TF Procreation

The originals... ok, not exactly, but the original named "The TransFormers" anyway. Take THAT, Diaclone!
Generation 1, Generation 2 - Removable fists? Check. Unlicensed vehicle modes? Check. Kickass tape deck robot with transforming cassette minions? DOUBLE CHECK!!!
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BWprowl
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Re: TF Procreation

Post by BWprowl »

Dominic wrote:I recall Bob Forward saying at BC89 (which I attended) that he made the decision to kill Dinobot independent of Hasbro, (though they did clear it).
'89! Dang, Forward must've had this planned out, since he had it planned before Dinobot's toy was even made, or indeed, before the BW franchise was even out. And people accuse Hasbro of not taking time to put thought into these things. :roll:

Well, if you follow the logic of "Five Faces of Darkenss", (the Autobots were consumer goods....and there were few if any female Decepticons in the cartoon), then we have a whole new level of cringe-inducing. (I am uncomfortable even typing that.....)
Oh man, thanks for that one. Geez, thank god that origin is barely considered eligable for canon at this point, that's a very special kind of wrong introduced into the TF mythos.
Or, we have modern IDW (my personal favourite) which implies that Jhiaxus introduced the idea of gender differences...just because he wanted to see if he could.
You and me both, man. Arcee's new origin was the best thing Furman came up with under IDW. I actually kind of want them to make a Classics Arcee now!

One point: Sexual reproduction results in genetic diversity, which is necessary for a species to evolve, adapt, and change as the world around them goes on. Transformers, being robots and seemingly lacking the ability to sexually reproduce, would lack the ability to diversify their genes and evolve over time, hence 4 million years and everyone's pretty much the same. This could account for why they remain so stuck in their (comparitively) primitive, perpetually warring state, which Costa based pretty much his whole run on IDW around. Though, it does not account for the Cybertronians that apparently *have* evolved, like Jhiaxus's group, or those nutty Alternity guys.

On the other hand, going by the 'reincarnation' theory... Cybertronians are pretty much immortal (as mentioned earlier), so for the cycle of sparks leaving older bodies and being reborn into younger bodies to continue, *something* has to kill them regularly, making it awfully convenient, from a species-health point of view, that there's almost always a war going on.

Heh, now I want a Cybertronian geneticist going mad from the revelation. "Don't you all see?! Transformers KILL because it is the ONLY WAY FOR THE SPECIES TO SURVIVE!!"
Spoiler
If I ever end up writing a Transformers comic for IDW or whoever, I call dibs on this story.
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Shockwave
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Re: TF Procreation

Post by Shockwave »

I actually developed a theory that it would be possible for robotic lifeforms to reproduce sexually. Through the use of nanites. I actually got the idea from watching the G1 episode "Microbots" where they have to defend themselves from Megatron's "immune system". I mean, if micro robots are going to account for a robot's immune system then it would stand to reason that nanites could account for other things as well (like reproduction). Each TF's nanites would be programmed with traits specific to that particular Transformer. So these nanites would go from male to female and then the two sets of nanites would essentially construct a new TF with traits of both. In humans, this process takes nine months but, as Bender pointed out on Futurama, robots do everything faster so in TFs this process would only take nine minutes.

As for "God showing up every few minutes" yeah, but it's not like "God" shows up and tells the TFs "this is how everything works." It's more like "evil God shows up so good God has to come kick his ass." Lather, rinse, repeat.
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Dominic
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Re: TF Procreation

Post by Dominic »

The problem is that with robots, there would be easier ways.
As for "God showing up every few minutes" yeah, but it's not like "God" shows up and tells the TFs "this is how everything works." It's more like "evil God shows up so good God has to come kick his ass." Lather, rinse, repeat.
Simply the fact of god (or multiple gods) showing up at all removes much of the uncertainty that you mentioned earlier thoough.


Oh, and another method (from the US comics) involved making what we would now call forensic images of existing TFs and using those copies as templates for additional troops, as seen with the 1985 Autobots. In theory, any Autobot could have been an army builder a generation before KissWank. (Truth be told, this is one of my favourite methods for creating new characters.)


Dom
-figures this could be solved with "technology that is limited and that few recall exactly how to use/repair".
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Onslaught Six
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Re: TF Procreation

Post by Onslaught Six »

BWprowl wrote:On the other hand, going by the 'reincarnation' theory... Cybertronians are pretty much immortal (as mentioned earlier), so for the cycle of sparks leaving older bodies and being reborn into younger bodies to continue, *something* has to kill them regularly, making it awfully convenient, from a species-health point of view, that there's almost always a war going on.

