TF Views

Sparky Prime wrote:

Shockwave wrote:Trying to write a story set in a specific time and place where a good story has already been established leaves a writer in a very tough predicament. A writer basically has to retcon their story into the existing one while simultaneously trying to explain why elements from their story weren't seen or heard in the original work.

I wouldn't say that's a case of continuity being a bad thing. Rather, that's a case of preserving continuity while wrapping up a loose end from it. What's wrong with that? Granted, it could potentially be difficult for the writer to pull off, but I thought Furman did a pretty good job of explaining it for the BW comics.

I would at least say that this is a case of preserving continuity being a bad thing. DW started a new G1 continuity with their comic. So did IDW. I don't see why IDW couldn't have just started a new BW continuity. Maybe this time both ships could have had stasis pods but they don't get blown into space allowing for more characters out the gate than the tv show. I don't understand why they felt that they had to preserve the continuity of the tv show rather than start a new one. I also feel that really tied Furman's hands and I think he did what he could with it, but just didn't pull it off well at all. I don't think it's a problem that he didn't have anything to say, it's that he got so wrapped up in saying "here's why this fits" as opposed to focusing on the story he was trying to tell.

Dominic wrote:More likely, Quesada simply did not *care*. One of the biggest problems with "One More Day" is that Marvel still wanted to keep a pretense of "it all all counts on 616". And, with Mary Jane showing up again, "One More Day" will be undone for a return to the status quo.....as if nothing had happened.

No, Quesada was clear on the point he cared about preserving the continuity. We are talking a couple decades worth of stories, and he didn't want to disrespect any of that work by just invalidating it. But like I said, he didn't seem to fully realize the impact of the changes being made. Marvel has since done a bit of backpedaling, but they are quite clear that this is now that status quo for Spidey. And Mary Jane returning to the story has nothing to do with returning to the previous status quo. I recall seeing just recently one of the writers commenting on that exact topic saying it was never their intent to do away with MJ's character, just the marriage.

But, when the back and forth is not only predictable, but pointless, there is a problem. Setting up a new status quo in order to tell a story with an actual idea that might not work otherwise is one thing. But, resetting a status quo just to "make things like they were", (Kevin Smith on "Green Arrow" comes to mind here), arguably defeats the purpose of having a continuous long-form story.

I didn't say it was a good thing. Some creators want to progress the story in new directions, while others seem to like holding them back at the same ol' stuff. What are you going to do?

I am going to say that JMS' original idea was worse. Making Spiderman, (Mr. Power and Responsibility), a deadbeat dad would have been a terrible idea.

A pregnancy Gwen kept secret from Peter who had absolutely no knowledge of it until the kids showed up years later makes him a deadbeat dad? Ye... no. Knowing Peter (as you called him "Mr. Power and Responsibility") he would have stepped up. Heck, even though they weren't his kids he wanted to help them because they were still the kids of the woman he loved.

And, Gwen was written, (withing the bounds of the times), as being a slut.

Yes and no... As it was written, it does make Gwen seem like a slut for sleeping with Norman. If she'd been with Peter though, I don't agree that it'd be the same story, even taking the "bounds of the times" into consideration. And you also have to take into consideration the modern audience this story was written for. I don't see that fans would have called Gwen a slut for sleeping with Peter when the two were so in love.

The problem is more that the best idea JMS could come up with involved backwriting a pregnancy for a character who had been dead nearly 3 decades at the time. *That* was his best idea, and Marvel let it go through, albeit with modification.

Who's saying that was the best idea he could come up with? It was just one story, among many he wrote for ASM. And even he has said he "disagree(s)" with how it turned out. I wonder if he had foreknowledge of what would have happened to his original idea if he'd even have done that story.

Shcokwave wrote:I would at least say that this is a case of preserving continuity being a bad thing. DW started a new G1 continuity with their comic. So did IDW.

