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I don't get the impression they are "Megatron's base", given the crowd we are shown all appear to be generic characters (and maybe Ruckus?) and they're marching to Tarn (Megatron's home town). The implication I get is that they're from all over Cybertron. Oh, and they say this is in "Termagax's name", not Megatron's.Dominic wrote:If the members of the movement are Megatron's base, it would make sense for him to play to them as a leader. This scenario is not impossibly far out of bounds.
And that's relevant how...? Creating intellectual property for much of what the movement does, as she claims, is not really the same thing as creating/leading the cause itself, nor is she actively participating in their protests.Elizabeth Warren (MA) has proudly identified as an inspiration for Occupy (which had violent elements).
The fact that these appear to be average citizens rather than say, all recognizable future Decepticons, along with the other reasons I pointed out, indicates to me that these are supposed to be regular citizens from all over Cybertron. There's nothing to indicate these are "Megatron's base". Megatron's base most likely is already in Tarn, where this protest is headed to.Dominic wrote:Why does the fact that Megatron's supporters seem "generic" undermine the idea that they are his base? Similarly, depending on the size of Megatron's district, they could be from a wide area. (I happen to live near a US Senator's mailing address. But, his district is state-wide, covering a wide range of geography.)
Such as? It's unusual for them to be evoking the name of someone else if we're to believe this is a cause Megatron started to push changes he wants to make.And, single-issue candidates (incumbent and otherwise) often evoke the name of a (usually dead) person or cause. The cause could be socialism, free-markets, smaller government, whatever.
That's still not the same thing as her personally and actively taking part in the Occupy movement.In the case of Liz Warren, she is using her association with Occupy to prove her "anti-business" cred. There were supporters of Occupy who saw Warren as an icon, or a leader of the movement. (And, there are others who saw her as too moderate.)
I don't get the sense Megatron is actively embracing violent protesters. He seemed rather indifferent about that fact actually. His only interest, as he pointed out to Orion, was that he wants change. He just doesn't care what lengths he has to go to to make those changes.In the comics, it looks like Megatron is the next step along that ladder, actively embracing violent protesters as his base. This would be like if a French official embraced the Yellow Vest protesters, and used them for political power, before attempting to seize power through the "other means" described by Clausewitz.
If Megatron is a Senator, his base is going to be more than a few-score characters from 1984-1991 (unless turnout on Cybertron is exceptionally low).The fact that these appear to be average citizens rather than say, all recognizable future Decepticons, along with the other reasons I pointed out, indicates to me that these are supposed to be regular citizens from all over Cybertron. There's nothing to indicate these are "Megatron's base". Megatron's base most likely is already in Tarn, where this protest is headed to.
There are older Republican voters who still venerate Reagan's "Morning in America" narrative. Similarly, older Democrats are nostalgic for the Kennedys and "Camelot". National candidates have evoked the names of dead Presidents to sell themselves and their image.Such as? It's unusual for them to be evoking the name of someone else if we're to believe this is a cause Megatron started to push changes he wants to make.
And, that would include embracing a potentially violent base......I don't get the sense Megatron is actively embracing violent protesters. He seemed rather indifferent about that fact actually. His only interest, as he pointed out to Orion, was that he wants change. He just doesn't care what lengths he has to go to to make those changes.
I never said it'd just be Decepticons from 1984-1991. My point was that if this is Megatron's "base", you'd expect to see some recognizable future Decepticons in the crowd. Instead, all we see is generics (and maybe one obscure character from 1988). That implies to me that these are't "Megatron's base" but are just regular citizens from all over that happen to believe in the same cause.Dominic wrote:If Megatron is a Senator, his base is going to be more than a few-score characters from 1984-1991 (unless turnout on Cybertron is exceptionally low).
You do realize Tarn a city-state right? It wouldn't make sense for Megatron's "district" to extend beyond Tarn, as that would be another city-state, another Senator's "district".Megatron's district likely includes Tarn, but extends far beyond it. (Again, I point to the Congressman that I nominally live near. We share a home town. But, their district goes far beyond that. I actually live pretty close to 3 members of Congress. Mind you, they spend their time in DC. But, you get the idea.)
How is that a similar comparison to what we're talking about here? I mean, how many PROTESTS do you see evoking Reagan or Kennedy's names? Old, nostalgic voters wishing things more more like the good ol' days they remember under a President they admired is hardly the same thing we're seeing here. And evoking the current President's name, the equivalent would be if the protesters in this were saying Megatron's name, not somebody else for reasons we aren't aware of yet.There are older Republican voters who still venerate Reagan's "Morning in America" narrative. Similarly, older Democrats are nostalgic for the Kennedys and "Camelot". National candidates have evoked the names of dead Presidents to sell themselves and their image.
Any candidate of either party (incumbent or otherwise) who mentions Trump is using him as a way to define themselves (favorably or otherwise) relative to the President. This happens often enough that voters are sick of hearing about Trump.
Being indifferent by far is not the same thing as actually embracing it. Embracing it would mean he'd be encouraging the violence.And, that would include embracing a potentially violent base......
I'm well aware of history and current events, thanks. And while, sure, IDW would draw some degree from it, I don't agree with your interpretation as it relates to this story. Many examples you've pointed out I don't see an actual correlation. You do know not everything in a story has to correspond to something in real life or be so topical, right? Remember who the target audience is. It's almost like this is for kids that don't really care about politics.Read some history or current events. It is almost like that is where IDW is drawing ideas from.
