Comics are awesome.

[Onslaught Six]

I am too--from what I remembered reading as a kid, he just seemed pretty awesome in and of himself. Sure, he was redundant, but who cares? Superheroes are always redundant.

[138 Scourge]

I was lucky, the combination of Bagely artwork and the existence of Carnage had put me right off of the Spider-Man books long before the Clone Saga even started up. So whutevs, the horrible memories from reading it are entirely other people's problems.

But, once again, and for always, Suck it, 90's Marvel.

[Onslaught Six]

See, I was growing up while all this was going on. Venom and Carnage was what pulled me into the books to begin with. So it's an entirely different thing for me--I think Venom and Carnage are awesome.

[Sparky Prime]

Like O6 said, those stories were what I saw growing up as well and was when I started getting interested in comics. I particularly remember seeing the Spider-Carnage stories in the grocery stores when I'd go with my mom. The symbiotes have always been among my favorite characters. The Carnage TPB I have about his origin is one of my favorites. Doesn't hurt that Bagely is one of my favorite Spidey artists either.

And I was fond of Ben Reilly as well. Scarlet Spider and his version of the Spider-Man costume I thought were cool.

[Dominic]

There are plenty of comics that I read when I was younger that I thought were great at the time, and remember fondly. But, that does not mean they were actually good.

Every so often, it helps to re-read or re-watch old favorites, and judge them honestly.


Dom-is appalled how back old "X-Men" comics actually were.

[138 Scourge]

...I didn't hate the Ben Reilly Spider-Man costume, but the Scarlet Spider suit was pretty bad even for the 90's. "Woo, lookit me, skintight suit and sleeveless sweatshirt I'm AWESOME!" The Ben Spidey suit, though, was a cool and kinda clever redesign that looked like it could actually last. I mean, y'know how sometimes you see someone's got a new suit and you're like "Right, that'll take." Spidey's "Riot Armor", Cap's armor...good God, Hawkeye the Friggin' Archer's armor, stuff like that. Reilly-Spider's suit actually looked like it could last for awhile. So thumbs up to that.

As for Carnage, wasn't buying it, but I read a friend's copy of the orgin. It was like "Hey, y'know this villain you kids like? Well, we made him again, only this time SO EXTREME YOU WON'T EVEN BELIEVE IT!" I dunno, seemed like I might have been in the right age group for that kinda stuff, but I wasn't having a bit of it.

There was a time where I didn't mind Venom, and oddly enough, it was during the time that I didn't mind McFarlane. But pretty much after the period where one of 'em was drawing the other, I just lost interest in both. Adjectiveless Spider-Man, Spawn, and "Lethal Protector" pretty much turned me off on all of that.

So, anyone gonna defend that story where Peter's parents came back and turned out to be robots? That one's gotta have a fan, right?

[Dominic]

Cap's armour was intentionally bad though. Remember, when reading Gruenwald, treat it like a DC book. And, in that case, assume the comic may be trying to say something other than "we love the characters".

Carnage was brought in to fill Venom's role as bad-guy, as Venom was being reformed. Scourge, I think you were a bit older than the target audience. I am pretty sure I was, given that I not only recognized but also disliked what was happening.

Of course, it still beat when they tried, (and gave up on), making Sabertooth a good guy. Remember *that*?


Dom
-forgot about Spidey's parents until reading that DeFalco piece a few days back.

[Sparky Prime]

...I didn't hate the Ben Reilly Spider-Man costume, but the Scarlet Spider suit was pretty bad even for the 90's. "Woo, lookit me, skintight suit and sleeveless sweatshirt I'm AWESOME!"

I disagree. I liked the look. But even still, he wasn't planning on going into costumed crime fighting, and when he found himself in a situation where he needed a costume, that Scarlet Spider costume was what he put one together as quickly as he could. So it's not like he put a lot of planning into that one in the first place.

It was like "Hey, y'know this villain you kids like? Well, we made him again, only this time SO EXTREME YOU WON'T EVEN BELIEVE IT!"

Venom (well, back then at least) isn't anything like Carnage beyond being an alien costume bonded to a human host. Venom hated Spider-Man but he also would protect those he considered innocent. He was kinda like a Punisher type character, only somewhat more of a villain. Carnage on the other hand was a full blown serial killer. Not to mention the Carnage symbiote can do things Venom cannot.

So, anyone gonna defend that story where Peter's parents came back and turned out to be robots? That one's gotta have a fan, right?

Yeah, that was a story I didn't care for. Not the worst ever, but still pretty bad.

[BWprowl]

...I didn't hate the Ben Reilly Spider-Man costume, but the Scarlet Spider suit was pretty bad even for the 90's. "Woo, lookit me, skintight suit and sleeveless sweatshirt I'm AWESOME!" The Ben Spidey suit, though, was a cool and kinda clever redesign that looked like it could actually last. I mean, y'know how sometimes you see someone's got a new suit and you're like "Right, that'll take." Spidey's "Riot Armor", Cap's armor...good God, Hawkeye the Friggin' Archer's armor, stuff like that. Reilly-Spider's suit actually looked like it could last for awhile. So thumbs up to that.

Like Sparky, I actually kind of enjoy the Scarlet Spider costume for the thrown-together-ness of it. I *totally* agree with you on the Reilly Spider-Man costume though, especially since it *did* last, and even became somewhat iconic of 90's Spider-Man in general (for what that's worth).

[Shockwave]

Ok, so after all this talk about Carnage and Venom, what do you all think of Toxin? I got that 4 parter when it came out and I liked it. I've always liked the symbiote characters (even though I didn't read nonTF comics until about 6 years ago) and adding one more I thought was awesome.