Movies are awesome

[Gomess]

No, but... I'm talking about the popular consciousness' view of Star Wars. As far as most people ever are concerned, women do not become Jedi or Sith.

What do you mean as far as most people are concerned? The movies, cartoons, video games, books, comics, toys and what ever else is out there all shows men and women as Jedi or Sith. The popular consciousness should reflect that.

Yeah, but.. it doesn't. If you ask a bunch of total strangers on the street to name all the Star Wars characters they can, and they come up with as many from *outside* the movies as they do from in them...? Maybe then, yeah. Or maybe we roll in very different circles, but I honestly can't conceive of a place on Earth where the recognisability of the offshoot Star Wars media even approaches that of the films.

The very fact two of us have asked who.. uh.. Asaaj? Ventress? and Dash Rendar are, and none of us has had to ask who Darth Vader and Han Solo are, is a neat little microcosm of that.

But, like I said, maybe the folks in your neighbourhood are just reeaaally into their Star Wars. But you gotta ask yourself how much of the Popular Consciousness your neighbourhood accounts for.

[Sparky Prime]

If you ask a bunch of total strangers on the street to name all the Star Wars characters they can, and they come up with as many from *outside* the movies as they do from in them...?

A lot of the Star Wars media outside the movies still follows characters from the movies, so I'm not so sure that would really be an effective way to determine the influences of Star Wars media outside the movies. Heck, how many people could name characters besides the main cast in the movies as it is? I'm sure a lot of people would be calling Admiral Akbar "that fish looking guy". But that doesn't mean they aren't aware of those other characters. Even for me, I haven't seen that much of the Clone Wars cartoon so I have to look up that Anakin's padawan is named Ahsoka Tano because I can't remember it off the top of my head, but I still know who she is.

The very fact two of us have asked who.. uh.. Asaaj? Ventress? and Dash Rendar are, and none of us has had to ask who Darth Vader and Han Solo are, is a neat little microcosm of that.

But you were still aware of the existence of Dash Rendar having seen him through Nintendo Power. The same was true of Ventress for some of those that needed a reminder of who she is. And both of them aren't exactly as involved characters having their appearances fairly limited compared to the likes of Solo or Vader that's not exactly a fair basis you're going with there Gomess.

But, like I said, maybe the folks in your neighbourhood are just reeaaally into their Star Wars. But you gotta ask yourself how much of the Popular Consciousness your neighbourhood accounts for.

I can't say that I know of anyone in my neighborhood particularly into Star Wars actually. Even if they were, that wouldn't mean there isn't a popular consciousness to the existence of female Jedi. Even going strictly by the movies, Obi Wan and Yoda make it sound in Empire Strikes Back that if they fail with Luke, they have a "plan b" which we later find out is Luke's sister. And we clearly see many female Jedi in the prequels. Many of which get more predominant roles in the Clone Wars cartoon, which again, is a pretty popular cartoon in general.

[Gomess]

EDIT: Nah, you know what? We just roll in different circles, and we're both convinced of our positions, so I'm not gonna argue. But if you wanna know what I'm talking about, just ask more people outside Star Wars' fandom sphere (which includes all those properties which cross-brand with it, like TF). If you find that the offshoot media even come close to the movies in terms of popularity, fair enough.

And we don't get Nintendo Power here!

[Sparky Prime]

But if you wanna know what I'm talking about, just ask more people outside Star Wars' fandom sphere

As you say, maybe we're just in different circles. As I said before, I'm not around people who are particularly Star Wars fans and I don't see what you're talking about. Everyone I know knows women are/can be Jedi/Sith.

And we don't get Nintendo Power here!

Whatever. You said it was a Nintendo magazine and I remember they had this big Shadows of the Empire comic years ago.

[Gomess]

As you say, maybe we're just in different circles. As I said before, I'm not around people who are particularly Star Wars fans and I don't see what you're talking about. Everyone I know knows women are/can be Jedi/Sith.

Hang on, just let me get this straight: None of your friends are actual Star Wars fans, but they can *all* name a female Sith? I have to tell you- and I can only hope the others here would agree- that that is pretty exceptional.

[Sparky Prime]

Hang on, just let me get this straight: None of your friends are actual Star Wars fans, but they can *all* name a female Sith? I have to tell you- and I can only hope the others here would agree- that that is pretty exceptional.

I said nothing of the sort. And as I pointed out before, I don't see how naming characters as you suggest goes to prove anything.

[Gomess]

I'm not around people who are particularly Star Wars fans

None of your friends are actual Star Wars fans

Everyone I know knows women are/can be Jedi/Sith

But they can *all* name a female Sith?

Pretty sure you did say something of the sort. Explain! o_o

And... you don't believe familiarity proves popularity? More people know who Darth Vader is than Asaaj Ventress. Ergo, Darth Vader is more popular. Ergo, the movies are more popular than... whatever Asaaj was in.

You seem to be arguing the very definition of popularity, which is a bit mind-boggling, to be honest. I'm sure the books are relatively popular, but... relative's the word. The Star Wars movies are Michael Jackson, and the Star Wars books are Justin Timberlake.

...Anyone? No?

[Sparky Prime]

Everyone I know knows women are/can be Jedi/Sith

But they can *all* name a female Sith?

Pretty sure you did say something of the sort. Explain! o_o

I didn't say they could *name* those characters there did I? No. I said that they are aware that women *are/can be" Jedi or Sith.

And... you don't believe familiarity proves popularity?

Being familiar with a concept, such as a woman being a Jedi/Sith, isn't the same thing as being familiar with those characters.

You seem to be arguing the very definition of popularity

Where are you getting that from? You seem to be making this more about naming characters rather than the concept itself.

[Gomess]

Ok, forget about the name thing. My point is that, as far as the mass populace are concerned, "female Sith" is not a Thing. You get me? I'm sure you know people who, if asked, would say "Well of course a lady COULD be a Sith," but that's not my point. My point is that they probably wouldn't say "There are lady Siths in Star Wars".

So, there's my point. What's yours? That female Sith are just as ubiquitous in the public consciousness as male Sith? 'Cos by disagreeing with me, that's basically what you're saying. If I'm wrong, correct me!

[Sparky Prime]

I'm sure you know people who, if asked, would say "Well of course a lady COULD be a Sith," but that's not my point. My point is that they probably wouldn't say "There are lady Siths in Star Wars".

That's the part I disagree with. It doesn't matter if they say could, the point is it's equal opportunity.

And there are lady Sith, even if not everyone knows who/where they show up.