Comics are awesome.

[Onslaught Six]

I never read Toxin's books, but his name isn't idiotic, at least--but I think a Symbiote As A Hero would only really work in the larger universe framework if Venom were Evil. (And, technically, right now, he is, since he's Scorpion--but Eddie Brock is Anti-Venom.)

[Sparky Prime]

I kinda liked Toxin. I had wondered when they'd do a story where Carnage gave birth, so I was happy they finally did that at least. And I thought it was a nice touch having Toxin bond with a cop. Such a huge contrast to Carnage/Cletus. I like to see that symbiotes can be portrayed as good guys as in the case of Toxin instead of being inherently evil as seems to be the trend lately. Too bad they haven't done anything with the character since he helped recapture some of the Raft prisoners who broke out though.

And there are a few other symbiotes out there who were artificially engineered from Venom by the Life Foundation. Hybrid, who actually has four symbiotes (although apparently one has since left and bonded with an unknown college student as was mentioned in a recent Avengers: Initiative issue) and he acts as a guardian of his neighborhood. Then there was Scream, who is a villain/anti-hero but hasn't been seen in years. And a She-Venom clone of the Venom symbiote who basically just vanished as well.

[Shockwave]

I kinda liked Toxin. I had wondered when they'd do a story where Carnage gave birth, so I was happy they finally did that at least. And I thought it was a nice touch having Toxin bond with a cop. Such a huge contrast to Carnage/Cletus. I like to see that symbiotes can be portrayed as good guys as in the case of Toxin instead of being inherently evil as seems to be the trend lately.

Yeah that's one of the things I really liked about him as well. And not just a cop, but a cop with a family so he has all these "real world" problems as well. I think that's one of the things that made Spidey to likeable to begin with was the fact that he had real world problems in addition to his superhero problems. By that token I think Toxin is an interesting enough character with enough potential that he could have his own series.

Toyfare recently did an article detailing all of the symbiote characters including the ones that were cartoon only. It was interesting to see what had been done with it over the years.

[BWprowl]

I think that's one of the things that made Spidey to likeable to begin with was the fact that he had real world problems in addition to his superhero problems.

Argh, I am so sick of hearing this about Spider-Man. Not only do the people who profess it make it sound like he's the only one that does it (he's not; Clark Kent has real-world problems too), but they completely ignore that the whole scenario is unrealistic, even by comic book standards! "I like Spidey because he's a Regular Guy, just like me!" they'll say. Oh, really? When was the last time you found yourself able to go to school, hold down a job, swing around town fighting bad guys every night, make web fluid, repair a costume regularly, do menial detective work to track down the aforementioned bad guys, and still manage to date three women at the same time? See, Bruce Wayne characters are the type who makes WAY more sense for this sort of thing. Of course the rich idiot with no day job has time to go out and bust heads every night. He doesn't even go out socializing unless it feeds some ulterior motive he's worked into his Bat-Schedule! I'm sorry, but people bring this up every time they talk about what they like about Spider-Man, and not only am I tired of hearing about it, it just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe you're not like me in that you prefer your heroes to be people *better* than you whom you can actually *look up* too, but you still can't sit there and tell me that Spider-Man is a "Regular Guy" just like you, just because he can't make rent because he spent his time catching criminals with his superpowers instead of working, and you can't make rent because you spent all your money on comic books.

*throws hands up in the air* I'm sorry, but I only today realized that I hated Spider-Man, and it was kind of an aggravating epiphany.

[Shockwave]

Wow, who knew that would be the post to illicit such a response? I'm sure there are other superheroes that do that, but we weren't talking about them, we were talking about Spidey. Yes, as a matter of fact, I DO like the fact that Spidey can't make the rent and you know why? Because I can relate to that! What I can't relate to is Clark Kent whirling into Superman and bolting off to Krypton for years at a time just to come back and find his job conveniently waiting for him like nothing happened. What I also can't relate to is being born with silver spoon up my ass rich enough to build my own personal bat-empire all just to deal with having fell down a well after some dead parents or whatever the hell his origin is. Yes, I like seeing superheroes deal with the practical day to day BS that I myself and the rest of the real world has to do with. The fact that he can't make rent sometimes means that he doesn't actually succeed at all the things you mentioned.

/rant.

[Dominic]

I think Prowl's point is that Spiderman actually makes about as much real-world sense as Superman because the demands that Spiderman has would be too much for most any "regular guy". Frankly, I get punchy after a few days of too little sleep, and I have far less stress than Spidey does.

Spiderman also seems to have time to preen/shave regularly. (Shaving is one of the first things I skip when I am tired, especially if I have a regular job and/or school, as I have little incentive to spend more time on something that will not help with those things.)

*throws hands up in the air* I'm sorry, but I only today realized that I hated Spider-Man, and it was kind of an aggravating epiphany.

Truth be told, I have hated Spidey for about 15 years now. Guess why?

What I also can't relate to is being born with silver spoon up my ass rich enough to build my own personal bat-empire all just to deal with having fell down a well after some dead parents or whatever the hell his origin is.

Who cares about relating to a fictional character? I know what my life is like. I have a pretty good idea what those around me live like. Why is it important to identify with the character? I do not care how likable a character is, if the writer has nothing to say, they have nothing to say.


Dom
-has not read for character in years.

[Shockwave]

Who cares about relating to a fictional character? I know what my life is like. I have a pretty good idea what those around me live like. Why is it important to identify with the character? I do not care how likable a character is, if the writer has nothing to say, they have nothing to say.

