TF Views

Dominic wrote:Is "GI Joe" really a tin mine though? Or, is it just poorly managed? (Neither of those possibilities rules out the other.)

Endless, cross-faction, vehicle recolours that use tooling from 3 decades ago is a choice made by the designers. And, yes, it is a generally dumb premise in story terms. (It sort of worked for Python Patrol. But, that was the exception.)

But, if SW can chug along, why not Joe? What is the problem keeping it from taking root in the market?

I think part of it is that GI Joe is a military line, based on the military. And that's only going to go so far as a toy line. I mean, other than articulation, what do kids get out of GI Joe that they don't get out of a pack of Army Men? Not much. The Vs. Cobra story and fantasy maybe but that's about it. And sometimes, given the social climate and general public attitude towards the military, that can affect sales too. TF is relatively isolated from that because it's all fantasy. It's about as real as Star Wars. It's science fiction and that's the appeal. Plus, I also think there's an inherent hard sell for toys of real things. And that's part of the problem too. I speak from experience on this one. One reason I never got into GI Joe until way late in the 80's was because I grew up in the military. Between a choice of "buy this thing that turns into a robot" vs. "buy this thing you see at least twice a day on the to and back from school", I'm picking the first one every time. Especially when I was a kid because for me play was all about escapism. The last thing I wanted was my toys reminding me of real life. And, even when I finally did get into GI Joe, it was mostly the Cobra stuff I liked because again, Sci-Fi (meaning that it was science fiction, not that Sci-Fi the character... you get what I mean). General public opinion and minimal escapism are the two big hurdles for GI Joe. Sometimes there's nothing Hasbro can do about either one.

I have to admit that, aside from being born in the 90s (which is a big thing), that's one of the reasons why GI Joe didn't appeal to me; why buy some dude with a missile when I can get a robot that turns into a plane. Or Spiderman. Or a power ranger?

And consider now that more and more of childrens' entertainment budgets are going to video games rather than toys, why would a kid want GI Joe when he can BE GI Joe in Call of Duty?

Almighty Unicron wrote:I have to admit that, aside from being born in the 90s (which is a big thing), that's one of the reasons why GI Joe didn't appeal to me; why buy some dude with a missile when I can get a robot that turns into a plane. Or Spiderman. Or a power ranger?

And consider now that more and more of childrens' entertainment budgets are going to video games rather than toys, why would a kid want GI Joe when he can BE GI Joe in Call of Duty?

Exactly. In fact, I've often wondered why Hasbro hasn't just had someone release GI Joe DLC skin pack for CoD. So that instead of fighting Nazis or Terrorists, they're fighting Cobra. And HISS tanks instead of Panzers or whatever. Call of Duty: GI Joe, that would be pretty cool.

But, by that Token, I don't know why Mattel doesn't have Blizzard reskin WoW into a Masters of the Universe MMO.

Also, for me there's another aspect of it being the military too: My Dad was in the military. Ok, so the GI Joes automechanic. Great, it's basically a figure of my dad. Not that I don't like my dad, he's an awesome guy, but I don't necessarily want an action figure of him. So here's Hasbro saying "For your escapism hobby time, here's a figure of your dad where you can simulate what he does for a living to put food on your table." Woop de doo. Yeah, still gonna go with the giant robot.

Shockwave wrote:

Almighty Unicron wrote:But, by that Token, I don't know why Mattel doesn't have Blizzard reskin WoW into a Masters of the Universe MMO.

Because, having worked there, I can tell you that Blizzard's staff is full of massive Hasbro fanboys. Fun fact: Flint Dillie regularly hangs out at the offices there despite not having an official job, he's just good friends with Chris Metzen. I'll never forgive him and his sister for ruining D&D, though.

Dom wrote:But, guess why I like Mutt and Junkyard?

"Hey kid! I'm a computer!"

No? Just me then?

Endless, cross-faction, vehicle recolours that use tooling from 3 decades ago is a choice made by the designers.

Well. I think right now it's actually a choice made by budget constraints. Just looking at the line, it's clear that there is about five dollars for any kind of new tooling. (Obviously this isn't counting figures like Gung Ho, who already have new moulds but haven't been used yet.) You think the designers (few of them as there likely are right now) don't want to release a dozen brand new tooled vehicles every year? Of course they do. But they don't have the budget or the shelf space to do it.

