TF Views

Is that the question of whether or not to quit asking questions until the rules are finalized? Cause I wouldn't recommend it. If you got questions I say feel free to ask, I at least will do my best to answer them. Part of the problem with giving definitive answers though may well be the fact that we don't have the mechanics worked out so some of those questions might not be answerable until they are (particularly questions like what kind of dice we'll use, what specific situations would require a player to roll, etc...). Currently, I'm arguing in favor of a more simplified rule set using the existing tech spec stats from toy packaging as the basis while Dom is trying to come up with a system that would have you rolling dice for every aspect of an interaction. Which I'll tell ya right now is not a game I'm gonna play because that is just way too complicated. I mean, a skill check for speed? Uh, no. Just.... no.

And using Dom's story as an example, the part of the scenario where Speedtrap zips between the tanks, as the RM (Robot Master) I wouldn't even bother having the player roll that. Assuming the top speed of your average tank is about ~60mph and the top speed of your average Ferrari maxes out at ~150, it should be assumed that Speedtrap just zips between them successfully. The Tank players (and I really wouldn't have players on opposing sides, buuuuuut we'll get to that later) could declare an intention to try to squish Speedtrap at which point I would have to point out to them that Speedtrap is travelling about 100 mph faster than they are and that they do not have either the speed or manuverability to pull that off in the .0031 of a second that Speedtrap is actually between the tanks. Unless Speedtrap is like 100 miles away from them in which case I would have Speedtrap do an Endurance check for maintaining top speed for over an hour, but I didn't get that from the scenario presented.

Most character stats I think would more or less be transferrable from one mode to the other with a few exceptions. And now that I have an actual tech spec in front of me I can hammer out what I was using before:

Strength: Used to measure physical lifting strength in robot mode as well as armor rating.

Intelligence: Used for observation checks and other things requiring intelligence

Speed: How fast the TF can go.

Endurance: How long a TF can do a given action (IE: Hold a lifted object, maintain max speed, etc...)

Rank: Yeah, I don't really think we need to use this one functionally, but the PCC "Commanders" would have a slightly higher rank than some of the grunts/solo characters on account of "commanding" their team of drones and/or minicons.

Courage: Used to determine a character's initiative or likelyhood to initiate a given action. Example would be if a player wants to mount a sneek attack, he would roll against courage to see if his character would be likely to do so. A low rating would mean the TF is a coward and would not be courageous enough to mount a sneek attack whereas a high rating means that you could get the drop on an opponent more easily.

Firepower: Used to determine the effectiveness of ranged weapons (range is a set stat determined in the character's description).

Skill: Used to determine proficiency at using special abilities. Rolling for this stat would mostly be used to determine the effectiveness of this action rather than the success or failure of it. For example, Hound has a rating of 9 on skill. He wants to create a hologram of Shockwave. Player rolls a 6. The Shockwave hologram is created but is not perfect. Maybe a minor detail is different like the gun arm being on the wrong side or perhaps a slight miscoloration somewhere. A low roll, like a 2 or 3 would result in a massively distorted hologram like maybe it's perfect... but 1/8 of Shockwave's actual size. Or it's the right size and shape, but red instead of purple.

So, we have Skywarp's tech spec available, so let's look at this in practical terms:

Name: Skywarp
Function: Warrior
Motto: "Strike when the enemy isn't looking."
Bio: Skywarp is the sneakiest of all Decepticons. Enjoys playing cruel pranks on fellow Decepticons and appearing out of nowhere to attack Autobots. Not too smart. Would be useless without Megatron's supervision. Top speed 1500mph. Can instantly teleport up to 2.5 miles. Carries heat-seeking missiles and variable-calibre machine guns.

Strength: 7
Intelligence: 9 (?)
Speed: 9
Endurance: 7
Rank: 9
Firepower: 8
Skill: 8 (?)

I've placed the (?) near two of the stats because for the bio given the stats don't really make sense (it's also been theorized that the stats on Starscream and Skywarp's specs were actually reversed). A character who's "not too smart" and is "useless without supervision" is not going to have an intelligence rating of 9. No way. I would give him 4. Maybe 5, tops. And someone described as "useless without supervision" subsequently does not have a skill rating of 8. Again, we might be talking around 4 or 5. So in the case of using actual tech specs from the toys, some modding is going to be needed.