Again, I don't agree that preserving a continuity is a bad thing. Really, if they'd just gone and created a new continuity for the BW comics as you suggest, that could still be considered preserving the original BW cartoon's continuity, because in effect they wouldn't even be touching that continuity. And as Dom mentioned, BW really only has the one continuity, being the one the cartoon established. G1 on the other-hand originally had two, between the original cartoon and comic. So it's somewhat easier to make a new G1 continuity for the sake of simplifying things. Not to mention, the BW cartoon is widely regarded as being the best Transformers show. It makes sense creators would try to expand on that success.

Sparky Prime wrote:Again, I don't agree that preserving a continuity is a bad thing. Really, if they'd just gone and created a new continuity for the BW comics as you suggest, that could still be considered preserving the original BW cartoon's continuity, because in effect they wouldn't even be touching that continuity. And as Dom mentioned, BW really only has the one continuity, being the one the cartoon established. G1 on the other-hand originally had two, between the original cartoon and comic. So it's somewhat easier to make a new G1 continuity for the sake of simplifying things. Not to mention, the BW cartoon is widely regarded as being the best Transformers show. It makes sense creators would try to expand on that success.

No no no, nice try, but starting a new continuity isn't the same as preserving the old one. Nice try at twisting my words, but you have UTTERLY FAILED!!! Ahem. Anyway, so what if there was only one continuity before that, IDW starting a new one wouldn't have had anything to do with it and at the end of the day we'd have gotten a better story out of it. Instead all we got was four issues of Simon Furman beating us over the head with the details of how and why it didn't interfere with the show that we didn't actually get a proper story out of it. And any way you slice that, it is a case of preserving continuity being a bad thing. Period. Besides, after spending the last 25 years getting a new continuity every year I've come to expect and in some cases welcome new continuities. Frankly I'd like to see a new BW one where all the characters are used. Which brings me to my other point that there's absolutely no reason they couldn't do it and it was retarded for them to try to shoehorn the comic into the show.

Shockwave wrote:Instead all we got was four issues of Simon Furman beating us over the head with the details of how and why it didn't interfere with the show that we didn't actually get a proper story out of it.

I can't agree with this. The Gathering gave us a very clear story, and it fit well around the events of the TV series without being hobbled by that requirement. The entire premise, that Magmatron would try to gather and convert all the protoforms in the stasis pods into his own private Predacon army, is a sound basis for the story and fits into the backstory of political unrest between the factions on Cybertron. That the Maximals, who are well aware that Magmatron is up to no good, should infiltrate his organization also makes sense. About the only thing that I can see a genuine objection to is the use of the time-displacement devices to avoid the Beast Wars TV characters, but even that is put to good use at the end of the story to allow Razorbeast to even the odds during his fight with Magmatron.

And any way you slice that, it is a case of preserving continuity being a bad thing.

The way I slice it, the Gathering makes a nice addition to existing Beast Wars continuity. If you think about it, one of the major reasons that the comic exists at all is because fans remember the Beast Wars cartoon fondly, and want to revisit that universe and those characters. To completely divorce the miniseries from what came before kind of defeats the purpose of creating it in the first place.

Period. Besides, after spending the last 25 years getting a new continuity every year I've come to expect and in some cases welcome new continuities. Frankly I'd like to see a new BW one where all the characters are used. Which brings me to my other point that there's absolutely no reason they couldn't do it and it was retarded for them to try to shoehorn the comic into the show.

If IDW were going to go that route and start a new Beast Wars series unconnected to the TV show, I'd expect a completely new premise that abandoned all use of prehistoric Earth, interference in the timeline of the universe, and a focus on main characters other than those used in the TV show. In other words, I would need to see a completely original premise. Otherwise, what we'd be getting would just be a cheap imitation of the TV show, detached from its continuity just so the writer could do his own thing.

A new continuity could work, and work well. But the current BW continuity is so well regarded and well thought out that any new one would be a real challenge to create, in my view. And also unnecessary.

