The Transformers (IDW, formerly "Robots in Disguise")

[Dominic]

That would likely go well.....

Which would be fine if the other thing was, y’know, good, and didn’t completely wipe/invalidate the good thing that came before it. If it had actually built off of the fake story it was telling for ten issues and shown that there would be lasting elements from that worked into the resolution, instead of just handwaving it all away in an instant of evil Megatron manipulation under the pretense of wanting us to be *surprised* by the big twist at the end that we didn’t see comin’.

How does the reveal about Bombshell wipe out everything that came before? Again, Prowl is only off the hook for things that happened after issue 4. You are acting like Barber is going to start a new arc next issue. This arc has at least two issues left, and it may not be resolved by then. Barber could easily pick up the "Prowl is a jerk, even if he was mind controlled" ball and it would not be redundant.

The Bumblebee/Metal Hawk/Starscream dynamic is going to change. But, it has not been cancelled out.

Aside from the faction lines being reset to stock spec at the end of the story, and clear-cut good guy Autobots and bad guy Decepticons, and evil macguffin mind control and villainous monologues about “This was all to give me the power I needed to make my new SUPER-DEVASTATOR, far more powerful than ever before!” yeah, it’s nothing like a bad 80’s cartoon.

I have not read issues 15 and 16 yet. Where did you find them a month or two in advance? Last I checked, this arc had upcoming issues left.

The Devastator thing is consistent with "Peace through tyranny."

Megatron has conflated himself with the planet as a whole and has the beginnings of a way to subvert the free-will of most, if not any, Cybertronian. Megatron is using Bombshell to make Prowl in to one of many drones.

It is for me. I have no desire to reward Barber’s creative bankruptcy by forking over four dollars next month to watch Ironhide and the cavalry ride in to save the good guys and chase Megatron’s goons off until next week’s episode.

So, you are saying Barber has fucked it all up, even though his run on the book is not over yet.

Were you really that stuck on getting a "good guy goes bad" story that you cannot accept that Barber was doing something else and that the thing he was doing might actually be good?

They can’t be followed up on because doing ANOTHER “Prowl goes off the deep end” storyline only ‘this time, we mean it, really’ would be goddamn redundant. It’d be like if they had another storyline about Superman dying right after ‘The Death and Return of Superman’ only he stayed dead this time. Okay, good for you, you actually did it, but what was the point of going through the whole thing twice?

Again, you are acting like the story is over. For all you know, the end of this arc could end with Prowl having to answer for what he has done in the past. Prowl could end up getting blamed for things that were not his fault. Maybe, this will be the event that turns Prowl around, because he will see what he almost became, and how close it would have been to what Megatron is. We do not know. Well, I do not know because I have not read the end of Barber's arc....

Starscream will be forced to crawl back with the Decepticons after he stupidly showed his hand to the Autobots and Neutrals (and the fact that he even had a hand to show still pisses me off. Who were his monologues about how he was actually sincere even supposed to be talking to, in that case?),

Uh, there are different degrees of nefarious. How about we give Barber a chance to explicate about this? And, when he does, how about we do not accuse him of pulling it out of his ass at the last minute?

Because this is the sort of story Barber wanted to tell, apparently.

And, this is really consistent with what we have seen Barber do....how? Seriously. Not giving a writer a chance at the beginning of their run is one thing. We all do this every time we do not pick up a first issue or that we drop a book early on. But, to actually revoke the chance we have been giving the writer, especially when they have done well thus far, right before the end of their run..... That makes little sense.

Seriously. I stayed with "Countdown" until the end. And, yeah, it was a bad comic. But, even then, I still cannot entirely discount the idea that "Countdown" was intentionally bad, bringing reader's hopes and expecations down right before "Final Crisis".

None of the blurred faction lines or concepts of Cybertronian democracy or shared authority matter anymore, it was all a big bad Decepticon plan from start to finish. It’ll be amazing if Bumblebee doesn’t use this event as a reason to ‘prove’ to the Neutrals that the Decepticons are a major threat and the Autobots have to stay in charge as the united ‘heroes’ of the story from now on.