Having said that, here's how this would work in game:
Strength is 7. This would work for both robot and vehicle mode, meaning that he's pretty strong and lift quite a bit, and pretty well armored, but not invincible.
Intelligence. Again, I'm gonna be generous and give him a 5. If Skywarp is walking down a corridor, he's not likely to notice things out of place. Like Bumblebee hiding in a corner of a mine shaft, despite Bumblebee being colored in such a way to make him stand out like a sore thumb.
Speed is 10. For this I think we would modify this down to 8 (that being the top speed for aircraft). Most speed actions would be declared rather than rolled. Speed would really only need to be rolled in terms of reaction time (like if Skywarp decides to dodge a blast or around various objects while flying).
Endurance is 7. He's fast and can maintain that speed for quite a while.
Rank is 9. That means he can tell a lot of other Decepticons what to do. Not that he has the intelligence to do so.
Courage is 9. Meaning that he has no fear of charging into battle or mounting sneak attacks (as his bio says he's prone to doing).
Firepower is 8. His ranged weaponry is very accurate and very likely to hit you.
Skill is (mod) 5. Sure, he has a lot of abilities, but he lacks the skill to use them effectively without someone telling him how to do so. In game, this means that if he want's to use his teleport ability, he's just as likely to accidentally teleport right in front of an Autobot as behind one (assuming he was aming for behind).

I think this is a pretty straightforward system that could be simple enough to be used by everyone and functional to the game without nitpicking every facet of every interaction (most of the game is role playing which should mostly just be declared rather than rolled). The only real problem would be that some stats on the actual tech specs would have to be altered to fit the game. For example, I'm pretty sure Prime's spec has his speed listed as ten. No way is a mack truck the same speed as a fighter jet. He therefore gets modded down to a 5, tops. Megatron likewise would have a speed rating modded down to 3 max. He can run. In robot mode. and that's it. Gun mode has a speed of 0.

And a couple of other thoughts: Armor, in addition to the "Strength" rating, would also have a point value associated with it so that a character would know when their armor is no longer effective. For example, if Speedtrap wanted to fire on one of the Deceptitanks, he would roll his Firepower vs. their strength. The player controlling Speedtrap would only need to roll the difference between the two ratings. So, if Speedtrap has a firepower rating of 4 and the tank has a strength rating of 9, the player needs to roll a 5 or better. Let's say he rolls a 7. He then rolls a dice to see how much damage to the tank's armor is done. For the purposes of character creation in terms of measure when a character has taken enough damage to be "dead", they would obviously need a hit point value. This would be a multiplyer based on their strength and probably something else. Endurance maybe. I dunno, I don't recall how we reconciled that when I ran my game a few years ago. Maybe Strength time Endurance could be how that's figured out?

I'm not sure about strength representing armour... I always read Strength as being "offensive" and Endurance as being "defensive", simple as that. But I guess Endurance is also a useful gauge of stamina, i.e. how long a speedster can outrun a missile, or how long a powerhouse can heft a blast door.

Would Skill factor into physical combat much, then? Presumably it's equivalent to "technique" in a martial arts sense. A punch from, say, Bugly might not be as *strong* as one from Brawn, but it would surely do just as much damage- or perhaps just a different kind of damage, inducing momentarily paralysis or somesuch, instead of just blunt impact.

The reason I ask is I'm hoping someone will play a martial artist character, so they can- attempt to- teach my powerhouse some moves.

That said, I would like another check on who's actually up for this... At the mo we seem to have Dom as the ref, Trekwave, Ursus and me as players... O6 expressed some interest early on, and I'm surprised Prowl isn't up for it since he does tabletop gaming IRL... I just worry three isn't enough for a dynamic party.

I'm down for whatever.

G, here's the thing: Think of this like Final Fantasy, except in Final Fantasy, all these checks and balances are done behind the scenes by the computer. Every time you enter a battle, there's a chance you'll be attacked from behind, or you'll surprise the enemy. That's an initiative roll. Every time you miss, that means the monster's evade (I think FF used that?) is higher than your chance of hitting them. That's why you bother to get better weapons and armour, because they up your stats.

Dom: How are we determining hit points, if at all? I would assume if a character's hit points reach zero, they'd enter a kind of stasis lock state, not dissimilar to a Pokemon fainting or other such things. They could be revived later (for a cost).

Re: Speed: I'm pretty sure this is at least intended to be "maximum speed in any mode." Going by the '84 techspecs (arguably the truest source), guys like the jets and cars are the fastest, while guys with non-mobile altmodes like Soundwave, Megatron and the tapes have speed ratings of 2-3.

