The Oracle's Plan

[SynjoDeonecros]

As I said, the only way i can see any DNA form purging mechanism available on Cybertron not working for Megatron would be if, as you said, the purging wasn't perfect and complete, or the Transmetal 2 body he had was so far removed from the typical "season 1" beast modes that Rhinox has and would've been typical for expedition crews at the time, that the purging mechanism just couldn't handle trying to remove it.

That could be it. All the Transmetal and Transmetal 2 conversions might have taken his form beyond what the normal techniques could deal with. That's entirely possible, and certainly sounds plausible.

Yeah, but now that I think about it, it goes back to the whole "Deroboticization doesn't work on Bunnie because of non-original parts, but does work on Eggman, despite having the same non-original parts" dilemma; the DNA purgers likely wouldn't have been able to purge him of his altered Transmetal body, but somehow, during his development of the virus, he was able to give it the ability to revert the Maximals back to their Season 1 forms, regardless of what their current bodies were (even dropping Optimal Optimus down to S1, despite having lost his original body at the end of S1, and thus wouldn't have the DNA "memory" for that mode), so why wasn't he able to figure out how to do the same to his beast mode?

[Sparky Prime]

"At long last, a receptive Spark!"

Actually, I think the line is, "At long last, the receptive Spark!", implying that Primal was the only one. This gets into the whole "cosmic destiny" wankery that I dislike to much in modern TF.

Anyway, as to this whole "The receptive spark," vs. "A receptive spark," it's "A receptive spark." Check it yourself at 4:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFgG7PCuBuA

Yeah, I had checked the episode before I directly quoted it to make sure I was accurate.

I sort of got the impression Megatron might have also had a receptive spark given, at the end of the series, Primal tells him they are are both part of the "balance" and Megatron had gotten access to the Oracle himself, albeit through Optimus. And a case might be made for Cheetor taking over Optimus's role with a receptive spark given the Oracle sends him a message at the very end to indicate Primal's death.

[andersonh1]

I sort of got the impression Megatron might have also had a receptive spark given, at the end of the series, Primal tells him they are are both part of the "balance" and Megatron had gotten access to the Oracle himself, albeit through Optimus. And a case might be made for Cheetor taking over Optimus's role with a receptive spark given the Oracle sends him a message at the very end to indicate Primal's death.

In the case of Megatron, it seems more like the Oracle used his own character traits against him to accomplish the Oracle's long-term goals.

[Sparky Prime]

In the case of Megatron, it seems more like the Oracle used his own character traits against him to accomplish the Oracle's long-term goals.

Essentially, the same could be said of Primal. Still takes a receptive spark (or a sparkless drone) to access the Oracle.

[andersonh1]

In the case of Megatron, it seems more like the Oracle used his own character traits against him to accomplish the Oracle's long-term goals.

Essentially, the same could be said of Primal. Still takes a receptive spark (or a sparkless drone) to access the Oracle.

It would have been helpful had the writers actually defined what a receptive spark actually was. Was Primal receptive because he was open to the ideas and concepts that the Oracle presented, or was there something unique about his spark that allowed him to interface with the Oracle? In other words, was the compatibility philosophical or physical? The fact that the sparkless drone could interface would seem to indicate that there was some physical difference from all other sparks the Oracle had encountered. It may well be that no one else that the Oracle had encountered was suitable to carry out its plan, even if other expeditions had brought back organic material to Cybertron.

I also think it's likely that the Oracle download was what caused the change in Primal's personality and point of view. He went from a small-time ship captain and explorer to a die-hard fanatical believer in restoring organic life to Cybertron after all the information was downloaded into him. He's pretty much the same old Primal for most of the first episode, at least as far as I can tell.

I wonder just what the origins of the Oracle actually are. Assuming that G1 is the history of the Beast Wars/Beast Machines timeframe, in broad strokes anyway, there's no sign of the Oracle during that time period. Unless I'm mistaken, Vector Sigma is a creation of the cartoon and not the comics, so it's reasonable to look to the cartoon for more information on that and the Plasma Energy Chamber. The final episodes of the US continuity, The Rebirth, shows a planet wide 'reformatting' by Vector Sigma that uses the energy from a star to recharge the entire planet. The Oracle is not present, and we have to assume it was constructed by someone in the intervening 300 year gap between G1 and Beast Wars. Primal talks about the Oracle computer being present when the first Transformers came to Cybertron, but he seems to be conflating the Oracle and Vector Sigma.

So who built the "Oracle" shell around Vector Sigma? Who determined the criteria for a 'receptive' spark?

