TF Views

...To be fair, it could well be that Hunter's mechanical cyborg parts keep him alive in ways that his human body no longer can.

Oh God what am I saying.

I want to see "Shattered Glass" Hunter!

Dom
-is pretty sure we have
a thread for this sort of talk.

BWprowl wrote:Because (A) Prime doesn't know that that's exactly how things work with the 'Cons (Starscream makes a big point of this) and (B) Prime probably figures that trying to deal with an entire army of evil backstabbers who wanted him dead when he *wasn't* in the coveted-and-attainable-only-by-assassination Leader position would probably be more trouble than it's worth.

A) Screamer just told him that's how it works though. B) Yeah, but it gives the Autobots time to deal with the situation at least, rather than have them run off and do who knows what.

Sparky Prime wrote:I'd add that it appears to be a "Only a Decepticon can defeat the leader of the Decepticons to become the Decepticon leader" sort of a thing.

I don't buy that philosophy, that means eventually there will be only 1 Decepticon left because they won't be able to bring in new blood. I can understand not allowing just anybody to take leadership of the faction, but then there shouldn't be this "only the guy who kills me can be leader" thing in play because it leaves a leadership vacuum when the leader is killed by an outsider.

Dominic wrote:Which is actually a pretty sick system when you think about it. To expand on Prowl's point, who in their right mind would take that job? Yes, there are people who would. But, how many qualified candidates would not even apply for it?

An idealist with the intelligence and strength to back that up coupled with the megalomaniacal desire to use that power. However, it only creates loyalty by years of having the other troops watch their leader kill many of his ambitious troops first, which is a great way to have a very SMALL army, so it's extremely paradoxical.

I agree with 86 on his analysis, except for one huge problem. The humans *did* need the Autobots. If nothing else, the guys in NYC would have been kiled in some kind of strike by the Europeans and Asians. And, unless that strike actually killed the Decepticons, they Europeans and Asians would have done nothing but make them mad.

You mean just because the attack on 1 city wasn't a true attack on the whole world? The deuce, you say! If the nuke were to kill a lot of the Decepticon forces - and I kinda doubt it would kill all that many really because a nuclear weapon's blast radius is only super devastating at around 2 to 6 miles - it would show that the humans do have the ability to effectively fight back. Unfortunately, losses are inevitable, so do you kill your enemy and a small percentage of your people to save 6 billion, or do you let your enemy kill everybody instead? But it was clear the Decepticons had the humans screwed, taking control of their nukes that way, so the puny humans did need the Autobots to save their asses.

onslaught86 wrote:Of all the interesting questions, I'm surprised no-one has raised the issue of Megatron. He, too, ultimately seeks a peace, his just happens to be through tyranny. Were terms reached that he would agree with, I do not doubt he would be content. I do find it hard to believe the Autobots would ever agree to his terms, though. Heh.

As I see it, Megatron doesn't truly seek peace, he seeks order as he sees it and if that means killing to make a point, so be it. Peace and order are not the same thing, peace means living alongside those who might otherwise be your enemies, order is a structure which can only be achieved when those who do not think as you do no longer think that way - either because they change their minds, they have their minds changed for them, or they are exterminated. Megatron seeks a universe under his vision of order, thinking that peace will come when all his enemies are dead, but ultimately that means anybody who thinks differently will be seen as a threat to his order and not welcome in his universe. Megatron's goals are the same as any tyrant, a flawed logic that assumes they and their cause are somehow "more right" than everybody else.

Dominic wrote:I disagree with Prowl. Skywarp killing Thundercracker was less shocking than Ironhide beating Mirsge, but not because Skywarp is a bad guy. Skywarp did have grounds to shoot Thundercracker. Operationally, Thundercracker did betray the Decepticons.

Thundercracker was right about Megatron deviating from (publicly stated) principles. But, operationally, he deviated from the Decepticons in the middle of a fight.

Exactly my thinking as well.

donosaur wrote:I have not read this (just the wiki and this intense thread) but it seems like the ambiguity comes from "why didn't they just show the body or something?" The shot has no closure, which doesn't mean there's any reason for him to be alive, but it does lead one to wonder.

By that logic, literally ANYTHING could happen on the next page. Blackarachnia could show up and spin a web around the bomb, pulling it back down to New York and detonating it. Vector Prime could appear out of a time-hole and change EVERYTHING that came before. Sunstreaker could turn up again all cheerfully not having wasted his last moments shutting down a bridge that the swarm would just walk around a few minutes later anyway.

If you see a car spinning out of control towards a wall and you hear a crash, it is safe to assume that the car hit the wall, but literally anything COULD have happened to cause that sound, it's just the amount of likelihood, the probability of what could happen that is in play. You point a loaded, operating weapon at someone's head at point-blank range and pull the trigger, there's not a lot of probability that they'll survive. To say otherwise is deflating the point of the dramatic license in the way they played it out by implying that anything could happen.

I mean, seriously, how the hell do you expect anybody survives this? http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:AHM12_Betrayer.jpg

JediTricks wrote:I mean, seriously, how the hell do you expect anybody survives this? http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:AHM12_Betrayer.jpg

Ooohhhhhhhh... yeah that's pretty cut and dried now that I see it.

JT, you read AHM?

I think TC being dead is one of the few things we have agreed on, though that happening quite a bit in this thread.

I figure the Decepticons would not reward "bad behavior" by following an outsider who killed their leader and clearly did not have Decepticons at heart. There seems to be some roughly organized line of succession to prevent power vacuums, barring in-fighting.