I would think the best way to handle altmode stats is that everyone's altmode gives them a specific set of stat boosts. For example, someone who turns into a tank like Brawl or Warpath might get an endurance or firepower boost, while guys like Speedtrap could get a speed boost. This need not be uniform; there could be characters (spies? Bumblebee?) who gain courage when they're in their altmode due to their disguise element. These bonuses would all be subject to DM approval.

Instead of a ten-point system, we could change to a 20-point and do .5s; Beast Wars' techspecs were done this way if I'm not wrong. That would make it easier to feel character progression if such a thing is really an issue. Honestly, I'm more in favour of characters earning more generic "points" which would be then used in various ways--healing your character or repairing/replacing body parts could cost Generic Points, for example. Buying a new gun could as well, which could give an actual stat boost or modifier but wouldn't actively change a character's stats.

Shocktrek:

I've placed the (?) near two of the stats because for the bio given the stats don't really make sense (it's also been theorized that the stats on Starscream and Skywarp's specs were actually reversed).

This is true, although it really does seem like after all Thundy was involved too. Here's Starscream and Thundy's tech spec numbers:
As you can see, the only differences between them is the Intelligence, Rank, Firepower and Skill, Skywarp (supposed to be Starscream) having higher stats than the other two and the highest rank of any Decepticon besides Megatron. The only difference between Thundy (supposed to be Skywarp) and Starscream (supposed to be Thundy) is intelligence; Thundy is supposed to have a 7 but he has Skywarp's 4. (So maybe Skywarp wasn't the best example.)

For example, I'm pretty sure Prime's spec has his speed listed as ten. No way is a mack truck the same speed as a fighter jet.

I think Prime's speed is actually a 9, the only stat of his that isn't a 10. In addition, there might be different rules for jets and ground vehicles. (As I said above, I think the speed stat should be modified greatly to account for altmodes.)

In most RPGs that I've played IRL, "skill" doesn't factor into combat at all. It's a straight numbers game. Get your number higher than your opponent's. In most cases it's ranged and involves weapon/attack rating vs. armor/defense rating. Make the difference in the two numbers and you succeed at which point you make a separate roll for how much damage is done. Most of the time the type of damage isn't taken into account unless you specifically declare it as part of your action, in which case, skill might be used to determine your success (in other words, do you actually have the skill to pull off said action in the first place?)

So like for Skywarp, let's say he want's to teleport down to an Autobot, grab it then teleport into the sky and drop said Autobot 2 miles away into something dangerous and then teleport back to where he was to begin with. well, this sounds like too well thought out of a plan for Skywarp, so a skill check might be in order to see if he's even capable of that action in the first place (I might also have the player roll an intelligence check to see if Skywarp would even be smart enough to come up with this plan as well). If those rolls are successful, then the player would roll for the effectiveness of the action.

In terms of using a martial arts based attack, that would be straight strength vs. strength. In this case that's because the same stat is being used for both physical strength and armor rating. Most systems would have physical strength vs. armor rating as two separate stats. But, since my system uses strength to measure physical strength, that's the stat that would be used to determine the effectiveness of the melee combat action. If the attack roll is successful, then again, you would roll a separate die for the amount of damage. If you're declaring a martial arts action as an attack on a specific part of a TF then at that point a skill roll would usually be requested.

So it would essentially work like this: You declare that you want Bludgeon to use "boot to the head" on hound. You have a skill rating of say... 7. And strength of 8 and hound has strength of 5.5. So on the skill check you roll an 8, which means you missed the skill check. You didn't hit him in the head. Now, for the attack roll, you need to roll the difference in the two numbers. Yours is already higher, meanin you have to not roll 0 (which is an instant fail). You roll a 2. You hit Hound. Just not in the head. Then you roll for damage (we'll say a standard D20 for damage). You roll a 16. So your attack succeeded, just not the way you declared. You aimed for kicking him in the head but instead hit him very hard in the chest, seriously damaging his armor plating.

Shockwave
-Hopes this helps. Also noticed that Shockwave's stats on his tech spec would not need modification for this system.

Hmm, I guess I understand the basic engine then. It's funny you have to compare it to Final Fantasy for me, since FF probably took all its inspiration from D&D in the first place...

As long as Dom explains what needs to be done as we go along, I should be fine, but I'd hate to be that guy who has to keep asking what he's supposed to be doing.

That's kind of offputting that it comes down to "strength vs. strength", to be honest. Doesn't that mean that.. say.. a bulky stupid guy who's able to lift massive weights but has no combat experience would have a much higher chance of winning a fight against a decrepit ancient robo-hermit with circuit-su skillz who can barely move a chair?