How does this wipe all of that out? Prowl was still sleazy *before* the incident with Bombshell. Dirge still crossed faction lines, as did Starscream. If Wheeljack lives, he is another character who moved past the factions. Blurr runs a neutral bar.


Seriously. It is not over yet. Give Barber a chance. It really seems like you are bent out of shape because Barber did not go the way you were hoping/expecting.



Dom
-is Barber the new McCarthy?

[BWprowl]

How does the reveal about Bombshell wipe out everything that came before? Again, Prowl is only off the hook for things that happened after issue 4. You are acting like Barber is going to start a new arc next issue. This arc has at least two issues left, and it may not be resolved by then. Barber could easily pick up the "Prowl is a jerk, even if he was mind controlled" ball and it would not be redundant.

Prowl in issue 4 was in basically the same place he had been since AHM and LSotW. ‘Police Action’ had been the most dramatic of developments for him, seeming to set him on a cynical path to watching him go off the deep end here. Only none of that counts anymore, so he’s back to the spec he was in issue 4. Similarly the unrest that Prowl sowed that turned factions and the members within them against each other can all get handwaved as ‘It was all the Decepticons’ evil plan, so we just need to band together and fight them!’

The Bumblebee/Metal Hawk/Starscream dynamic is going to change. But, it has not been cancelled out.

Aside from Metalhawk becoming sympathetic to Bumblebee’s opinion on the state of things and Starscream getting kicked out because’s he confessed to being an evil schemer all along, sure, it hasn’t been cancelled out at all.

I have not read issues 15 and 16 yet. Where did you find them a month or two in advance? Last I checked, this arc had upcoming issues left.

Dude, can you seriously not tell where this is going? This is a “Green Lantern: Rebirth”-style fix-fic, except written by the same guy who changed everything in the first place. Prowl wasn’t really off the deep end, it was just mind control! The Decepticons didn’t have any real power struggles, they were just pretending in order to obfuscate Megatron’s plot! There was no real inherent Cybertronian conflict, it was just evil Decepticon radio waves! Sleep soundly in your beds, fans, knowing that good ol’ predictable Transformers will be back for adventures next month, with none of those scary new ideas to put you off! Sorry for tricking you for so long!

The Devastator thing is consistent with "Peace through tyranny."

Megatron has conflated himself with the planet as a whole and has the beginnings of a way to subvert the free-will of most, if not any, Cybertronian. Megatron is using Bombshell to make Prowl in to one of many drones.

And this has to do with the ideas of going too far for ‘heroic’ ideals, species-inherent conflict, and violent political instability, the ideas that Barber had presented as the focal points of this story before this so-called ‘plot twist’, how, exactly? Because when you say that all those things only happened because of evil bad guy mind-control, it kind of invalidates the time you spent presenting those ideas.

So, you are saying Barber has fucked it all up, even though his run on the book is not over yet.

Were you really that stuck on getting a "good guy goes bad" story that you cannot accept that Barber was doing something else and that the thing he was doing might actually be good?

I might download next month’s issue, but Barber very quickly lost my trust and my money with this one. I’m not nearly as interested in watching Ironhide and the good guys ride in as heroes at the last minute to chase off the bad guys and their latest evil super-gizmo.

Again, you are acting like the story is over. For all you know, the end of this arc could end with Prowl having to answer for what he has done in the past. Prowl could end up getting blamed for things that were not his fault. Maybe, this will be the event that turns Prowl around, because he will see what he almost became, and how close it would have been to what Megatron is. We do not know. Well, I do not know because I have not read the end of Barber's arc....

One clever irony I will concede is the idea that Bombshell effectively used Prowl in the same ways that Prowl used Kup. I don’t know if I want to chock that up to intention on Barber’s part though, since such an idea was NEVER touched upon throughout this arc, and a whole bunch of other ideas and concepts were explored instead, only to be suddenly whited-out with this issue.

Uh, there are different degrees of nefarious. How about we give Barber a chance to explicate about this? And, when he does, how about we do not accuse him of pulling it out of his ass at the last minute?

Yeah, because Prowl not actually being evil because of mind control and Starscream just randomly confessing to the good guys his intention to betray them at the last second so they’ll have a reason to kick him out totally don’t count as ass-pulls. You’re seriously buying into this crap?

