one exclamation point is used after the word "Prime", in a dialogue balloon by Optimus. And, at one point, there is a comment about platitudes. Both are executed gracefully enough that it is safe to assume Furman knew what he was doing.) The story is thematically consistent with AHM as a whole, easy enough considering Prime is one of the two characters. The second story, by Costa makes an attempt at answering some of the questions fans had about the value of the Matrix in AHM. (I confess that it is nice to see things that I have been arguing for months addressed directly in context, even if they were apparent to begin with.) Both stories are a bit ham-fisted, but given that this issue is intended as an info-dump, that is not wholly unreasonable. (And, it could have been so much worse.)

Another notable feature of this issue is the art. I have always been a fan of Figueroa's clean yet complex style. (He is one of my favorite artists, along with greats like George Perez.) And, now, Figueroa's style has evolved, blending the aesthetics of "Generation 1" and the movie. It is still a bit rough in places, (such as Ironhide having very sharp teeth), but over-all Figueroa manages the attempt gracefully, preserving the best aspects of both. Ong's art in the Starscream story perfectly suited to the tone and theme, being subdued and heavily shaded but still clear. (As an aside, it looks like Starscream's character model is no longer consistent with the Masterpiece toy.)

Grade: A Well worth picking up. It reads like the better back-ups from the old Marvel annuals.





Dom
-would rather see Mowry writing that lettering.
User avatar
Shockwave
Supreme-Class
Posts: 6218
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:10 pm
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Shockwave »

Dominic wrote:Trekkie, "Coda" got renumbered as issues 13-16. And, issue 13 came out this week. (In other words, get to the comic shop.)

I should have said "main-stream". What I was getting at is that comic stores are not necessarily the best indicators of how saleable something is beyond a very small (and shrinking), and ever more insular, group. There is a reason DC and Marvel "write for the trade". The trades sell at Barnes and Noble, and reach a wider, more desirable, audience than a comic shop will.
Oh ok. I will go after work.

Ah, "main stream", well that's a whole other beast entirely. Honestly, I don't really care about the numbers of how well something is doing as long as doesn't suck and if it doesn't, then it should keep going.
User avatar
Sparky Prime
Supreme-Class
Posts: 5316
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:12 am

Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Sparky Prime »

Dominic wrote:And, McCarthy being the writer, has the authority to define Megatron. You do not have to like the character, but McCarthy's presentation (place mooning joke from Prowl here _________) counts for more than what you think a character is/should be.
Furman and Holmes had already defined Megatron given the previous stories in this continuity. A writer cannot just change a character to suit their own needs, and that's exactly what McCarthy did, and not just with Megatron either.
I should have said "main-stream".
I'd still disagree with that term. The comic book store is still going to be the main-stream for these books.
Grade: A Well worth picking up. It reads like the better back-ups from the old Marvel annuals.
How about that... We actually agree on a comic book for once. Something must be wrong.

But yeah, issue 13 I felt was the best thing to come out of AHM so far. It actually fleshes out characters as well as explains a few things unlike in McCarthy's writing for the rest of the series. The Matrix in particular, as I'd thought, Megatron had only told Starscream and Soundwave and hidden it away from the rest. I was also right in that the Decepticons who have studied it found it useless. But when Starscream is discovered with it accidentally, he of coarse lies that it 'choose' him. Kinda funny to see his reaction on the last panel. He knows he's in for a world of hurt when the truth is discovered.

Figueroa's art I've always been a huge fan of. Really interesting to see his intermingling styles with the G1 designs and the details of the movies. It makes for a rather unique look. I wasn't expecting to like Ong's style, but like Dom said, it really fits the mood of this story.
User avatar
Dominic
Supreme-Class
Posts: 9331
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:55 pm
Location: Boston
Contact:

Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Dominic »

Furman and Holmes had already defined Megatron given the previous stories in this continuity. A writer cannot just change a character to suit their own needs, and that's exactly what McCarthy did, and not just with Megatron either.
And does McCarthy contradict Furman and Holmes? Megatron never came across as a brilliant leader who would plan for every eventuality and never ever ever have reality muck with his plans.

Megatron was a disgruntled worker who became a competent leader. But, history has examples of leaders who do really well in time of war....and drop the ball, or simply get run out of office, in times of peace. So yeah, McCarthy is allowed to have Megatron make mistakes.

I'd still disagree with that term. The comic book store is still going to be the main-stream for these books.
Who cares about "mainstream for comics"? Their is a huge publishing and selling industry beyond.

No publisher wants their primary, let along only, distribuition channel to be comic stores. That would be insane. And, regardless ofpreferred channels, a sale is a sale is a sale. Most publishers *are* catering to the Barnes and Noble crowd. That is why nearly every story is getting reprinted as a compilation now.



