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Y'know, I've thought about it, and if Peter had been Gwen's babydaddy, that would have been a lot better. Because even though there's nothing to say that it happened (because kids still read comics back in those days), Peter and Gwen could conceivably have had relations before she was killed. It makes sense for both of those characters, although Gwen disappearing long enough to have been pregnant, had the kids, dropped 'em off in...wherever, and then come back to high school like nothing happened is still ridiculous.

This way, you still have that ridiculousness, only she's banging a guy old enough to be her father. And Osborn's intercoursing a damn high-school girl. I mean, Osborn's not a good person at all, but I don't think pedophilia's on his list of sins, is it?

Then again, if Peter had been the father, then you got two grown superhero kids for him to be dealing with. Oh, that'd be much better than being friggin' married, wouldn't it?

I dunno, I kinda feel like half the appeal of Spider-Man is that Peter's an extremely well-meaning everyman sort, and that the Spidey part of his life is a release from the pressures of real life. When comics go screwing around making the crazy comic shit happen to the Peter Parker side of his life, it always seems to miss the mark. I mean, for real, what's worse, Everyman being married, or Everyman having sold his marriage to the devil? Why does the devil even want marriage?

While I'm ranting, I really liked everyone knowing who Spider-Man really was. That was a neat idea that fits well with the character, I think. If people in New York see Spidey swinging overhead and yell, "Go, Pete!", then he totally is their Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man. I dunno, I liked it.

Also, that JMS story where Aunt May finds out that Peter is Spider-Man? That was great. Ah, Spider-Man. Potentially the best superhero comic of 'em all, but instead, usually the worst.

Shockwave wrote:No no no, nice try, but starting a new continuity isn't the same as preserving the old one. Nice try at twisting my words, but you have UTTERLY FAILED!!!

"Utterly failed"? Hardly. I don't see that there is any difference. A creator could very easily start a new continuity for the simple purpose of leaving a previous one alone. Or they could find ways to work in the already existing continuity, but around it order not to cause any changes in the previous context. Either way, the result is the same, the previous continuity goes unchanged.

Dominic wrote:In an idiomatic sense, it would have made Spiderman a deadbeat dad. The idea of Mr. Power and Responsibility not knowing he sired the kids would undermine the character.

I don't see it that way in the least. The idea behind Spidey and his "with great power..." deal has always been turning his greatest failures (in particular, not stopping Uncle Ben's murderer when he had the chance) into his greatest strength (the motivation to use his powers to stop crime). This situation wouldn't have been any different. Peter has always been the type of character to take responsibility for his action or in-action. And the point remains that he can't really do anything about something he has no knowledge of.

Onslaught Six wrote:I should be more surprised that there isn't more manga discussion in here, since Prowl and I seem to be the only ones who are suckers enough to buy it, but I'm not. Perhaps I'll change that by reviewing some crap I have.

I'd gladly argue with you over Manga! I've got quite a pile to read through/potentially review myself.

I still wanna see a comic set in toy-universe BW. With the Predacons that were all 'it's.

Sparky Prime wrote:"Utterly failed"? Hardly. I don't see that there is any difference.

Ok, well maybe not "utterly failed". Sorry, I watched all of Invader Zim yesterday and now suddenly feel the need to EPICALLY SHOUT EVERYTHING I SAY!! Ahem. Sorry. Anyway, the difference is in intention. Someone could start a new continuity as a way of retconning the old one out. From that perspective, it's not preserving the original at all, quite the opposite.

Shockwave wrote:Anyway, the difference is in intention.

True enough. But for the purpose of the discussion, my point remains valid.

I can see Scourge's and Sparky's point abour Spiderman. If nothing else, any laxity by Peter in not keeping in touch with Gwen would be balanced (especially in JMS' original scenario) by Gwen not contacting him.

As far as Gwen and Norman, I think Gwen was at least 18, if not in college, when she was knocked up.

If one assumes, with little difficulty, that Gwen was legal, then Osborn is little worse than a Jack Welch. Actually, if Osborn was single, it would arguably be easier to defend than a Jack Welch scenario.


Dom-still been meaning to post about Morrison.

Dominic wrote:If one assumes, with little difficulty, that Gwen was legal, then Osborn is little worse than a Jack Welch. Actually, if Osborn was single, it would arguably be easier to defend than a Jack Welch scenario.

Peter didn't meet Gwen until they started college, and Mrs. Osborn died when Harry was a year old. I don't see why you keep defending it as little worst than a "Jack Welch scenario" though. It doesn't change how messed up it was for Gwen, who was totally in love and dating Peter at the time, to sleep with a man old enough to be her father (and in fact, had a son her age that she was also friends with). And then you've got Norman's side... Remember he was the Green Goblin by this point in time and knew Spider-Man's identity, as well as who Peter was in love with. And then he manipulated the twins to his own purposes. It appears Norman intended sleeping with Gwen as just another mind f*** to Peter.

It was a really stupid idea regardless of whose kids they are or would have been. Can we just agree on that and stop dwelling on it? It was retarded, and it's part of why I don't read Spidey.

The only thing worse than this shit was Peter giving Mary Jane Spider-cancer.

Dominic wrote:

- Quality of the originals, or lack of. Let's face it, the cartoon, as much as I enjoy it, doesn't contain the strongest or most sophisticated storytelling and characterization. It has great voice acting and is great fun, but doesn't really lend itself to the kind of storytelling that a modern audience would expect

It is more the consistency of the cartoon than its absolute quality. The cartoon had some great episodes. The writing and voice acting ranged from excellent to awful. But, the variability in quality makes it hard to use as a basis for anything now.

That's fair, because there are some good strong episodes based on various characters. It's interesting that despite the variable quality of the stories that the cartoon still made quite an impression when it comes to characters. Many of the character traits we associate with various G1 figures up to the present day can be traced back to that 80s cartoon.

Onslaught Six wrote:It was a really stupid idea regardless of whose kids they are or would have been. Can we just agree on that and stop dwelling on it? It was retarded, and it's part of why I don't read Spidey.

The way the story was handled was terrible, but that doesn't mean the idea itself was terrible. I actually think it's a wonderful idea for Spider-Man to have kids. Take Spider-Girl for example. It's a story the fans wont let die, despite the rest of the MC2 universe being discontinued.

The only thing worse than this shit was Peter giving Mary Jane Spider-cancer.

That was "Spider-Man: Reign", an alternate reality. MJ (as far as I know) never had cancer in 616.