And, this is really consistent with what we have seen Barber do....how? Seriously. Not giving a writer a chance at the beginning of their run is one thing. We all do this every time we do not pick up a first issue or that we drop a book early on. But, to actually revoke the chance we have been giving the writer, especially when they have done well thus far, right before the end of their run..... That makes little sense.

Barber took me for a ride. He showed that he had the talent to explore subversive themes and do interesting things with the book and its setting…then chose not to, to go back on it at the last minute. He showed that he thinks this sort of stock, cheesy, cartoon bullshit is more interesting than the intriguing thriller he’d crafted purely as a distraction, and that self-serving lack of taste greatly diminishes him as a writer in my eyes.

How does this wipe all of that out? Prowl was still sleazy *before* the incident with Bombshell. Dirge still crossed faction lines, as did Starscream. If Wheeljack lives, he is another character who moved past the factions. Blurr runs a neutral bar.

Yes, Prowl was sleazy, but it was in ways the characters and the setting understood, it was the status quo for him. All the development, the instances of him ‘crossing the line’ and doing something to actually advance those elements, to on his own actually move the concept and setting forward, has now been revealed as bunk, as not counting. Dirge didn’t cross faction lines so much as he stayed on the fringe of one faction, I hardly think he’ll be joining the Autobots. Starscream stupidly, stupidly implicated himself and now has to go right back to the Decepticons. Wheeljack never crossed faction lines, no idea where you’re seeing that. Blurr tried to move towards neutrality, but his distaste with the Autobots was entirely tied to actions by the mind-controlled Prowl, so that’s now invalidated, not to mention how he’s effected by the ‘surprising’ revelation that All Decepticons Have An Evil Plan.

Seriously. It is not over yet. Give Barber a chance. It really seems like you are bent out of shape because Barber did not go the way you were hoping/expecting.

That is exactly what’s happening. Because what I was hoping for, what I was expecting, was a story that didn’t suck.

Dom
-is Barber the new McCarthy?

No, because McCarthy had ideas. I’m starting to think the ‘ideas’ I saw in Barber’s writing were only there by accident, if all the development and subversive concepts he put up for all that time was only ever intended to be a façade.

[andersonh1]

I’d been built up to expect a really really good story, and then that got torched and we were given a shitty story instead. I don’t see what’s hard to understand about that.

I have to go back to something that Prowl/Bombshell said a few issues ago. "You know how far ahead I plan. This was always going to happen. Megatron was out there and he was going to come back." Or words to that effect.

That was just Bombshell playing his part of course, but the sentiment is true in a narrative sense. Megatron disappeared at the end of the Chaos arc, but he was always out there, and sooner or later his fate would have to be revealed and the consequences dealt with. This story or something like it was always in the cards, sooner or later, unless we wanted to have Ironhide just stumble across Megatron's corpse and say "Hey, he's dead. I guess that's that." Which could have happened, except I don't think anyone would buy an offscreen death for Megatron.

As for the social/faction-blurring storylines, not all that we've seen so far was contrived by Prowl/Bombshell. A lot of the politics and abandonment of the traditional Autobot/Decepticon lines happened organically. We haven't seen the last of it by a long shot. You're right that a lot of time and effort has been put into developing that situation, and Barber isn't likely to just drop it. I wouldn't drop the book just because one character's storyline hasn't turned out the way you thought it would and should. A lot of the things you liked about the book still apply, and will continue to apply going forward.

[Shockwave]

I haven't read the issue yet, but (I think Dom suggested this) I'm wondering if the Bombshell reveal will probably lead to Prowl's downfall. I think it will actually push Prowl's story further. With Prowl wondering why nobody knew he was mind controlled, he'll have to come to the realization that he was already behaving in a way that so close to Decepticon behavior that when he was taken over no one even blinked. "How could you not suspect anything?" Bumblebee: "Well Prowl, you're... Well you're actually just that much of a dick." "Oh." "Yeah." "Well 'Bee, thanks for that revelation, I think I'll just go home and rethink my life now. See ya." Or, the Bombshell thing could go even one step further, like Dom said with all of Prowl's past transgressions coming to light and Prowl actually winding up on trial having to defend himself and the things that happened pre-Bombshell. Either way, the fact that nobody even thought twice that he was being controlled is a major plot point that I could only see furthering Prowl's character development, not wiping it out. I mean, really, Prowl hasn't been controlled for long enough to undo absolutely everything. He still has a lot to answer for.