[Dominic]

And evolutionary dead ends isn't scientific or official, or even real; Check out this forum discussion on SFN for a good explanation of how evolution works, and how "evolutionary brick walls" are scientifically crap.

Serious answer: wow, I did not know that. Thanks for giving me something to read.

Smart-ass answer: If the "Beast Wars" writers can misuse the term "DNA", I can apply erronesous science to the show. Now, what to work on, my apparent ignorance of all good things TF, or science? Hmmm.....



I really do not see how my post indicates I am at all unfamiliar with "Transformers". I just pointed out that TFs never needed "DNA scanning" to take alternate modes before BW. Clearly, I know nothing about TFs.

The Maximals are shown using the CR chambers to change form in the first episode of Beast Wars, in conjunction with the aerial DNA scanners.

One theory that has been bandied about over the years is that the beast-guys did not have alt-modes when they landed.

Alternatively, it may have simply been really expensive to apply or remove alternate modes, so they would not do so lightly. (Remember, they landed in what was essentially a giant haz-mat site, and the beast modes initially worked like suits.) For all we know, when they were off-screen and in the chambers, they were mouring the cost of the new forms and/or crying because getting them really hurt.


Dom
-wonders what an ape, a rodent and a big cat were doing hanging out together in that first scene.

[SynjoDeonecros]

Considering that you said that the scanners weren't mentioned until Beast Wars, because "DNA wasn't kewl until the 90s", and that the very presence of the Pretenders and their technology pretty much shoots down any theory that they COULD have flesh and blood alt modes before BW (because why would they need to make whole new shell technology for something that they should be able to do just by scanning something organic? If I remember right, most of the Pretenders were NOT Ark/Nemesis crewmembers, so they should have "working" alt mode scanners that could give them fleshy alts, right?), I'd say trips back to both Science and Transformers 101 are in order.

That's the biggest problem I have with the belief that the G1 Transformers had DNA scanners prior to Beast Wars: Pretender technology. They were designed with the same kind of "hide as a native life form" design as the DNA scanners were invented to be. Why would the G1 Transformers invent this kind of technology, if they already had a similar and more efficient tech built into their alt scanners? That's why I like to subscribe to the theory that they DIDN'T have DNA scanners, back then, and that the scanners were actually developed as the ultimate logical progression of Pretender technology; it makes more sense to have them NOT have the scanners, build the Pretender technology first as a way to test the waters for the possibility, and then refine it into the scanners. Otherwise, it just makes the very presence of the Pretenders redundant and worthless.

As for the Axalon crew...eh, there's just not enough information to make a definitive call, honestly; the Ark and Nemesis crew had their own Cybertronian alts before being reformatted for Earth forms, and Dawn of Futures Past showed that to be true for the Axalon/Darksyde crew, as well, but they could have "reset" to a more neutral body shape sans alt mode, to make converting to a new alt mode during their exploration easier. Otherwise, why would the rest of the crew be profoforms in stasis pods?

[Sparky Prime]

Was Primal receptive because he was open to the ideas and concepts that the Oracle presented, or was there something unique about his spark that allowed him to interface with the Oracle? In other words, was the compatibility philosophical or physical? The fact that the sparkless drone could interface would seem to indicate that there was some physical difference from all other sparks the Oracle had encountered. It may well be that no one else that the Oracle had encountered was suitable to carry out its plan, even if other expeditions had brought back organic material to Cybertron.

Although the other Maximals didn't always see eye-to-eye with Optimus in BM, they still supported and followed him on the Oracle's mission. If having a receptive spark simply meant being open to the Oracle's ideas/concepts, then they should have all fit that criteria, but this is not the case. Also, given Megatron eventually gains access and clearly has the opposite intentions would clearly contradict this. The evidence in the show suggests there is something unique about their sparks.

I also think it's likely that the Oracle download was what caused the change in Primal's personality and point of view. He went from a small-time ship captain and explorer to a die-hard fanatical believer in restoring organic life to Cybertron after all the information was downloaded into him. He's pretty much the same old Primal for most of the first episode, at least as far as I can tell.

I really can't see the download from the Oracle as being the cause of Primal's change in personally. Otherwise, if it had done that, why wouldn't the Oracle have just downloaded what it wanted him to do right away, rather than let him spend the first season trying to figure it out on his own and nearly destroy Cybertron? Seemed to me what the Oracle downloaded was just Primal's direct link to the Oracle/Matrix.