Concerned about damage types, too. Is it possible to effectively cripple a speedster's speed rating by crushing their wheels in a robot mode vs. robot mode fight? 'Cos it should be.

Onslaught Six wrote:I'm down for whatever.

G, here's the thing: Think of this like Final Fantasy, except in Final Fantasy, all these checks and balances are done behind the scenes by the computer. Every time you enter a battle, there's a chance you'll be attacked from behind, or you'll surprise the enemy. That's an initiative roll. Every time you miss, that means the monster's evade (I think FF used that?) is higher than your chance of hitting them. That's why you bother to get better weapons and armour, because they up your stats.

Dom: How are we determining hit points, if at all? I would assume if a character's hit points reach zero, they'd enter a kind of stasis lock state, not dissimilar to a Pokemon fainting or other such things. They could be revived later (for a cost).

Re: Speed: I'm pretty sure this is at least intended to be "maximum speed in any mode." Going by the '84 techspecs (arguably the truest source), guys like the jets and cars are the fastest, while guys with non-mobile altmodes like Soundwave, Megatron and the tapes have speed ratings of 2-3.

I would think the best way to handle altmode stats is that everyone's altmode gives them a specific set of stat boosts. For example, someone who turns into a tank like Brawl or Warpath might get an endurance or firepower boost, while guys like Speedtrap could get a speed boost. This need not be uniform; there could be characters (spies? Bumblebee?) who gain courage when they're in their altmode due to their disguise element. These bonuses would all be subject to DM approval.

Instead of a ten-point system, we could change to a 20-point and do .5s; Beast Wars' techspecs were done this way if I'm not wrong. That would make it easier to feel character progression if such a thing is really an issue. Honestly, I'm more in favour of characters earning more generic "points" which would be then used in various ways--healing your character or repairing/replacing body parts could cost Generic Points, for example. Buying a new gun could as well, which could give an actual stat boost or modifier but wouldn't actively change a character's stats.

Shocktrek:

I've placed the (?) near two of the stats because for the bio given the stats don't really make sense (it's also been theorized that the stats on Starscream and Skywarp's specs were actually reversed).

This is true, although it really does seem like after all Thundy was involved too. Here's Starscream and Thundy's tech spec numbers:

Code: Select all

Strength: 7
Intelligence: 7
Speed: 9
Endurance: 7
Rank: 5
Courage: 8
Firepower: 7
Skill: 7

Strength: 7
Intelligence: 4
Speed: 9
Endurance: 7
Rank: 5
Courage: 8
Firepower: 7
Skill: 7

As you can see, the only differences between them is the Intelligence, Rank, Firepower and Skill, Skywarp (supposed to be Starscream) having higher stats than the other two and the highest rank of any Decepticon besides Megatron. The only difference between Thundy (supposed to be Skywarp) and Starscream (supposed to be Thundy) is intelligence; Thundy is supposed to have a 7 but he has Skywarp's 4. (So maybe Skywarp wasn't the best example.)

For example, I'm pretty sure Prime's spec has his speed listed as ten. No way is a mack truck the same speed as a fighter jet.

I think Prime's speed is actually a 9, the only stat of his that isn't a 10. In addition, there might be different rules for jets and ground vehicles. (As I said above, I think the speed stat should be modified greatly to account for altmodes.)

The G1 specs had .5s on them too. Shockwave's speed is listed as 7.5. I was thinking the tech spec speed stat would primarily refer to alt mode since I think we can assume a standard walk/run speed for most robot mode TFs. As for the modifyers you mentioned, those would be akin to the racial ability modifyers in D&D. Like elves get like plus 2 to their dexterity rolls or stuff like that. So a player selecting a tank alt mode would get bonuses to their strength and firepower stats when rolling their character. Jets and sports cars would get speed bonuses and so on and so forth.

On the previous page, I suggested a possible multiplication formula for figuring hit points, my proposal is strength times endurance. From there, there would obviously be multiplyers for things like tanks, jets, etc...

See, I don't like that idea as it implies too much. Starscream's speed is 9, but does that mean he's faster than Hound in altmode, or robot mode? It's too vague. Hound could very well be able to run (or attack) as fast as Starscream, but obviously Starscream can travel faster than him in altmode.

Onslaught Six wrote:. Starscream's speed is 9, but does that mean he's faster than Hound in altmode,

Yes, that's exactly what this means. In terms of gameplay, the likelyhood of individual character speed in robot mode being an actual issue is very slim (unless a character tries to dodge an attack or something). but we would assume bot mode speed rules (a max running speed of 3, and that's being generous) for such interactions. Or maybe reaction could be a skill check like Gomess implied.