[BWprowl]

That was just Bombshell playing his part of course, but the sentiment is true in a narrative sense. Megatron disappeared at the end of the Chaos arc, but he was always out there, and sooner or later his fate would have to be revealed and the consequences dealt with. This story or something like it was always in the cards, sooner or later, unless we wanted to have Ironhide just stumble across Megatron's corpse and say "Hey, he's dead. I guess that's that." Which could have happened, except I don't think anyone would buy an offscreen death for Megatron.

We all knew Megatron was coming back, to the point that I thought his return a few issues ago was handled extremely well. His presence seemed intended to act as a catalyst for the already precarious situation we’d been presented with. I was perfectly fine with seeing him as the match, but to have it revealed that he was the keg and the gunpowder as well just comes across as spectacularly shallow.

As for the social/faction-blurring storylines, not all that we've seen so far was contrived by Prowl/Bombshell. A lot of the politics and abandonment of the traditional Autobot/Decepticon lines happened organically. We haven't seen the last of it by a long shot.

I can’t be so sure about that. Most of the faction lines eroding was due to stuff ‘Prowl’ did, which once made public will pretty much invalidate such shifts (not to mention that Prowl’s ‘policies’ that he’d acted upon while mind-controlled would no longer be relevant). As for the factions themselves, look at where this issue leaves us: with a bunch of Autobots ready to fight a bunch of Decepticons. Dirge and Swindle were quickly shooed away from the group of Autobots, and Starscream moronically ratted himself out, all so Barber could keep the faction lines nice and clean for the Big Fight next issue. There weren’t even any Decepticons who wandered out into the wilderness to be incorporated into Ironhide’s group, it’s all Good Guy Autobots who’ll be riding in to stop those sinister Decepticons.

You're right that a lot of time and effort has been put into developing that situation, and Barber isn't likely to just drop it. I wouldn't drop the book just because one character's storyline hasn't turned out the way you thought it would and should. A lot of the things you liked about the book still apply, and will continue to apply going forward.

As I’ve said though, it’s not just due to one character’s story (and frankly, the half-assed dismissal of Starscream’s role almost pissed me off more than what they pulled with Prowl). There’s no more faction-blurring alliance shifting, everyone’s been shuffled back into neat little Autobot and Decepticon groups for a big throwdown, any dissenting elements like Starscream and Prowl have been dismissed in the cheapest ways possible, they flat-out stated that they don’t care about the election subplot anymore, and the whole book has abruptly shifted gears to ‘Autobots save Cybertron from the Decepticons’. Nothing I liked about the book applies anymore.

What does revealing that Prowl was mind-controlled even DO for the story? No, seriously, how does that contribute to the narrative or the ideas at all? As I’ve repeatedly said, it actually redacts a lot of concepts, taking the ideas of the book *backwards* with its introduction. Megatron could still have his big stupid plan about subjugating Cybertron under his new, more better-er super bad guy combiner and evil brain-waves had Prowl sided with him of his own volition, and as we’ve discussed it would have come across as a believable move on Prowl’s character anyway. Literally the only thing saying he was mind-controlled does is relieve people who couldn’t handle seeing an Autobot do Bad Things, and take a whole pile of the character’s development and potential along with it. This is on the level of a shitty ‘actually a Skrull’ retcon, and it was pulled by the guy who wrote all that stuff in the first place!

I mean shit, was Barber just making this up as he went along, or what?

[Dominic]

Prowl in issue 4 was in basically the same place he had been since AHM and LSotW. ‘Police Action’ had been the most dramatic of developments for him, seeming to set him on a cynical path to watching him go off the deep end here. Only none of that counts anymore, so he’s back to the spec he was in issue 4. Similarly the unrest that Prowl sowed that turned factions and the members within them against each other can all get handwaved as ‘It was all the Decepticons’ evil plan, so we just need to band together and fight them!’