Why do we get so many G1 continuities? There are a number of reasons.
- Quality of the originals, or lack of. Let's face it, the cartoon, as much as I enjoy it, doesn't contain the strongest or most sophisticated storytelling and characterization. It has great voice acting and is great fun, but doesn't really lend itself to the kind of storytelling that a modern audience would expect
- There were already two different divergent continuities from day one. The G1 cartoon and the Marvel comic ran at the same time. They already contradicted each other. And then there's the bio notes on the toy packages, which might or might not agree with the comic and cartoon.
- Geography and different markets - When the US cartoon ended, the Japanese cartoon continued on its way. So did the toyline. For many years, the American and Japanese markets did their own thing.
- new company - when Dreamwave restarted the comics during the 80s nostalgia a few years ago, they obviously couldn't directly build on or follow any of the above continuities, even if they had wanted to. So they had no choice but to start up and go their own way. The same is true of IDW when they got the license, though in both of the above cases, the creative team no doubt wanted to do their own thing anyway.
- Live action movie has to appeal to a general audience - so they don't even bother with any existing storyline, but instead pick and choose from any and all that came before.

Very little of this applies to Beast Wars, with the exception of the different market producing BW2 and BWNeo. And I think even those are tangentially related to the North American BW cartoon, so it's still one continuity. I'm only broadly familiar with Japanese series, so someone may have to correct me on that. Regardless, the factors that have produced many G1 'universes' don't apply to Beast Wars.

But it's 'stupid.'

Beast Wars shouldn't be this big holy object that nobody can fuck with. If I'm IDW, and I want to write a story where a 50-foot-tall Optimus Primal and T-Rex Megatron fight in New York City in 1996, I should be able to do that.

If you think about it, one of the major reasons that the comic exists at all is because fans remember the Beast Wars cartoon fondly, and want to revisit that universe and those characters.

And *that's* my problem with trying to weave it with the existing continuity the way they did. If they wanted to revisit that universe and those characters, then *write new stories with those guys.* One could easily write four or six simple issues of Primal Fighting Megatron On Prehistoric Earth and they could drop in lines of dialogue to imply between which episodes these comics happen. *Instead,* we got a bunch of characters, who were only related by the fact that they were stasis pods, hanging out on prehistoric Earth for no reason relevant to their actual fighting, and occasionally it'd be all "Look! It's Cheetor for two panels! Remember Cheetor?!"

The *worst* part is that The Ascending finally solidified that there *is* a seperate BW continuity to begin with--because there's also the Botcon comics, where Fractyl and Packrat hang around, and Apelinq shows up, and Shokaract does stupid stuff.

Onslaught Six wrote:But it's 'stupid.'

Well that was well thought-out. You've put me in my place.

Beast Wars shouldn't be this big holy object that nobody can fuck with. If I'm IDW, and I want to write a story where a 50-foot-tall Optimus Primal and T-Rex Megatron fight in New York City in 1996, I should be able to do that.

Who says it's untouchable? Nobody that I'm aware of. But the Beast Wars TV show is also a well-written piece of Transformers fiction that many fans hold in high regard. I think it's beyond dispute that most fans of Beast Wars want more stories set in that universe, not a total reboot. And clearly IDW was responding to fan interest in producing the product that they did. That they botched the execution in many fans' eyes doesn't change that.

And *that's* my problem with trying to weave it with the existing continuity the way they did. If they wanted to revisit that universe and those characters, then *write new stories with those guys.* One could easily write four or six simple issues of Primal Fighting Megatron On Prehistoric Earth and they could drop in lines of dialogue to imply between which episodes these comics happen. *Instead,* we got a bunch of characters, who were only related by the fact that they were stasis pods, hanging out on prehistoric Earth for no reason relevant to their actual fighting, and occasionally it'd be all "Look! It's Cheetor for two panels! Remember Cheetor?!"

I think that's a fair point.

The *worst* part is that The Ascending finally solidified that there *is* a seperate BW continuity to begin with--because there's also the Botcon comics, where Fractyl and Packrat hang around, and Apelinq shows up, and Shokaract does stupid stuff.

The Botcon comics were limited in distribution, so I'm not sure how much they matter. And they're tied into the TV continuity as well, unless I'm mistaken.

The Botcon comics were available to read to everybody on Botcon.com--in fact, they still are. So limited distribution is no excuse at all.