But, if SW can chug along, why not Joe? What is the problem keeping it from taking root in the market?

Star Wars has two things going for it: Deep rooted MAINSTREAM nostalgia, and kids. GI Joe is, in its ARAH configuration, some sort of fringe nostalgia act. TF reinvents itself literally every 2-4 years and is constantly pulling in new kids; even when GI Joe was floundering in the 2002 era (and not for lack of trying!) TF was the #1 or #2 boys toyline for literally years, because it was pumping out almost entirely new stuff, only looking back in the most superficial ways--you could count on a big red truck named Optimus Prime, and a big spiky bad guy named Megatron, and other than that, you were on your own. It's a little more straight cut now (In any given new incarnation, you can also expect a Bumblebee, a Starscream, a Ratchet, Soundwave, and probably an Ironhide or Jazz) but it largely follows that formula--big pillar named characters, and then interesting new fringe characters on the side to carry things.

Joe doesn't do that. When Joe tries to reboot, their team is almost always the same fucking guys. Duke, Scarlett, Snake Eyes, Roadblock, Flint, Lady Jaye, and fuckin' Tunnel Rat for some reason. And they will invariably fight Cobra Commander, Destro, Storm Shadow, Baroness, Mindbender, the Crimson Twins, and on and on and on and on it goes. If Joe wants to progress, it needs to cut the fat and truly create NEW characters, in a new, revamped setting that works PRIMARILY for kids, but also draws in adults.

Shocktrek wrote:So here's Hasbro saying "For your escapism hobby time, here's a figure of your dad where you can simulate what he does for a living to put food on your table." Woop de doo. Yeah, still gonna go with the giant robot.

Not all of us have dads in the military. I don't actually know a single person who's currently enlisted in the military, in fact. (I think one of my cousins once went into the National Guard or something to get college money, but this was nearing on 8 years ago.)

Being that I'm actually on a huge-ass GI Joe kick right now, I've been buying up a bunch of the vintage vehicles that Hasbro never rereleased (or are stupidly the same price as their vintage counterparts on the secondary market) and I can actually say that, as an older adult (25, compared to, say, an actual child, or teenager as I was when I started buying Joes circa 2003) I can absolutely understand the appeal, and I can understand the dichotomy and why someone would buy a Joe vehicle over a TF on a given day.

See, with TF, you buy a TF. Any TF, doesn't matter, let's go with something proven to work and say Generations Wheeljack. Fun toy. Cool foreign sports car altmode, some nice paintapps, his guns have multiple configurations so if you prefer him with shoulder guns, cool, but if you want him to have wrenches for hitting dudes with or fixin' dudes with, also cool. He has a neat headsculpt and transforming him is like solving a little puzzle every time, even if you know the solution, it's still fun.

But then...that's it. Wheeljack is just Wheeljack. He's self contained, and he will never be any more or less than that toy of Wheeljack. The best you can hope for is to put him on a shelf with other guys like him (like Bumblebee and Hound and Tracks and Mirage) or in a diorama, if you have the money to invest in good supplies to make a road or a Cybertronian backdrop and stuff.

GI Joes, meanwhile, are tiny little army dudes with reasonably big-assed vehicles. And I know, you're like, "Okay, I could have him ride in a tank, but does that tank turn into a robot?" No, but that tank does have working treads that are motorized, something I don't think ANY TF has ever had. You can put Steeler in the MOBAT and it can actually move under its own power. And then you can take the tow hook at the back of the MOBAT and attach the Mobile Missile System, or the HAL and have Grand Slam ride in it, or the Whirlwind and put Shipwreck on it, or something. The HISS tank doesn't just look cool and carry two dudes, but it can also tow the ASP or any other towing vehicle. And while you need props like roads and buildings or Cybertronian backdrops to have any sort of suspension of disbelief for Transformers, I can literally go to my back yard, go by the rocks and have a semi-convincing GI Joe diorama in 20 minutes.

Shocktrek loses the magic by growing up in a military family and on bases and stuff--he sees soldiers and he sees what they actually do. I don't, beyond what I see in movies and bad recruitment commercials with Godsmack playing. So my imagination isn't limited to what soldiers can actually do--to me the GI Joes can be equally as "superhuman" and interesting as, say, Daredevil, or Iron Man. (I specifically cite those and not anyone with actual powers like Superman or Thor or Hulk, mind.)