Because I have better and more important things to do with my time than sit around reading about characters I don't give a shit about. Now we're discussing writing on a fundamental literary level. If a writer writes characters that no one can relate to and no one cares about, then what motivation does anyone have for reading the story? If I don't care about the characters I sure as shit don't care about the situation they're in and at that point the writer isn't saying anything worth paying attention to. What's the point of having a good plot if you have characters you don't care about? It's wasted at that point. Ok, let me try it this way: Spidey has some problems I can relate to. So when I read Spidey it's like the writer saying "hey, you know that problem you have? Well what if THIS happened?" It makes me imagine what my life would be like if I experienced what he experienced. It's therefore easier to imagine the situations because the character has enough similarities to "real life" that I can imagine what this would be like in real life. So if I identify with Spidey the writer is essentially adding on a "what if" scenario to something that I've experienced and suddenly I give a shit what he has to say on the subject. I think this is why I have a hard time reading Batman and Superman comics. I haven't lost my parents. I'm not filthy rich. I'm not the lone survivor journalist alien from another planet. I'm definately not a super hero. There's nothing there to identify with and as such they're both as characters so far removed from anything I've ever experienced that I have trouble even imagining the world that they live in. As an extension to that it's also therefore hard imagine the situations they're in as being anything more than sensational fantasy for the sake of sensational fantasy.

Actually, I don't read either Spidey, Superman or Batman. As superheroes go, I like Supes and Spidey. I really couldn't give a bat's ass about Batman.

[andersonh1]

I don't have to relate to a character to care though. When I think about the various characters and series I enjoy, such as Transformers or Doctor Who, or any number of other books, TV series and comic characters, there's very little in any of the characters I can relate to. That's not the hook. I like action, adventure, imagination, escapism, and things that just generally don't resemble everyday life.

I think what I dislike is the pretense of normality, where a character is passed off as a normal, everyday person apart from his heroic identity, when in reality he's nothing of the sort, and Spiderman falls into that category. He's sold as Mr. average when he's clearly nothing of the kind. At least with Superman, it's clear that the 'ordinary' Clark Kent is a disguise and Superman is the reality. He's making a pretense at a 9-5 job and identity, but it's not him. Bruce Wayne is a billionaire who lives a life so far from reality that it's not even an issue.

Having said all of that, I can see the appeal of reading about a superhero who is generally ordinary man or woman in most respects and being able to put yourself in that character's place. But that wouldn't be the sole thing that attracts me to a comic series. A poor attempt at it could push me away though.

[Shockwave]

Sure you do, at least on some level. If you like a character, it's because there's "something" about that character that strikes a chord with you. Dr. Who is a good example of this for me since I really have nothing in common experience wise with a Time Lord. But the spirit of curiosity and exploration that the Doctor frequently exhibits appeals to me. I can relate to wanting to explore time and space, even if I can't relate to actually doing so. Same could be said of my love of Star Trek. I will agree with you to the point that you don't necessarily have to be able to relate to a character's "real world" experiences to be able to like them. I like Thor. I have absolutely no experiences in common with a God of Thunder and Lightning. I can relate to his sense of heroism and wanting to fight for the greater good, etc. Same to be said of Superman.

[Onslaught Six]

Spiderman also seems to have time to preen/shave regularly. (Shaving is one of the first things I skip when I am tired, especially if I have a regular job and/or school, as I have little incentive to spend more time on something that will not help with those things.)

Different people grow facial hair at different rates. I'm twenty years old, and I just went two weeks or so without shaving and I barely had any stubble. I had a date last night, so yesterday morning I lopped what was there off in about a minute. My father claims that he didn't have to shave more than once a week until he was thirty. Peter could very well just grow facial hair slowly.

Now, Superman, on the other hand, he just super-wills his hair to not grow any more than it already has.

Who cares about relating to a fictional character? I know what my life is like. I have a pretty good idea what those around me live like. Why is it important to identify with the character? I do not care how likable a character is, if the writer has nothing to say, they have nothing to say.

I definitely understand where you're coming from with this, and in many ways agree. You've said this thing before, too. More in a bit:

As superheroes go, I like Supes and Spidey. I really couldn't give a bat's ass about Batman.

I like Batman a lot, see. I don't relate to his millionaire-playboy-who-had-his-parents-murdered bit, but I *do* relate to his anti-killing thing. Because then he's just like them. It speaks to me on a fundamental level. It's the same reason I like Kenshin Himura from Rurouni Kenshin and Vash The Stampede from Trigun--they've renounced killing people--not because everyone says so (And in fact, in their universes, killing other people isn't even really looked down upon much) but because they have their own reasons.

Like Dom, I don't need to relate to a character on that base level. I don't technically even need to give a shit about Batman's pain--I don't need to *sympathise* with him, I just need to see Batman do stuff. In a *good* Batman story, Batman is either going to act as a static character or a dynamic character. In the former case, it's usually going to be a different character who's the dynamic one. Bad guy shows up, does stuff, Batman shows up, kicks some ass, and (hopefully) reforms the bad guy in some way. He grows. Now, because this is comics, usually that doesn't happen, but in a good story, it does. Take, for example, the episode of Batman: TAS with that little girl villain whose name I can't remember. That's a good example!

In other stories, Batman will be the dynamic character because a static one--the villain--shows something to 'him' instead. I think Batman Begins is a good example here.

Now, there's obviously exceptions to all this, and maybe I'm making shit up out of my ass, I dunno.