Let's definitely tread carefully around modern political figures. I think a generalized discussion of political systems to inform the discussion of what's going on with the politics of the comic is fine, but I wouldn't go much beyond that.Dominic wrote:*note: This post mentions President Trump as an example. This is not meant to be, nor to invite, a discussion of what anybody thinks of President Trump. If this thread degenerates in to a discussion about Trump, I advice moderators to delete it.
I guess the question is whether "base" refers specifically to Megatron's physical location (as in the district he represents) or the population that supports him. If it's the later, then it would make sense not to see future Decepticons unless there's some narrative reason for them to be there or if Cybertron's population is so ridiculously small that we only wind up seeing the same 60-100 characters over and over again. If there are millions of inhabitants of Cybertron, I expect to see characters other than those that we're familiar with.Sparky Prime wrote:I never said it'd just be Decepticons from 1984-1991. My point was that if this is Megatron's "base", you'd expect to see some recognizable future Decepticons in the crowd. Instead, all we see is generics (and maybe one obscure character from 1988). That implies to me that these are't "Megatron's base" but are just regular citizens from all over that happen to believe in the same cause.
Is it though? We still don't know the structure of the political system here. The UK comic established that Cybertron had city-states, with Iacon being ruled by a council, Tarn being ruled under Shockwave as a military dictator and Vos with Starscream as it's figurehead. The fact that this iteration has senators seems to ignore that set up. Megatron might be from Tarn, but he might not necessarily represent Tarn. Arnold Schwarzeneger Isn't from California bet he still managed to become Governor.Sparky Prime wrote:You do realize Tarn a city-state right? It wouldn't make sense for Megatron's "district" to extend beyond Tarn, as that would be another city-state, another Senator's "district".Megatron's district likely includes Tarn, but extends far beyond it. (Again, I point to the Congressman that I nominally live near. We share a home town. But, their district goes far beyond that. I actually live pretty close to 3 members of Congress. Mind you, they spend their time in DC. But, you get the idea.)
A "base", as we know the term, refers to voters of a given political party that (almost) always support their parties candidates. Which is why I keep putting the term in quotes myself, as I'm not so sure the term actually applies here. I mean, as far as we know, there are no political parties on Cybertron, so then, it couldn't apply the same way here. The way I look at it, Megatron's "base" would be the population that supported him becoming a Senator, which would therefore be limited to his "district". Assuming these Senators are elected and represent a given city-state in the first place. The "Ascenticon" protests on the other hand, I get the impression is much more widespread across Cybertron, hence why the crowd is made up of generics who likely come from all over Cybertron. And given we know they're headed to Tarn.Shockwave wrote:I guess the question is whether "base" refers specifically to Megatron's physical location (as in the district he represents) or the population that supports him. If it's the later, then it would make sense not to see future Decepticons unless there's some narrative reason for them to be there or if Cybertron's population is so ridiculously small that we only wind up seeing the same 60-100 characters over and over again. If there are millions of inhabitants of Cybertron, I expect to see characters other than those that we're familiar with.
Why would having Senators ignore that set up? In the previous IDW continuity, they established Cybertron has the city-states, with a Senate run government (until the Decepticons killed them). Although, in that version, the Senators had inherited their seats because they were the descendants of the Primal linage, or something like that. But given this version has characters like Orion Pax and Megatron as Senators, I think we can conclude that they are representatives of a particular city-state instead. You're right Megatron may not necessarily represent Tarn just because that's where he's from originally... But add that to the fact they point out this protest Megatron is heading up is also headed to Tarn. I think it'd only make sense Megatron is headed to his own turf, where his position would be the strongest.Is it though? We still don't know the structure of the political system here. The UK comic established that Cybertron had city-states, with Iacon being ruled by a council, Tarn being ruled under Shockwave as a military dictator and Vos with Starscream as it's figurehead. The fact that this iteration has senators seems to ignore that set up. Megatron might be from Tarn, but he might not necessarily represent Tarn. Arnold Schwarzeneger Isn't from California bet he still managed to become Governor.
Which is why I argued that there is no basis to assume their system of government is just like ours back on the first page of this discussion.Honestly, I think it's way too early to know any of these things for sure. I mean we've had ONE ISSUE that didn't really establish much.
Who knows how Cybertronian districts are drawn?You do realize Tarn a city-state right? It wouldn't make sense for Megatron's "district" to extend beyond Tarn, as that would be another city-state, another Senator's "district".
I regularly see DSA members (who are often rowdy twits) evoke Che Guevara (a dead guy from another country). And, those same people after to attach themselves to actual campaigns. And, we have seen candidates from both parties show reluctance to call out rowdy and violent elements among their supporters (especially when those rowdy elements over-lap with their base). When sitting officials say that a country's system is "irredeemable", or when then make oblique hints that tacitly endorse violence from supporters, they are embracing those elements.How is that a similar comparison to what we're talking about here? I mean, how many PROTESTS do you see evoking Reagan or Kennedy's names?
.......to support a Senator who is sympathetic to their ideology, and would welcome their support (political or Clausewtizian).The "Ascenticon" protests on the other hand, I get the impression is much more widespread across Cybertron, hence why the crowd is made up of generics who likely come from all over Cybertron. And given we know they're headed to Tarn.