[Dominic]

There are any number of ways the download could have changed Primal. The most basic is that in an uncertain time, (finding one's home planet wiped out), people become open to radical (and often foolish) ideas. Primal needed something to believe in.

The other possiblity, (that I tend to agree more with), is that the Oracle download was a kind of reprogramming, or at least added enough not programming to change what Primal was and how he thought.

That's the biggest problem I have with the belief that the G1 Transformers had DNA scanners prior to Beast Wars: Pretender technology. They were designed with the same kind of "hide as a native life form" design as the DNA scanners were invented to be. Why would the G1 Transformers invent this kind of technology, if they already had a similar and more efficient tech built into their alt scanners? That's why I like to subscribe to the theory that they DIDN'T have DNA scanners, back then, and that the scanners were actually developed as the ultimate logical progression of Pretender technology; it makes more sense to have them NOT have the scanners, build the Pretender technology first as a way to test the waters for the possibility, and then refine it into the scanners. Otherwise, it just makes the very presence of the Pretenders redundant and worthless.

I thought Kenner came up with beast modes because vehicle modes were dated?

I was just arguing that G1 characters never needed "DNA scanning!" to take alternative modes/disguises. I have long been agreeing they did not have DNA scanners. Does that mean I pass TF-101 (Bots for Jocks)? What I am saying is that, based on what we saw in G1, TFs would not have a need for DNA scanners because: 1) Robots would have no real need for DNA in the first place, and 2) it was always good enough just to scan a rought physical templat of something for disguise purposes.


Dom
-bets that both crews cried like babies when they got their new forms.

[SynjoDeonecros]

That's the biggest problem I have with the belief that the G1 Transformers had DNA scanners prior to Beast Wars: Pretender technology. They were designed with the same kind of "hide as a native life form" design as the DNA scanners were invented to be. Why would the G1 Transformers invent this kind of technology, if they already had a similar and more efficient tech built into their alt scanners? That's why I like to subscribe to the theory that they DIDN'T have DNA scanners, back then, and that the scanners were actually developed as the ultimate logical progression of Pretender technology; it makes more sense to have them NOT have the scanners, build the Pretender technology first as a way to test the waters for the possibility, and then refine it into the scanners. Otherwise, it just makes the very presence of the Pretenders redundant and worthless.

I thought Kenner came up with beast modes because vehicle modes were dated?

I was just arguing that G1 characters never needed "DNA scanning!" to take alternative modes/disguises. I have long been agreeing they did not have DNA scanners. Does that mean I pass TF-101 (Bots for Jocks)? What I am saying is that, based on what we saw in G1, TFs would not have a need for DNA scanners because: 1) Robots would have no real need for DNA in the first place, and 2) it was always good enough just to scan a rought physical templat of something for disguise purposes.


Dom
-bets that both crews cried like babies when they got their new forms.

And 3) The G1 Transformers, from what we've seen, hardly EVER encountered a species or planet that WASN'T technologically advanced, so they really didn't NEED to scan a non-technological form, until Beast Wars. Think about it; every animal-based Transformer in G1 got their alt mode purely for the power they gave them, not for any sort of camouflage. Compare this with the original Ark/Nemesis crew, who DID use their alt modes for disguise. I actually heard someone propose this reason as being why the Predacons had such funky colors with their beast modes compared to the Maximals - the Maximals, being explorers, would be conscious of stuff like odd colorings in their beast modes, and would naturally default to the typical animal colors, while the Predacons, who only their beast modes for energon shielding and power, wouldn't care for blending into the scenery. Now that I think about it, that could also be why the Autobot Pretender shells were more realistic and natural human/animal analogues than the Decepticon Pretenders were - the Autobots used the Pretender shells strictly for better camouflage, whereas the Decepticons, not caring for stealth, used their Pretender shells for scare tactics. Plus, thanks to that lack of contact with purely organic, technologically inferior species, the Transformers weren't really interested in gaining organic parts - they WERE in the middle of a critical civil war on a planet devoid of organic life, and any planet they scout out for new sources of energon would likely either be so primitive that they wouldn't bother disguising themselves, or technologically advanced enough that disguising themselves as the local tech would make more sense than something organic.

So, in essence, the G1 Transformers didn't need organic alt modes, at first, because they hardly encountered any population that wasn't advanced enough technologically for them to NEED to scan something organic to hide them. Once their interests in organics grew to the point where more lifelike organic disguises were necessary, they built the Pretender tech, which eventually evolved into the DNA scanners of Beast Wars. At least, that's the most logical progression of events I can see, from what we know of G1 continuity.