All that said: I don't have the answers on how to make GI Joe work for kids. I think a large revamp with some fresh faces is a step in the right direction. I think moving away from Cobra--blasphemy that it is--would help a lot. I think moving one step to the left of a full-blown military unit sanctioned by the US would definitely help--instead of being "the best of the Army" (or Navy or Air Force or whatever) they would be a privately-owned and operated contractor group, who occasionally does jobs for the US gov't (who could be shady as hell! That would be awesome!) but also does more generic "action/adventure" orientated missions, kinda similar to the old Adventure Team stuff, but without the specific name or ties to it. The idea is to make it all LESS OVERTLY military-based. Make it all very vague who or where exactly the orders are coming from sometimes, and focus the tone on something that's a lot less doom-and-gloom. I mean, Renegades was pretty good, but it was undeniably a "srs" serious, the same way TF Prime was, and I think RID15's success (or what success it's had so far) is a big pointer on what they should strive to in terms of tone. Renegades also was said to be like "GI Joe does the A-Team" but it never really felt like that, only because they were "on the run like the A-Team" but in the actual A-Team show, you never feel like they're on the run, they're just helping random people who are being attacked by terrorists or whatever.

Like, I want a GI Joe cartoon where they aren't afraid to poke fun at the idea of the PSAs. I want an entire episode where the government wants the GI Joes to participate in the PSAs as a marketing tool, and they all fucking hate it. That would be hilarious!

I have to admit that, aside from being born in the 90s (which is a big thing), that's one of the reasons why GI Joe didn't appeal to me; why buy some dude with a missile when I can get a robot that turns into a plane. Or Spiderman. Or a power ranger?

It is a question of priorities. One of the things I liked about Joe was that even the more powerful characters had a ceiling. Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow might be peak-human. But, they were not super human. Super humans (Serpentor or Cobra-La) were rare and notable.

Purely in terms of toys, "GI Joe" typically offered better articulation, better accessories and better detail than most lines.

And consider now that more and more of childrens' entertainment budgets are going to video games rather than toys, why would a kid want GI Joe when he can BE GI Joe in Call of Duty?

That is a different question though. In the scenario you describe, one media (games) crowds out another (toys). But, Joe does badly even among other toys.

Exactly. In fact, I've often wondered why Hasbro hasn't just had someone release GI Joe DLC skin pack for CoD. So that instead of fighting Nazis or Terrorists, they're fighting Cobra. And HISS tanks instead of Panzers or whatever. Call of Duty: GI Joe, that would be pretty cool.

Or, why not a top-down strategy game? Why not an RPG? ("Metal Gear" pioneered the military RPG genre years ago. It is still around.) The possiblities are endless. And, there is no reason that Hasbro could not have done these things.

"Hey kid! I'm a computer!"

No? Just me then?

The appeal of Doctor Smoov continues to elude me.

You think the designers (few of them as there likely are right now) don't want to release a dozen brand new tooled vehicles every year? Of course they do. But they don't have the budget or the shelf space to do it.

Fair point. But, given how old the vehicle moulds they use are (and that many of the vehicles cannot properly hold modern figures), the prices are too high.

And while you need props like roads and buildings or Cybertronian backdrops to have any sort of suspension of disbelief for Transformers, I can literally go to my back yard, go by the rocks and have a semi-convincing GI Joe diorama in 20 minutes.

Some of those pics looked really good by the way.

All that said: I don't have the answers on how to make GI Joe work for kids.

Making the Joes private contractors would be a worse idea than keeping them military. (Seriously, how well is a brand going to do if it associated with Blackwater or those idiot CIA contractors?) But, making the Joes something like SHIELD might be workable (and it would have precedent because of "Action Force".)

Similarly, why not have "GI Joe" piggy back on flavour of the week stuff until it finds more stable ground? For all of the 2015 product that has been revealed, there is not a single BAT figure. Why is Hasbro not making BAT figures to piggy-back on the likely robot craze following "Age of Ultron" (which they have a license for)?

