TF Views

Ignorance of history, even in living memory, is very common. I meet people all the time who do not know information about their own country's history.

The situation in BW was largely for the bebefit of the writers. But it really was not much of a stretch.

Dom

Sparky Prime wrote:

SynjoDeonecros wrote:And besides that...that brings up another plot hole; Optimus stated he knew so little about Starscream, because the Maximal Elders sealed those records from the rest of the Maximal population, yet in "Bad Spark", he stated that Rampage was a creation of a Maximal experiment to duplicate the mutation that made Starscream's spark indestructible. That seems to indicate that he was PRIVY to the details of the experiment, INCLUDING the records of the Decepticon they based the experiment on. So why claim to not know anything about the 'con if he DID know?

Just because Primal knew the Protoform X project was an attempt to create an indestructible spark like Starscream's doesn't really indicate how privy Primal was to all the details of the experiment, let alone of Starscream. Given the secrecy of the project, I'd assume Primal was only given a 'need to know' briefing on Protoform X, so Primal would know how important it was that Protoform X was properly deposed of and why they couldn't just imprison him or kill him. As such, Primal probably only knew that one detail on Starscream, and that wouldn't be very useful in fighting Starscream, not to mention he probably would be trying to keep the secrecy of Protoform X at the time given X was still in orbit.

We saw in the flashback of Protoform X's retrieval and sealing in the stasis pod that Optimus, Rhinox, AND Rattrap was there, meaning they would have ALL had to be privy to Protoform X's creation, and given Dinobot's study of Starscream, that only leaves Cheetor out of the loop. He didn't NEED to keep the secrecy of X during the time Starscream showed up, and - in fact - his knowledge of X and X's ties to Starscream would've HELPED, at the time. And, while I can believe he was put in a need-to-know basis on Starscream's info, he would've had to be told SOMETHING about the guy, to help prepare him and his crew for the possibility of X escaping; any information given about Starscream's past, especially about how to deal with his indestructible spark (like in Starscream's Ghost or Ghost in the Machine) would've been a huge asset to them.

I'm sorry, but I still don't believe it; there were ample times and opportunities AND sources for both Maximal AND Predacon alike to get the story of the Great War straight, as shown by the writers, and the writers forced them to NOT do so, because it would ruin the whole mysticism they had built up over those events that was crucial to the show's backstory. I can see no way of explaining this away; they tried to cover their asses by making the Great War ambiguous and mythologized, leading us to believe they didn't have the resources or the means to do proper study of those events to clear up the fuzziness, then screwed it all up by showing that they, in fact, DID have the means and resources to do proper study of those events, if they wanted to, then went back to trying to prove that they DIDN'T. It's lazy, it's inconsistent, and it frankly ruins whatever G1 references they made in the show for me; those revelations have now became tainted with the feeling that the Maximals and Preadacons SHOULD'VE known about them well in advance, or at least recognized them in more detail, than treat it all as rumor, speculation, and disbelief.

It may well be that the knowledge they had on Protoform X was simply that he was an attempt to recreate the indestructible spark of "a Decepticon." Remember--the telling of Rampage's story happened *after* they met Starscream, so it could largely be that Primal and the others put two and two together and merely assumed that this Decepticon was, in fact, Starscream.

And, again, there's no reason to assume Ravage isn't being paid handsomely (or perhaps simply being allowed to live in peace and work) for keeping his big filthy feline mouth shut about that whole GeeWun business. (And logically, he shouldn't even be able to talk anyway.)

SynjoDeonecros wrote:As for who they could've talked to...who ever said they couldn't have asked BEFORE they took their trip? True, they probably didn't need the knowledge, at the time, not expecting to be thrown back to prehistoric Earth, but they were on a mission with ties to the events of the Great War; you'd think that they'd try to bone up on their history a bit to make sure they knew what to expect

Their original mission had...nothing to do with the Great War. They were an exploration vessel, with a side job of dumping a messed-up protoform off Somewhere. They got called in to fight the Darkside because they just happened to be the only ship in the area. So yeah, they had no reason to bone up on their G1 history.