Not quite. Prowl went from being cynical, to being idealistic (during Costa's run), to having his cynicism validated by Spike. After Spike, Prowl dialed it up considerably. Prowls actions in issues 1-3 show that he at least believed conflict was inevitable. And, his actions as a result actually fostered conflict.

And this has to do with the ideas of going too far for ‘heroic’ ideals, species-inherent conflict, and violent political instability, the ideas that Barber had presented as the focal points of this story before this so-called ‘plot twist’, how, exactly? Because when you say that all those things only happened because of evil bad guy mind-control, it kind of invalidates the time you spent presenting those ideas.

Compare Prowl and Megatron. Both started off with the best of intentions. Megatron became an all consuming monster on more than one level. Prowl was pretty well getting there *before* Bombshell zapped him. You think Barber might have some ideas there?

How hard was it for us and the other characters to notice that Prowl was under Decepticon control? That might be important. (How far gone was Prowl when Bombshell tagged him?)

Barber took me for a ride. He showed that he had the talent to explore subversive themes and do interesting things with the book and its setting…then chose not to, to go back on it at the last minute. He showed that he thinks this sort of stock, cheesy, cartoon bullshit is more interesting than the intriguing thriller he’d crafted purely as a distraction, and that self-serving lack of taste greatly diminishes him as a writer in my eyes.

Answer these questions. I am serious. I want direct answers.

Do you really think that Barber spend over a year building to a simple cliche? So you really think that he wrote over a year's worth of comics that we have been discussion for 19 pages and counting...just to deliver a point by numbers ending? Does that really make sense?

Do you think that Barber just pulled the last issue out of his ass because he realized that he could not actually follow up on issue 13? How much sense that that actually make?

And, do you really think that he spend over a year writing thought provoking comics that we could actually discuss simply to turn around and pull a "gotcha", pissing off readers on what is likely his first big job in comics? Does that scenario make sense?

not to mention that Prowl’s ‘policies’ that he’d acted upon while mind-controlled would no longer be relevant).

Most of Prowl's policies were in place *before* he was under Bombshell's control.

Showing how little changed about Prowl when he was mind controlled is hugely important to what Barber is writing.

any dissenting elements like Starscream and Prowl have been dismissed in the cheapest ways possible, they flat-out stated that they don’t care about the election subplot anymore,

None of those arcs have resolved. (It honestly soundsl ike you are looking for reasons to complain about this book, or trying to be first in line for when the "inevitable" problems arise.)

We might get elections, likely with Metalhawk winning.

Wheeljack is dead. But, he actively pushed against the ID chips and directly said that they had to move beyond factions.

We have no idea what will happen with Dirge and Starscream or Swindle.


Barber has earned enough respect and credibiilty that it is really not fair to flip and and condemn his work before his is actually done.


Dom
-completely serious about the highlighted questions.

[Shockwave]

(It honestly soundsl ike you are looking for reasons to complain about this book, or trying to be first in line for when the "inevitable" problems arise.)

I seem to recall a similar reaction to MTMTE...

Shockwave
-And those story arcs aren't resolved either.

[Dominic]

The high concept of "More than Meets the Eye" seems to be "aimless robots in space", which gives Roberts a chance to write about "Transformers doing stuff....in space". The whole thing feels very much like an excuse to canonize fanfic ideas, right up to the shipping.

Barber, on the other hand, has managed to write with some insight about political and social stuff (I am tired). He has more credibility in my eyes than Roberts.


Dom
-was really put off by the space robot shipping.

[Shockwave]

There's a part of me that's going to laugh my ass off if it turns out that MTMTE had this uber high concept pay off after all the "robots doing stuff" and RID turns out to be one big "PSYCH!!" when we all thought so confidently that it would go the other way.

[Onslaught Six]

(It honestly soundsl ike you are looking for reasons to complain about this book, or trying to be first in line for when the "inevitable" problems arise.)

I seem to recall a similar reaction to MTMTE...

Shockwave
-And those story arcs aren't resolved either.

Snap!


Prowl, I understand. You feel like you've been betrayed, and reading the summaries, I get a little squicky-feeling about it too. (I haven't read the issue yet.) I want to see what 15 does.