It is amazing how close I was about the Matrix. It does have tremendous political value. (Shrapnel: "Holy crap! Where the heck did you find that?!?!?!?!" Well, words to that effect.) It is a good bet Megatron knew what he had, even if he more or less kept quiet about it.

I think Starscream is less worried about the trouble he will get into and more worried about the fact that he *knows* the jig will be up eventually. He is leader for pretty much the reason he said did not justify being leader, dumb luck. He had the Matrix, and did not even know how important it was until somebody else pointed out what they thought was obvious.
User avatar
Sparky Prime
Supreme-Class
Posts: 5316
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:12 am

Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Sparky Prime »

Dominic wrote:And does McCarthy contradict Furman and Holmes?
Yes, he does. On several points at that.
Who cares about "mainstream for comics"? Their is a huge publishing and selling industry beyond.
Those who actually buy comics for one. In the "industry beyond", comics is only a small school of fish in an ocean.
It is amazing how close I was about the Matrix. It does have tremendous political value. (Shrapnel: "Holy crap! Where the heck did you find that?!?!?!?!" Well, words to that effect.) It is a good bet Megatron knew what he had, even if he more or less kept quiet about it.
I'd actually say my interpretation was closer. Starscream acknowledges Megatron "might just as soon have stolen one of Prime's spare tires" given it is useless to them with out actually being able to access it. Megatron must have known that given he only told Soundwave and Starscream he even had it and kept it well hidden. The only reason the other Decepticons believe it is worth anything right now is because Starscream lied to them about it having chosen him, which is also something he clearly knows will cause him more problems.
He had the Matrix, and did not even know how important it was until somebody else pointed out what they thought was obvious.
It was clear to me Starscream knew the importance of the Matrix before Shrapnel noticed it. The thing is, Starscream clearly also understood it's useless if you can't access it, unless you lie about it, which again will only cause problems down the road.
User avatar
BWprowl
Supreme-Class
Posts: 4145
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:15 pm
Location: Shelfwarming, because of Shellforming
Contact:

Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by BWprowl »

Okay, I got AHM 13, but I won't bother reviewing it, since I pretty much agree with everything everyone has said. Instead I'll just skip straight to arguing about it!
The only reason the other Decepticons believe it is worth anything right now is because Starscream lied to them about it having chosen him, which is also something he clearly knows will cause him more problems.
Actually, I'd say the other 'Cons are at least aware of its perceived value. Like Dom pointed out, Shrapnel walks in and goes "Oh God, you've got the Matrix! Do you know how important that thing is?" So at least he knew it was important.
It was clear to me Starscream knew the importance of the Matrix before Shrapnel noticed it. The thing is, Starscream clearly also understood it's useless if you can't access it, unless you lie about it, which again will only cause problems down the road.
No, Starscream pretty much thought it was useless until Shrapnel pointed its importance out to him. Starscream says "Supposedly some device of ultimate power...it is ultimately useless. Whatever power it had is gone. I doubt it ever had any at all." So yeah, he thought it was a useless hunk of junk from the start.

I like the juxtaposition here. Starscream thinks only of physical, laser-blasty power, and fails to notice that the true power of the Matrix is in its symbolic power (which is pretty much what Dom was saying its role was all along).

Prime has a mouth!!

God dammit what was Rumble doing there?!
Image
User avatar
Sparky Prime
Supreme-Class
Posts: 5316
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:12 am

Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Sparky Prime »

BWprowl wrote:Actually, I'd say the other 'Cons are at least aware of its perceived value. Like Dom pointed out, Shrapnel walks in and goes "Oh God, you've got the Matrix! Do you know how important that thing is?" So at least he knew it was important.
'Perceived value' being the key word there. Again, the point of the Matrix is to be chosen by it, to have access to its abilities. With out that, it is useless to anyone else. The Decepticons know the important role it plays in choosing the Autobot's leaders but again, that's useless with Optimus alive or if it hasn't actually chosen that 'bot.
No, Starscream pretty much thought it was useless until Shrapnel pointed its importance out to him. Starscream says "Supposedly some device of ultimate power...it is ultimately useless. Whatever power it had is gone. I doubt it ever had any at all." So yeah, he thought it was a useless hunk of junk from the start.
No, that quote goes to show Starscream does know the legends behind the Matrix and thus the significance behind it, but he cannot unlock the power it holds, so he doesn't believe it's the powerful relic legends say it is and as such is useless to him. Shrapnel (and the other Decepticons) doesn't know that though, and in his babbling about it, he gives Starscream an idea of how to use it to make himself undisputed Decepticon leader, at least until the truth gets out.
User avatar
BWprowl
Supreme-Class
Posts: 4145
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:15 pm
Location: Shelfwarming, because of Shellforming
Contact:

Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by BWprowl »

Sparky Prime wrote:The Decepticons know the important role it plays in choosing the Autobot's leaders but again, that's useless with Optimus alive or if it hasn't actually chosen that 'bot.
And yet, Shrapnel is still totally amazed and impressed that Starscream has the Matrix, even before Starscream says it 'chose' him.
No, that quote goes to show Starscream does know the legends behind the Matrix and thus the significance behind it, but he cannot unlock the power it holds, so he doesn't believe it's the powerful relic legends say it is and as such is useless to him.
What...? Either it has power or it doesn't. It doesn't go "It has power, but I can't unlock it, so that means it has no power at all period". Starscream's speech is pretty clear-cut to me. Megatron told him that it was an item of great power, but he doesn't see anything special about it. He specifically says that he thinks it *never* had any power. That's not "This thing is totally powerful but I can't unlock it so it's useless to me", it's "This thing has no power at all and Megatron was an idiot for stealing it because there is nothing to be gained by having it". Seriously, do you think Starscream would just toss an item of infinite power out of the airlock just because he couldn't find a way to open it within the first five minutes? If he actually thought it had power locked in it, he'd keep it around and figure something out. But he literally thought it was a useless 'bauble'.
Image
User avatar
Dominic
Supreme-Class
Posts: 9331
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:55 pm
Location: Boston
Contact:

Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Dominic »

The point is that Starscream was thinking like a Furman character. If the McGuffin is not, (as Prowl more or less put it), a big shooty laser thingy, it is useless.

But, as shown here, Shrapnel's reaction to seeing the Matrix gives it power. Starscream knows the legends. But, he does not buy into them unless there is a direct benefit to him. He is too small-minded to see that *others* believing the Legends (and acting accordingly) is almost as good in practical terms as the actual legends being true.

When Starscream says the Matrix is without value, he is wrong. Yes, the main, narrating, character is comletely off base. Wowzers. Narrative complexity.

'Perceived value' being the key word there. Again, the point of the Matrix is to be chosen by it, to have access to its abilities. With out that, it is useless to anyone else. The Decepticons know the important role it plays in choosing the Autobot's leaders but again, that's useless with Optimus alive or if it hasn't actually chosen that 'bot.
The perceptioon of power is nearly as useful as actual power. If somebody seems confident, and competent, they enjoy the benefits of those traits almost as much as if they actually had them. (I have seen projected comfidence trump competence actually. It is really quite infuriating.) This is where rituals like "Chicken" or any sort of posturing (among people or lower animals) comes from.

This is why old animals sometimes get more aggressive, they want to ward off interlopers. My old cat was about 14 or 15 when she drove off a rottweiller. She projected enough aggression that the dog wanted nothing to do with her. (Granted, the dog was not aggressive, but my cat profited from seeing weakness on the dog's part.) My cat's willingness to fight was as important as her (then much diminished) ability to. One of my current cats was once intimidated and bullied by a cat that was ~18. (This would be like a healthy 22-25 year old being bullied by a 90 year old man.) It was the perception of strength more than the physical ability that mattered here.

Countries do the same thing. Us nuking Japan was as much for the Soviets as for the Japanese. And, the Soviets brutalizing the Nazis in Berlin impacted US policy. Neither of us really wanted to fight the other. The Soviets saw a material advantage for the US, (despite the fact we were in fact pretty well tapped at that point), and we saw a moral advantage for the Soviets (despite how fractious they USSR really was).

When I deal with clients, I generally do not let on about office politics here. Many of my clients simply assume I have far more influence than I in fact do. I am not saying "I am a very influential man". I sometimes gently admonish my clients, ("do you know what you are actually saying!?!?!? Seriously, I am very low on the totem poll here...."), to make sure they understand there is only so much I can do for them. Just the informatino they *assume* I have is amazing. Much of my power and credibility with them comes from perception. (Often after I correct them, my credibility goes up, because of confirmed honesty.)

The Matrix is valuable because enough guys will see it and say "wow". Starscream was too myopic to see that until he heard a guy say "wow, the Matrix". (Apparently, Starscream has a very limited frame of reference.) If nothing else, Starscream knows, or at least *should know, that the Matrix will motivate the Autobots to jump the way he tells them to.

Given the material advantage the Decepticons have, if Starscream cannot figure out a way to lure Prime and co into some kind of trap, he deserves whatever he gets. (And, hey, maybe Starscream is that small minded and stupid.) The Matrix has value beyond being a cosmic McGiffin if one is smart enough to exploit how others will react to it.



Dom
-enjoys stories that assume a real life frame of reference, even if they use giant robots.
Post Reply