But yeah, I don't see why it's so hard to believe that these guys simply didn't know their history very well. Hell, I'll bet you most people these days don't even know what year the Declaration of Independence was signed in, so I don't think it's that big a deal that the Maximals didn't know *exactly* how the Ark and Nemesis wound up on Earth.

BWprowl wrote:

SynjoDeonecros wrote:As for who they could've talked to...who ever said they couldn't have asked BEFORE they took their trip? True, they probably didn't need the knowledge, at the time, not expecting to be thrown back to prehistoric Earth, but they were on a mission with ties to the events of the Great War; you'd think that they'd try to bone up on their history a bit to make sure they knew what to expect

Their original mission had...nothing to do with the Great War. They were an exploration vessel, with a side job of dumping a messed-up protoform off Somewhere. They got called in to fight the Darkside because they just happened to be the only ship in the area. So yeah, they had no reason to bone up on their G1 history.

But yeah, I don't see why it's so hard to believe that these guys simply didn't know their history very well. Hell, I'll bet you most people these days don't even know what year the Declaration of Independence was signed in, so I don't think it's that big a deal that the Maximals didn't know *exactly* how the Ark and Nemesis wound up on Earth.

To Onslaught Six: Remember, the show took bits and pieces of both the G1 cartoon AND the comic, and Ravage WAS a talkative little bastard in the comics, so they might have based their version of the feline on that.

And what the hell are you talking about with the whole Starscream thing? They NEVER assumed that Rampage was Starscream, because they already KNEW that he wasn't, and was only BASED on the Decepticon. Also, "Possession" clearly states that Optimus was DOUBTFUL that it WAS Starscream that possessed Waspinator (which is ironic, knowing now what they knew about Protoform X...), so either way, how could they put "two and two together" WHEN THEY ALREADY KNEW WHAT THE RESULT WAS?

And again, the simple fact that they WERE on a side mission to dump an experiment to clone the spark of one of G1's most notorious backstabbers isn't warranted looking into his records to find out what you're going up against? That doesn't seem like sound policy when transporting a spawn of that 'bot. True, Rampage turned out to be a completely different 'bot from Starscream, but the simple fact that his spark was BASED on the Decepticon warranted SOME sort of research into his past, if only to look for clues on how to handle the monster should it break free, ways of subduing its spark.

I'm not saying that I expected EVERY Transformer in the Beast Era to know EVERY detail about their past; what I'm saying is that, with all of the opportunities they had to LEARN about that era, both prior to and during the show, it's stupid to have the writers try and convince us that they know far less about their own history than they logically WOULD have. Yeah, we might not remember the precise date of the signing of the Declaration, or what flavor of potato salad George Washington ate before leading the final charge against the British, but for the most part, all of the relevant information is left relatively intact, and the battle between the Ark and the Nemesis WAS a big point in the Great War; they should've been able to remember the Decepticons boarding the Ark, since without that detail, how the Great War resurged on Earth would've been incomplete, and even the average person in the US can rattle off at least a few of the operations the US engaged in during World War II. It doesn't have to be PERFECT recall, but with all that evidence and opportunities to fill in the missing gaps, there's no way they should be THAT ignorant of their own histories, I'm sorry.

You're using conjecture on the vague descriptor of "Decepticon" in my post, and making it look like I'm saying the Maximals thought Rampage was Starscream. That's...not what I said at all, and in fact, it's your own fault because you're assuming Rampage/Protoform X was a Decepticon to begin with. (Hint: He wasn't!)

Whatever, why are we arguing about BW? It was a decent show, but it's thirteen years past now. Nobody gives a shit anymore. And the G1 continuities that it originally drew from are long since outdated and useless now.

