TF Views

Onslaught Six wrote:Maybe that was the intent of the original line, but expanded materials have made it pretty damn clear there were only ever two at any one time.

Ah, I wasn't aware of that.

Seriously, name a point where there are ever any two Sith at once, when one of them isn't assumed to be dead even though he isn't (Maul) or a complete secret (Starkiller).

Clone Wars, when you've got Dooku, Ventress, and Sideous. Plus Grievous, though I'm not entirely sure how much he counts.

Isn't Clone Wars only semi-canon? =/

Grievous is just a robot. He doesn't count.

...Who's Ventress? Ah, fuck Star Wars.

Normally, I would not say this. Fuck the novels. Fuck the comics. And, fuck everybody who had anything to do with cyborg Maul, including myself for even knowing about it.

The idea in the movies is that there are either no Sith or two at any given time. That is how Yoda and Windu knew that there is another Sith out there somewhere (certainly not attending the same funeral that they were) after Kenobi killed the Sith that Jin initially reported.

There is a difference between being a Sith and being "ready to turn". Anakin's corruption was slow. There are signs of it in Episode 2. Then, in Episode 3, he finally goes over. The same principle likely applies to Tyrannus. Dialogue in Episode 2 indicates that the council knows that Dooko/Tyrannus is disillusioned. Odds are, he was in a funk for a while before Maul died. And, then, the time was right for him to be recruited.

Ventriss was not a Sith as far as I know. She was just a crazy bald lady with two swords. The cyborg Grievous was built from similar tech as Vader, but was not even force sensiitive, unless there is some peripheral comic/novel that I do not know about.


Dom
-needs to stop talking about "Star Wars".

Onslaught Six wrote:...Who's Ventress? Ah, fuck Star Wars.

That gray, dual-lightsaber whirling chick from Clone Wars (I know you watched Clone Wars you were just talking about watching Clone Wars). The one Anakin chucks off a cliff. I dunno, her lightsabers were red, she was Count Dooku's apprentice...so, Sith? I dunno, I should point out at this point that I don't know terribly much about Star Wars.

Dominic wrote:The idea in the movies is that there are either no Sith or two at any given time.

So... how does that work with Sidious, Maul and Tyrannus?

This is literally the only thing I care about in Star Wars.

Grevious says to Obi-Wan that "I have been trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku". That doesn't necessarily imply that he's force sensitive (he certainly is never shown using any of the known Jedi/Sith powers) but it does explain how he's able to use a lightsaber.

From the movies themselves, we have to assume that the succession went somthing like this.

Sidious's master dies at some point before Episode 1. It is strongly implied that the Emperor/Sidious is the apprentice in the "Tragedy of Darth Plageus", and that Plageus is responsible for Anakin's birth and (if you go by some of the non-movie fluff) Maul's birth as well. (Fun fact: Ursus likes to think that the Emperor smothered Plageus with "his own teddy bear".)

Sidious recruits Maul shortly after becoming the dominant Sith. As shown in the movies, a master can outlive their apprentice. So, there is nothing to say that Maul was even the first apprentice that Sidious took. (Assuming that Plageous was responsible for Anakin's force birth, however, would limit the possible timeline for "pre-Episode 1" to less than a decade.)

Maul dies. Sidious recruits (a presumably already half-way there) Tyrannus.

Anakin has been heading for trouble for a while before Episode 3. From the point he kills Tyrannus, (partly at Sidious' urging), there cannot be more than a week or so when the apprentice slot is empty. And, Anakin is already in a bad place mentally. Even if we assume the scene where Anakin kneels in the office (after cutting off Windu's arm) is the formal and karmic beginning of his Sith hood, he was far from stable before that.

And, in Episode 5, we can assume that both Vader and the Emperor were thinking that Luke would make a good apprentice. And, in Episode 6, the Emperor was likely trying the old "outlive your apprentice" trick one last time. But, he did not count on the apprentice turning away from the Dark Side.

Dom
-signing off for the night.

BWprowl wrote:

Onslaught Six wrote:...Who's Ventress? Ah, fuck Star Wars.

That gray, dual-lightsaber whirling chick from Clone Wars (I know you watched Clone Wars you were just talking about watching Clone Wars). The one Anakin chucks off a cliff. I dunno, her lightsabers were red, she was Count Dooku's apprentice...so, Sith? I dunno, I should point out at this point that I don't know terribly much about Star Wars.

OH YEAH, HER. The Anakin-related parts of Clone Wars, I kind of...tuned out. Was way more interested in all the characters that probably weren't gonna get a focus (Mace Windu).

Dominic wrote:And, in Episode 5, we can assume that both Vader and the Emperor were thinking that Luke would make a good apprentice. And, in Episode 6, the Emperor was likely trying the old "outlive your apprentice" trick one last time. But, he did not count on the apprentice turning away from the Dark Side.

I think Sidious was transparently planning on offing Vader himself, who was becoming increasingly useless. That said, Palpatine and Vader both refer to Luke becoming their ally rather than directly training him--possibly they were intending on using him in the same way they used Greivous.

Side note: I think Greivous can be directly discounted from being an apprentice in any way due to his name. He's just General Greivous, not Darth Greivous or anything. (Am I spelling that right? Fuck his name.)

Dominic wrote:The idea in the movies is that there are either no Sith or two at any given time. That is how Yoda and Windu knew that there is another Sith out there somewhere (certainly not attending the same funeral that they were) after Kenobi killed the Sith that Jin initially reported.

I sort of agree and disagree with this--it seriously could be that Sith just "come in pairs" rather than there only ever being a set two at a time. That would still be how they would know there was at least one other Sith out there.

BWprowl wrote:Clone Wars, when you've got Dooku, Ventress, and Sideous. Plus Grievous, though I'm not entirely sure how much he counts.

Grevious wasn't a Sith, he was only trained to fight with lightsabers.

Ventress, I think called herself as a Sith but Dooku said she lacked what it takes to be a Sith - or something like that. At any rate, Wookiepedia calls her a 'Dark Acolyte' rather than a member of the Sith Order.

Gomess wrote:

Dominic wrote:The idea in the movies is that there are either no Sith or two at any given time.

So... how does that work with Sidious, Maul and Tyrannus?

Dooku didn't become Darth Tyranus until after the death of Darth Maul.

Onslaught Six wrote:That said, Palpatine and Vader both refer to Luke becoming their ally rather than directly training him--possibly they were intending on using him in the same way they used Greivous.

When Vader reveals he is Luke's father, he mentions completing Luke's training and that together they could destroy the Emperor and rule the galaxy as father and son. And the Emperor tells Luke to complete his training by killing his father, taking his place as apprentice.