And, the Decepticons would have plenty of recruits in the form of the aimless (Thundercracker), the opportunistic (Swindle), the arrogant (Starscream), or the crazy (Frenzy).

Of course, the guys aiming for leadership jobs would mostly be from those last two categories.


Dom- reads TF for threads like this. .

JediTricks wrote:I don't buy that philosophy, that means eventually there will be only 1 Decepticon left because they won't be able to bring in new blood. I can understand not allowing just anybody to take leadership of the faction, but then there shouldn't be this "only the guy who kills me can be leader" thing in play because it leaves a leadership vacuum when the leader is killed by an outsider.

I never said their philosophy made sense, but that is the idea the comic puts forth.

I mean, seriously, how the hell do you expect anybody survives this?

Again, they are robots and we've seen them survive worst. Remember when Scorponok showed up as half a head in Devastation sometime after Ultra Magnus had shot him in the head in Spotlight: Ultra Magnus? Also, taking into consideration Skywarp appears to be aiming at Thundercracker's eye rather than the middle of his head, it's possible Skywarp didn't even do that much damage to Thundercracker given the blast (theoretically) would have mostly missed.

Why are you even arguing the whole "well he might have survived if...." scenario that requires a willful misreading of the both the context and the writer's intent?


I am tempted to say "If TC comes back, I am out of the hobby", but that would mean putting Thudnercracker on a level with Barry Allen, or AHM (as much as I like it) on a level of importance with "Crisis on Infinite Earths" in terms of shaping the direction of the industry.

Dom

Dominic wrote:Why are you even arguing the whole "well he might have survived if...." scenario that requires a willful misreading of the both the context and the writer's intent?

It's hardly misreading when the context ambiguously ends with only a panel of Skywarp's weapon going off with out any further information and the writer himself cryptically replied when asked if Thundercracker is dead: "His fate is now out of my hands..."

Dominic wrote:I am tempted to say "If TC comes back, I am out of the hobby", but that would mean putting Thudnercracker on a level with Barry Allen, or AHM (as much as I like it) on a level of importance with "Crisis on Infinite Earths" in terms of shaping the direction of the industry.

Well, it depends on how far he "comes back," for me. If Thundy shows up next week without a scratch, then I'll be pissy. (Unless he's never mentioned by name, and could just as easily be a miscoloured Skywarp--although that shouldn't happen in this day and age.) If, on the other hand, the humans find his body and he's got a shred of life left, and they proceed to experiment on him (which would lead to a *very* interesting character arc for Thundy, I must say) then that's a different story.

Barry Allen always sucked. I liked Wally West more.

Dominic wrote:JT, you read AHM?

No, I spent a few hours reading the wiki on it one night. You ever get one of those wikipedia chain-reads, where you look up one thing and it leads to another and that leads to another and another and another? That's how I got to AHM's wiki listings.

The only reason I didn't read AHM, by the way, is because someone gave me the incorrect impression just before it came out that it was like Shattered Glass, and that concept didn't sit well with me. In retrospect, I should have jumped in from the beginning.

I figure the Decepticons would not reward "bad behavior" by following an outsider who killed their leader and clearly did not have Decepticons at heart. There seems to be some roughly organized line of succession to prevent power vacuums, barring in-fighting.

I know, and normally I'd be there, but the idea of following the guy who killed your boss is pretty alien, it leads to trouble when one thinks about it too long, but it also has some fun narrow fuzzy logic too, especially when you think about what types make up the Decepticon ranks.

And, the Decepticons would have plenty of recruits in the form of the aimless (Thundercracker), the opportunistic (Swindle), the arrogant (Starscream), or the crazy (Frenzy).

Of course, the guys aiming for leadership jobs would mostly be from those last two categories.

That creates an interesting philosophical dilemma though, one I've been discussing with you for years now that I think about it. Those who seek leadership are very often the wrong kinds to wield it. Those with honor and vision but no drive like Thundercracker are better role models for leadership but do not seek it. It is an odd dichotomy, one that feeds a dictatorship only for so long before those with honor and vision eventually realize they are following the wrong guy and do something about it.

Sparky Prime wrote:Again, they are robots and we've seen them survive worst. Remember when Scorponok showed up as half a head in Devastation sometime after Ultra Magnus had shot him in the head in Spotlight: Ultra Magnus? Also, taking into consideration Skywarp appears to be aiming at Thundercracker's eye rather than the middle of his head, it's possible Skywarp didn't even do that much damage to Thundercracker given the blast (theoretically) would have mostly missed.

By that argument, you could say that a TF's spark is in his left toe and cut away everything else. There has to be some semblance of connection for the human audience to relate to these characters to tell a story like this. And the whole headmaster-Hunter thing with Sunstreaker shows that their personalities are in their noggins, you take out a big chunk of that and just like a person, you kill them. The blast delivered wasn't surgical precision fine laser stuff, it's a massive whopper of a cannon blast. I just think it's asking a lot to have the audience assume anything could survive those circumstances, and to me this rebellion against that you guys are having is akin to the people looking for the twist in M. Night Shyamalan movies long after he stopped using the gimmick. Yes, comic books (especially those based on toy lines) play fast and loose with death, but rarely are they so directly cheaty about it, they usually go for a much more convoluted cheat because the writers know that no audience is going to buy the character instantly surviving that sort of thing.