SynjoDeonecros wrote:We saw in the flashback of Protoform X's retrieval and sealing in the stasis pod that Optimus, Rhinox, AND Rattrap was there, meaning they would have ALL had to be privy to Protoform X's creation,

We're never actually shown if Rattrap knew anything beyond his shadow restraining Protoform X. So for all we know, he may not have actually in the loop on Protoform X's creation. Especially given Rattrap's big mouth and tendency to complain, the less they tell him the better. Only Rhinox and Optimus give any clear indication they knew what Protoform X was.

He didn't NEED to keep the secrecy of X during the time Starscream showed up, and - in fact - his knowledge of X and X's ties to Starscream would've HELPED, at the time.

How exactly would knowing about X help fight Starscream? Just because both have seemingly indestructible sparks doesn't mean the same methods would work on each of them. X is incredibility powerful, destructive and homicidal while Starscream's tactics are centered around subterfuge and betrayal. They are as different as you can get and as such it would take different tactics to defeat each of them. And if there was no need for secrecy, why was it that Primal only chose to share the story of the Axalon's dark secret when they had found X's pod and believed he was dead? Seems to me that he was trying to keep that a secret up until he felt it was no longer relevant with X's apparent death.

And, while I can believe he was put in a need-to-know basis on Starscream's info, he would've had to be told SOMETHING about the guy, to help prepare him and his crew for the possibility of X escaping; any information given about Starscream's past, especially about how to deal with his indestructible spark (like in Starscream's Ghost or Ghost in the Machine) would've been a huge asset to them.

Again, I really don't see any reason for Primal to be given much of any information on Starscream. Dealing with a bodyless spark that can jump into others isn't the same as dealing with a spark that is in a body, let alone one as powerful as Protoform X turned out to be. If anything, Primal probably would have only been briefed on how Depthcharge managed to capture X in the first place. There wouldn't really be any need to tell Primal more on Starscream as long as they had tactics that worked to capture X.

SynjoDeonecros wrote:the battle between the Ark and the Nemesis WAS a big point in the Great War; they should've been able to remember the Decepticons boarding the Ark, since without that detail, how the Great War resurged on Earth would've been incomplete, and even the average person in the US can rattle off at least a few of the operations the US engaged in during World War II. It doesn't have to be PERFECT recall, but with all that evidence and opportunities to fill in the missing gaps, there's no way they should be THAT ignorant of their own histories, I'm sorry.

Did they really say they didn't know the Decepticons boarded the Ark? All they really say is "The Nemesis shot down the Ark". Which is erroneous, sure, but I can kinda see where they would get that. They probably just remembered seeing some history tracks where it said the Ark and Nemesis were involved in a firefight and then crashed to Earth, so they just said the first thing along those lines that came to mind.

Really, they at least knew what the Ark and Nemesis were, and what it meant that they were on Earth. EXACTLY how the ships got there is a detail comparable to your potato salad anecdote, frankly. Hey, maybe some BW characters watched the G1 cartoon, and some read the Comics, and that's why no one was sure exactly what happened.

I don't think the characters are as ignorant about their past as you're making them out to be. Maybe they didn't know the exact details of Starscream's involvement in G1, or which Big Bad killed him, but they could at least go "Oh, Starscream? Didn't we read about him in history class? The guy who wouldn't die?"

Frankly, Starscream in 'Possession' is a pretty good indicator that some of the G1 guys who were around would lie about what happened during the Great War.

Ravage totally talked in MTMTE.

BWprowl wrote:

SynjoDeonecros wrote:the battle between the Ark and the Nemesis WAS a big point in the Great War; they should've been able to remember the Decepticons boarding the Ark, since without that detail, how the Great War resurged on Earth would've been incomplete, and even the average person in the US can rattle off at least a few of the operations the US engaged in during World War II. It doesn't have to be PERFECT recall, but with all that evidence and opportunities to fill in the missing gaps, there's no way they should be THAT ignorant of their own histories, I'm sorry.

Did they really say they didn't know the Decepticons boarded the Ark? All they really say is "The Nemesis shot down the Ark". Which is erroneous, sure, but I can kinda see where they would get that. They probably just remembered seeing some history tracks where it said the Ark and Nemesis were involved in a firefight and then crashed to Earth, so they just said the first thing along those lines that came to mind.

