TF Views

I need to sit down and watch the movie at some point.

But, from what I have heard, McDuffie completely missed the mark on Luthor. This is not a question of foo-foo "getting the heart and feel" wrong. This is a question of McDuffie missing/ignoring a main point (that Luthor and the other scientist were likely the same guy), which fits in with Morrison's "full-spectrum" take on Superman and that Luthor was partly right about Superman creating a moral hazard that kept humanity back, which was kind of a thing in "All Star Superman".

(McDuffie had some good work to his credit. But, even some of his fans admitted he missed point with Luthor in "All Star Superman".)



And, I looked over "Age of Ultron" #10 again. Here are my notes on the big (though not entirely clear or articulated) changes shown in issue 10. (Issue 10 also includes some changes that were made/declared by Marvel before "Age of Ultron" started.) And, for the record, the changes are not so much made or shown as they are strongly implied by the art over the course of several pages that look to have been swiped from "Infinite Crisis".

I am not the biggest fan of Johns. But, he did a good job of making it clear that things had changed and making the end results of the reboot clear in both "Infinite Crisis" and "Flash Point". "Age of Ultron" was a drawn out "Avengers" story that promised "big changes" and ended up being an all-purpose post and pre-hoc excuse for Marvel to edit by decree as they go. (In other words, if Marvel follows through, they will be on a level with pre-Crisis DC.) Imagine Superboy/man Prime's "retcon punch" being the end goal of "Infinite Crisis", rather than a quick McGuffin to move a few pieces around before the main story and resulting edits.

Okay, here is what I have: The main theme here is that certain events/characters and settings are not officially out of context with 616 Marvel, being either stricken from the record entirely or being isolated timelines. (I would have checked CBR and compared notes. But, their "Age of Ultron" thread seems to have degenerated in to people being shocked about how bad it was and being even more shocked that somebody could have read it and not been shocked at how awful it was. At least one Bendis fan is agreeing that "Age of Ultron" was terrible.)

-Wolverine: His past and future are largely wiped clean. From what I can see, 90s "blue mask" (aka "no-nose") Wolverine is gone. "Old Man Logan" is gone, as is the Claremont era "Days of Future Past". There is also some other stuff that is gone, but I cannot place it by the art.

-Iron Man: Hey, it looks like Marvel is officially striking Arno Stark, the Iron Man of 2020. This is not suprising at all. (It looks like the recent compilation of Iron Man 2020 appearances was a sort of "good bye" for the character. It also look's like the Jim Lee "Heroes Reborn" and the Busiek relaunch from the 90s are also out. If am reading it right, the grey MKI armour is being tossed?!? There are also two iterations of the armour that I do not recognize. (Arno Stark's presence in the relevant panel is kind of my "key" in assuming that the blurred background images are meant to show what is being extirpated from Marvel's history.)

-The Guardians of the Galaxy (Starlord, Groot, Rocket and what I am thinking is Gamora) are front and center in a panel that features Nova (Ryder) along with Thanos and Mar-Vell. The Guardians recently got a Bendis-written revision by decree. (I am not sure why Drax was missing though.) Ryder's death in "Annihilation" cleared the board for a new Nova, and was being semi-ignored. Apparently, now Ryder never died because he was never Nova. On a similar note, it was known since earlier this year (if not before) that the Starlin era Thanos (and by extension Mar-Vell and Warlock) content was being over-written. Apparently, "Age of Ultron is the explanation.

-Hank Pym: I am not as familiar with the character as I am with others. (Scourge might be able to sort this out.) Pym fighting a tentacled monster, Pym fighting a snake and some guy in a tailed coat (maybe the Ringmaster from the Circus of Crime) and Pym standing there in a coat with some other characters.....

-Mile Morales is shown in the middle of a panel surrounded by blurred half-strength images of Spider-Man 2099, a Squadron Supreme (Nighthawk looks off, but that might be a stylistic decision by the writer, I dunno), a zombie Spider-Man, Galactus and a star spangled barbarian that I recognize but cannot recall the name of. Given that everything I can recognize in this panel is from an established alternate timeline, I am guessing that this panel is meant to set up for "Hunger" more than anything else.