...Should I just stay out of this stuff until all the rules are finalised? For real.

You may as well keep an eye on it, if only as a way to learn the system a bit.

Wouldn't it be prudent to do another check of who's up for this? Surely party size will have some effect on how complex the rules need to be.

Very good point. A turn in 40K can take upwards of 5 minutes. Each turn only represents maybe 10 seconds (if even) of game-time though.

I am envisioning this as a traditional RPG, which assumes 2-5 players at any given time. But, if each player has a half-dozen drone and/Minicons to their name, along with their commander.

Skill can be used in the context you're describing, but such things are usually implied and skill is usually reserved for specific special abilities or profficiencies. Like the afforementioned teleport or invisibility abilities.

Most RPGs have a state for manual dexterity, usually called "dexterity" or some abbreviation of that. 40K reduces that to purely combat terms, calling it "ballistic skill" to represent marksmanship.

I have not found any formal definition system for the words as Hasbro used them.

But, according to the wiki, there are other metrics used on specific typs of tech specs

Micromaster Patrols had "team work" and "cooperation". RPMS have "maximum speed", "horse power", "ramming power" and "armour".

Most of these have potential application in the game.

particularly questions like what kind of dice we'll use, what specific situations would require a player to roll, etc...).

I am thinking D6 is the best way to go, if only at first. I am also considering using JavaScript to creat a number generating program. Or, players could some kinf of "guess a number between" method .

Generally, contest actions such as attacks or tasks requiring skill/luck would require rolls.

Firepower is 8. His ranged weaponry is very accurate and very likely to hit you

That accounts for effective range, but what about effect?

Generally, even if weapons have varied names, they generally tend work along 3 or 4 sets of rules, "counts as _____-type of weapon" with similar impact on a player in terms of hit points and damage.

Endurance as being "defensive",

"Endurance" may well have also meant "fuel economy". Energy has always been "a thing" TF. Maybe endurace could represent or be a function of the number of rounds a player could go without negative fatigue modifiers?

Would Skill factor into physical combat much, then?

I would imagine so.

Dom: How are we determining hit points, if at all? I would assume if a character's hit points reach zero, they'd enter a kind of stasis lock state, not dissimilar to a Pokemon fainting or other such things. They could be revived later (for a cost).

It would probably be a function of their resistance to injury (aka armour?).

I would think the best way to handle altmode stats is that everyone's altmode gives them a specific set of stat boosts. For example, someone who turns into a tank like Brawl or Warpath might get an endurance or firepower boost, while guys like Speedtrap could get a speed boost. This need not be uniform; there could be characters (spies? Bumblebee?) who gain courage when they're in their altmode due to their disguise element. These bonuses would all be subject to DM approval.

This is generally what I was thinking.

So like for Skywarp, let's say he want's to teleport down to an Autobot, grab it then teleport into the sky and drop said Autobot 2 miles away into something dangerous and then teleport back to where he was to begin with. well, this sounds like too well thought out of a plan for Skywarp, so a skill check might be in order to see if he's even capable of that action in the first place (I might also have the player roll an intelligence check to see if Skywarp would even be smart enough to come up with this plan as well). If those rolls are successful, then the player would roll for the effectiveness of the action.

Precisely.

Doesn't that mean that.. say.. a bulky stupid guy who's able to lift massive weights but has no combat experience would have a much higher chance of winning a fight against a decrepit ancient robo-hermit with circuit-su skillz who can barely move a chair?

Skill and speed would be factors, influencing one's ability to dodge the attacks of the other. For example, the bulky guy might hit really hard. But, his attacks might be easy enough to dodge. (Primus help anybody he does hit or catch though.)

Concerned about damage types, too. Is it possible to effectively cripple a speedster's speed rating by crushing their wheels in a robot mode vs. robot mode fight? 'Cos it should be.

That is what "severe" on the damage scale is. It represent damage bad enough to diminish a part's use, or deprive a player of a part. In the story, Speedtrap took this type of damage when the tank clipped him. And, one of the tanks was presumably unable to turn in to a jet either because of the explosion or because it collided with Speedtrap.

Starscream's speed is 9, but does that mean he's faster than Hound in altmode,

Exactly. This is why alternate modes will have different stat lines, or be loaded with modifiers.

Dom
-is actually offended by the term "fire blast".