Really, they at least knew what the Ark and Nemesis were, and what it meant that they were on Earth. EXACTLY how the ships got there is a detail comparable to your potato salad anecdote, frankly. Hey, maybe some BW characters watched the G1 cartoon, and some read the Comics, and that's why no one was sure exactly what happened.

I don't think the characters are as ignorant about their past as you're making them out to be. Maybe they didn't know the exact details of Starscream's involvement in G1, or which Big Bad killed him, but they could at least go "Oh, Starscream? Didn't we read about him in history class? The guy who wouldn't die?"

Frankly, Starscream in 'Possession' is a pretty good indicator that some of the G1 guys who were around would lie about what happened during the Great War.

Ravage totally talked in MTMTE.

From my impression of how the show treated the Great War up until that point and afterward, they WERE meant to be THAT ignorant about their own history.

Starscream's spark was tumbling through the twists of time and space, so he probably wasn't as aware of the reformatting of the entire Transformer race; his lying was likely just to get into good graces with BW Megatron by demonstrating himself to be a loyal ally. That can't be indicative of the sentiment of ALL the surviving Decepticons in the Beast Era.

I'm just saying that, the simple fact that there ARE survivors of the war means that their history should NOT be as inaccurate and subject to so much mythology and speculation. Take Vietnam War vets; true, they may not be too eager to talk about the War, due to its horrors (and the fact that it's probably the biggest cause of wartime PTSD in soldiers than any other war), and their memory may be a bit fuzzy from old age, but they STILL exist as witnesses to that war, they STILL exist as a source of firsthand information on it; I used to live with one such veteran, and I knew I could come to him with my questions about the war, if need be. The Great War survivors are just that, except that, they're essentially IMMORTAL. Yes, we do know that the Maximal Elders were trying to keep as much info about the war as possible locked up, but they can't shut up ALL of the veterans, and the Predacons clearly have no such ban. And yes, the Decepticons COULD lie about the events to gain sympathy, but it would still be more accurate than the vague hearsays that the average Maximal/Predacon seems to be getting fed. So, while it may be hard to get the information out of them, it's clearly NOT impossible, so why hasn't anyone tried to do so?

It's interesting that you brought up Starscream, because I was curious why the Maximals didn't mention to Ravage upon his arrival that they met the Air Commander's spark earlier. I can just imagine the conversation:

Ravage: "You doubt my mission here, Optimus?"
Optimus: "We've had some bitter experience with Decepticons in the past, here."
Ravage: "Oh? Do tell."
Optimus: "You might remember him; name's Starscream."
Ravage: "Ah, yes, Megatron's little whipping boy. Tell me, did he attempt to get into the good graces of this Megatron?"
Optimus: "Yup, and got blasted for his treachery, too."
Ravage: "Then all is as it should be. I never liked that mech; never saw why my glorious leader saw fit to tolerate his ambition so much. It makes you wonder about a 'bot... (pause) I commend you for your handling of that situation, Optimus. I shall have to watch my back, while I'm here."
Optimus: "Yes, you should."

[quote]Yes, we do know that the Maximal Elders were trying to keep as much info about the war as possible locked up, but they can't shut up ALL of the veterans, and the Predacons clearly have no such ban.[/quote

Why *can't* they? There's a metric assload of Vietnam survivors, but we have no way of knowing exactly how many G1ers are even still alive today. Hell, by the later run of the G1 comics, half the guys we knew in '84 were dead--and double that if we're counting G2. If you can count the number of G1 Autobots and Decepticons who are still on Cybertron on two hands, then I don't see why they couldn't be forced into silence.

And you're still not acknowledging the possibility that anyone who *wouldn't* keep quiet about the true nature of the war was forcibly silenced. The Maximal Elders are played out to be some pretty shady fellows, so this wouldn't surprise me at all.