Even if one considers pre-92 (and/or Hama) Joe to be all that matters, there are three variants of BAT to make modern toys of (mkI, mkII and the space BAT). (Hasbro now is just repainting the same mkI figure that was released 7 years ago.) That is not counting the mkIII and mkIV BAT figures from the last decade. Following that logic, why is Hasbro not planning to release mkV and higher? (The only BAT figure being released this year is a repaint of a TF figure that is being released in a convention exclusive set.)

This, like the lack of video games, is the sort of thing that Hasbro should be making a point to do.

Purely in terms of toys, "GI Joe" typically offered better articulation, better accessories and better detail than most lines.

Big point here. How many of us a few years ago were full-on into GI Joe because the POC line loaded guys with so many cool and unique accessories? Guys like Recondo and Low Light and their huge arsenals of cool stuff. You're not going to get that from Marvel Universe.

Why not an RPG? ("Metal Gear" pioneered the military RPG genre years ago. It is still around.)

I don't think you've ever actually played a Metal Gear game. "RPG" is the very single last thing I would classify them as.

The appeal of Doctor Smoov continues to elude me.

That's not who did those; the Fenslerfilm PSA dubs predate Smoov's terrible bullshit by damn near a decade. (That said, there are better ones than others. "Porkchop Sandwiches" and "They wake up and they're on fire!" are probably the best.)

(and that many of the vehicles cannot properly hold modern figures)

It's more than you'd think, and also, I recently discovered that many figures fit much better if you actually USE the torso hinge joint. 25th Snow Job fits just fine in my '85 Snowcat if I use the torso joint, and looks great doing it.

Some of those pics looked really good by the way.

Thanks! I figure if I have all these damn army guys, I might as well use them. (I wish I could find the pics I took in the creek that I neglected to upload, those were cool.)

Making the Joes private contractors would be a worse idea than keeping them military. (Seriously, how well is a brand going to do if it associated with Blackwater or those idiot CIA contractors?) But, making the Joes something like SHIELD might be workable (and it would have precedent because of "Action Force".)

Hm, you're right there, but I still think the "guys on the run" theme of Renegades isn't the right way to go either. In-universe, the Joe characters/team should be thought of as good guys, by the government and the general populace (if they are in the public eye at all).

Similarly, why not have "GI Joe" piggy back on flavour of the week stuff until it finds more stable ground? For all of the 2015 product that has been revealed, there is not a single BAT figure. Why is Hasbro not making BAT figures to piggy-back on the likely robot craze following "Age of Ultron" (which they have a license for)?

They just released an arctic BAT in last year's 50th line; I think using the same mould twice in a row is probably not a great idea. (Then again, we have Blowtorch again in this year's line...but at least some people were asking for it.)

Onslaught Six wrote:

Why not an RPG? ("Metal Gear" pioneered the military RPG genre years ago. It is still around.)

I don't think you've ever actually played a Metal Gear game. "RPG" is the very single last thing I would classify them as.

Maybe he means RTS? A Command & Conquer style GI Joe game would kick all kinds of ass.

RPGs take an insane amount of time to make, and they tend to only be well received with absolutely massive budgets. Meanwhile, military FPS shooters are popular and can be made in about a year, so even if the game doesn't do super well it can still get a huge ROI for the developer, publisher and rights-holder.

Plus, contemporary, non-fantasy RPGs do not sell well. The last game that came out that could fit that definition, Alpha Protocol by my good friends at Obsidian, was absolutely slammed and tanked hard. Unless you're planning to make Flint a paladin or make the Baroness into an asari, it probably won't grow the brand.

Metal Gear is also not an RTS.

The problem with doing Joe as an FPS is right there in the name--first person. If I play as Duke, the last thing I'm going to see for the entire game is Duke. There's a reason the TF games--which, WFC and FOC were hella successful--were third person shooters instead of first person.

The only way an FPS would work is if the player were exclusively playing as a new recruit character--Steel Brigade would fit nicely!--and are constantly surrounded by AI characters of the main dudes. There needs to be a LOT of character in this for it to work; we're talking (ironically enough) Metal Gear levels of characters talking to you, just doing it in a much less intrusive way.

I've said for years though that Metal Gear is the closest to a GI Joe game you'll ever get--soldiery dude fighting goofy para-supernatural terrorists with wack ass code names.