Heh, now I want a Cybertronian geneticist going mad from the revelation. "Don't you all see?! Transformers KILL because it is the ONLY WAY FOR THE SPECIES TO SURVIVE!!"
Spoiler
If I ever end up writing a Transformers comic for IDW or whoever, I call dibs on this story.
We already had this discussion. In fact, we've taken it further--all Sparks are fragments of Primus, right? Primus is effectively dead. (Even when awakened in G1 Marvel, he had to use Xaaron as an avatar.) When a Transformer dies, the Spark returns to the AllSpark and thus Primus' collective conciousness.

In other words, Primus has no idea what's going on in the outside world until someone dies. The TFs are perpetually killing each other so Primus can stay updated on what's going on with the universe. Because Unicron is coming.
BWprowl wrote:The internet having this many different words to describe nerdy folks is akin to the whole eskimos/ice situation, I would presume.
People spend so much time worrying about whether a figure is "mint" or not that they never stop to consider other flavours.
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Mako Crab
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Re: TF Procreation

Post by Mako Crab »

Interesting take on the whole thing:
http://browse.deviantart.com/?qh=&secti ... n#/d3kebgs

I'm going to copy and paste what this guy wrote about his picture. Seems like he put a lot of thought into it.

- - - - - - - -

Reproduction: Perhaps the most controversial of all of the required criteria among Transformers fans. Within the canon, Transformers have been established to have multiple means of producing new life. These include construced bodies and/or protoforms imbued with a Spark (from The Matrix, Vector Sigma, the Allspark, etc.), budding, and even evidence of sexual reproduction through the union of male and female.

Many fans believe that "because Transformers are 'robots', they cannot reproduce, they cannot mate and bear offspring, they have to be built, just like Earth robots." What these fans fail to take into account, it that Transformers are not Earth robots, and not limited by our current level of robotic technology. They are living organisms, bound by the laws of biology. Their bodies are made up of self-replicating nanomachine cells containing cybernetic DNA. They're male and female, they seek out mates among the opposite sex, they even marry, and have been shown, in various canon sources, to have children from these unions.

It was only Marvel comics which ever established Transformers as genderless—with no females at all— and even there they could reproduce through the asexual process of budding. If, in the one continuity where they were indeed sexless, they could reproduce asexually, then, it stands to reason, that in all of the continuities where they are male and female, they can reproduce sexually. This is backed up by the numerous Transformer families we see in the canon. The only thing we never see is the actual act of mating. We don't even see Spike and Carly mate and yet we know Daniel was conceived through their union. There is no reason for it to be any different with Transformers, just because they're "robots". There is more evidence of Transformer sexual reproduction than there is human sexual reproduction within the canon.

This is my theory on the matter based upon what little we know in canon and the inherent limitations of their physiology and necessities of transformation, as well as real world biology:

The male reproductive system consists of a tank which produces and contains the male's cyber-spermatozoa. These contain a randomized mix of half of the male's genes as well as a small amount of Spark energy—the Spark is suffused throughout every cell in a Cybertronian's body (see MtMtE #8). Leading from this reservoir are tubing and pipes which connect to the main reproductive interface. Also connected to this main line are lines from the liquid waste receptacle similar to mammalian males, but likely taking the form of a retractable line and cables capped with a nozzle-like jack, not a phallus (See Bumblebee from the 2007 movie when he "lubricated" on Agent Simmons). This is all protected by the male's retractible "cod plate". Males constantly produce cyber-spermatozoa over the course of their adult lives.

The female reproductive system consists of a rigid ovoid reproductive/gestation chamber located in the lower abdomen and pelvic girdle between the hip mechanisms thus necessitating proportionately wider hips than males. At the top of this chamber are two ovarian nodes in which maturing cyber-ova develop before being released (usually one at a time) into the chamber for fertilization. At the bottom of the chamber is the interface port which is embedded in the seam of the two retractable "birth plates". These are all protected by the female's pelvic armor, which also has a seam running along the center-line that opens to facilitate interfacing or birth. There is no "vagina" and the gestation chamber does not expand during pregnancy. It is of a fixed size. The female only has a limited number of cyber-ova, limiting the number of offspring she can bear over the course of her reproductive life. The exact length and frequency of her fertility cycle, and whether it is a menstrual cycle, estrus cycle, or something else entirely is up for debate, as is whether she ceases to be fertile in her advanced years (as with Humans) or not (as with many other animals).