And, indeed, they did involve the cartoon continuity--they were designed to work within that framework, at least partially. The problem is that events in The Ascending directly contradict them, meaning in one BW continuity, the Botcon comics happened--and in another, The Gathering and The Ascending happened.

Who says it's untouchable? Nobody that I'm aware of.

Probably because you weren't trying to nail a BW fangirl for a while there.

My issue with the BW continuity is the same one I have with Trek continuity. It doesn't have to be preserved. And why would we need a completely separate concept? The only reason more characters weren't in the show is that the animators and writers didn't have the time or money to write and animate all those characters. In comic form you don't have that constraint, so why not create something new that builds off of and expands that original concept?

First off, (for those who did not hear), I am confirmed for four panels at this fall's NE Fan Experience (November 13-15, at the Courtyard Marriot in Boston). Yes, preparations will be taking some of my time.


Now, back on topic:

I don't see why IDW couldn't have just started a new BW continuity.

The problem with this is that "Beast Wars" had so much precedent for being the one and only consistent TF story that the idea of trying to reboot likely did not appeal to IDW. As others at this board have pointed out, "Beast Wars" is seen by many as being better than it actually was, just because other cartoons set the bar so low.

In effect, rebooting "Beast Wars" would be seen by many as messing with perfection.

What are you going to do?

The publishers could have consistent editorial directives. Say what you will about "Crisis on Infinite Earths", but DC was consistent, and firm. (Well, initially.) It did not matter what writers or title editors wanted. The higher-up editors made, and enforced decisions consistently.

Marvel is better than DC about this. But, both need to improve.

As for the Spider-marriange, lets check back in a year.

A pregnancy Gwen kept secret from Peter who had absolutely no knowledge of it until the kids showed up years later makes him a deadbeat dad?

In an idiomatic sense, it would have made Spiderman a deadbeat dad. The idea of Mr. Power and Responsibility not knowing he sired the kids would undermine the character.

No no no, nice try, but starting a new continuity isn't the same as preserving the old one. Nice try at twisting my words, but you have UTTERLY FAILED!!!

What Sparky is saying is that a new series would effectively insulate the old one, preserving it from changes in the newer comics.

- Quality of the originals, or lack of. Let's face it, the cartoon, as much as I enjoy it, doesn't contain the strongest or most sophisticated storytelling and characterization. It has great voice acting and is great fun, but doesn't really lend itself to the kind of storytelling that a modern audience would expect

It is more the consistency of the cartoon than its absolute quality. The cartoon had some great episodes. The writing and voice acting ranged from excellent to awful. But, the variability in quality makes it hard to use as a basis for anything now.

The *worst* part is that The Ascending finally solidified that there *is* a seperate BW continuity to begin with--because there's also the Botcon comics, where Fractyl and Packrat hang around, and Apelinq shows up, and Shokaract does stupid stuff.

Much of the 3H material was "Crisised" out with "Omega Point" though. And, "Universe" was largely "Crisised" out. (Think of Windrazor's fate as described in a recent text-story.) There are at least two "Beast War" continuities, but they both flow from and around the show.

Probably because you weren't trying to nail a BW fangirl for a while there.

A buddy of mine tried this in 2000. It was great. He was all about G1....right up until he realized what she wanted to hear. (His attempts failed, in case you were wondering.)


Dom
-notices we are talking about TF here, and comics in the AHM thread.

It's TFViews, do you really expect anything to stay on topic? It doesn't help that some of us haven't had the hardcore comic-buying experiences you had in the 90s, Dom--you 'saw' everything crumble and the Big Two go from decent to horrible. I've only seen it secondhand, because I grew up in the 90s, blissfully unaware of the industry's problems. (I think the first comic book I ever bought was part of the Venom On Trial arc.)

So yeah, it's not surprising that in a discussion about comic books--and their problems--the discussion will inevitably turn to TF comics. I should be more surprised that there isn't more manga discussion in here, since Prowl and I seem to be the only ones who are suckers enough to buy it, but I'm not. Perhaps I'll change that by reviewing some crap I have.