Power leads in the tip of the male interface jack and female interface port are extremely sensitive erogenous zones.

When interfacing, the male plugs his interface jack into the female's interface port, initiating an energy build-up culminating in the release of the male's cyber-spermatozoa directly into the female's reproductive chamber where they race to link with any potential mature cyber-ova that may have been released by the female's ovarian nodes into the chamber. Should one be present, one of the Cyber-spermatozoa merges with it, initiating gestation during which the genes and Spark energies within each, merge forming a complete zygote which develops within the gestation chamber over time into a new baby.

After gestation is complete, the female's pelvic armor opens, and the birth plates retract allowing the offspring to be removed from the gestation chamber. Given the fixed size of the female's gestation chamber her offspring would, by necessity be very small in relation to her. The infant would grow relatively quickly (though how quick has not been established) being nursed on an energon-rich "milk"—made up of metals and other minerals and nutrients dissolved in an energon solution—produced by the mother's Energomammary synthesizers—until fully weaned between the equivalent ages of human one to two year old, when they start eating "solid" foods.

The exact length of time for each stage of development—Gestation, infancy, toddler, childhood, pre-pubescence, adolescence, adulthood) is undetermined, but canon sources suggest it is significantly longer than that of humans, given that they live for millions, if not tens or hundreds of millions of years (the oldest known Transformers are the lesser gods known as the Original Thirteen Primes, including Alpha Trion and Vector Prime, who have lived for over ten billion years). As Optimus told Raf in TF Prime, Cybertronian life cycles are far longer than that of humans. How much longer is the question.

This is a diagram of the internal anatomy of male and female Cybertronians, detailing all of their major internal systems, including the reproductive systems, as I envision them.

------------------------

Some things I like about this guy's theory.

1. Yeah, it's more down and dirty, but spark mingling as a theory of reproduction seems to be too problematic. This gets the job done without having to quantify where sparks come from or how they get there. Leaves a bit of mystery for that.
2. Spark mingling would seem to indicate that 2 males or 2 females could conceive together, which again kind of defeats the purpose of having 2 sexes.
3. The rigid gestation chamber does away with imagery of big bellied, pregnant fembots.

I'm tempted to copy and paste the artists' comments from the reply section here too. The guy definitely did his research. Instead, I'd recommend that if you're interested, just read through the comments section on his pic. They have a discussion much like what we're doing here.
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Mako Crab
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Re: TF Procreation

Post by Mako Crab »

Dominic wrote: Or, we have modern IDW (my personal favourite) which implies that Jhiaxus introduced the idea of gender differences...just because he wanted to see if he could.
Wait . . . modern IDW G1 is your favorite take on G1 or modern IDW's take on female TFs is your favorite explanation? I was going to reply and then realized I wasn't sure what you meant.
Dom
- not going to get in to the question of who had a female beast mode....
I bet it wasn't SkyByte!
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Ursus mellifera
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Re: TF Procreation

Post by Ursus mellifera »

Mako Crab wrote:
Dom
- not going to get in to the question of who had a female beast mode....
I bet it wasn't SkyByte!
It's Waspinator, Inferno, and Tigatron for sure. There may be others.
Check it out, a honey bear! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinkajou
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Dominic
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Re: TF Procreation

Post by Dominic »

Interesting take on the whole thing:
tl:wrl (Too long. Will read later.)

Wait . . . modern IDW G1 is your favorite take on G1 or modern IDW's take on female TFs is your favorite explanation?
Little of both actually.

In this case, I was specifically talking about "explanation for female characters". But, I do (over-all) like IDW G1. Hell, even Jhiaxus and the dead Universe (which I strongly disliked at first) have grown on me despite being knock-offs from 40K.

I like pre-Primus Marvel G1 as well.



Dom
-there are actually lizards that can self-clone in real life....
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Re: TF Procreation

Post by Gomess »

Dominic wrote:I like pre-Primus Marvel G1 as well.
Budi-fuckin-ansky!!!
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Dominic
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Re: TF Procreation

Post by Dominic »

Well, early Budiansky, sure. The guy is incapable of pretending to care for more than a year or so.


Dom
-wants a Budiansky/Tokar edited TF book....
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