-Something from what looks like pre-Claremont "X-Men" (blue beast, long haired Angel, along side a cheerful Cyclops and Ice Man, Jean may or may not be obscured) is out. That Michelinie era "Doom and Iron Man go to the time of King Arthur" story looks to be out. These changes are hardly substantial.

-Something with Bishop (early to mid 90s control art) and some long haired guy. I cannot tell if it is meant to be the same images. But, there are clearly people being hung from a tree behind Bishop, and what looks to be a sick/injured Spider-Man staggering off across a field.


Granted, even the relatively minor changes described above could have significant butter-fly effects in context. But, in real terms, Marvel has not really made anything clear. And, given the "seat of the pants and pulled out of the ass" editing style of modern comics. I have little reason to think that Marvel has any long term plan to articulate.


-Descriptive Dom.....

I read All-Star Supes (a pity about the abbreviation on that one), then watched the movie, and I greatly preferred the comic. I can understand where some people are coming from about the pacing in the second half once he gets to Bizarro world and makes his way back, but I actually liked it, since it let a decent amount of time pass and made for a good transition to when those other Kryptonians show up (whereas in the movie it's basically "I'm gonna leave for a while so plot can happen while I'm away now I'm back OH LOOK WHAT WAS FACILITATED"). I don't know, I liked the more deliberate, event-by-event pacing of the book, to the point that I'm not really sure how well that format actually translates to a movie. The movie, I felt, was...competent at getting the point of the book across, but... okay, you know how in you sophomore year of high school, they have you write essays on the points of stuff like Lord of the Flies or The Scarlet Letter or something? So you spend time in class analyzing what the stories are all about, and you put that down on your page, so you're effectively *saying* what you know the story's about and outlining what's been given to you, but you don't actually comprehend all of it yourself, it's just...there. That's what the All-Star Superman movie felt like, like they had taken notes and outlined and gotten everything in the way they wanted to, but still didn't quite grasp what the story they were telling was actually *doing*, and there's a sense of shallowness, of going through the motions, as a result. And yes, I know there's a lot of intangibility to those criticisms, but that's how I feel about it anyway.

I also personally believe that some of the stuff they cut out (namely the Bizarro storyline and the Pa Kent part) was really important to the story and shouldn't have been so callously dismissed, even if the Bizarro story would have been really hard to effectively include in the film. Which goes back to my point about the story working better as a comic book than a movie.

But hey, it's at least better than the 'Flashpoint' movie is probably going to be.

I should review Superior Spider-Man later, but right now let me just say that the Pinkie Pie spotlight MLP comic that came out this week was great. The art was absolutely magnificent, and even a competently-written Pinkie is one of those things that's hard for me to hate. They'll finish out the Mane 6 with Applejack next month, and then the last issue is apparently going be the friggin' Cutie Mark Crusaders, so, yeah... I'm really hoping this'll get extended the way the TMNT Micro-Series books have, and we'll see issues for Celestia (who has over time evolved into one of my favorites, for some reason), Luna, or even Trixie (holy shit, if Trixie got a Micro-Series issue, I might actually buy all the variant covers).

Oh, and I actually got GI Joe Issue 5 when it came out yesterday, got the last one they had! Which means I have to hope for back-issues of #4 to arrive next week, like they said they might, or just download it. Goddamn, I finally start following GI Joe comics, and they consistently sell out, stupid right-wing Fresno being the full-bore target audience for GI Joe...

BWprowl wrote: I also personally believe that some of the stuff they cut out (namely the Bizarro storyline and the Pa Kent part) was really important to the story and shouldn't have been so callously dismissed, even if the Bizarro story would have been really hard to effectively include in the film. Which goes back to my point about the story working better as a comic book than a movie.

They cut out Pa Kent and the Chronovore? Ah, what the hell......

But hey, it's at least better than the 'Flashpoint' movie is probably going to be.

I did not read "Flashpoint" (aside from the last issue). But, I have to wonder if "Flashpoint" the movie is going to set up for DC's animated movies to be rebranded in order to be consistent with their current comics.

Oh, and I actually got GI Joe Issue 5 when it came out yesterday, got the last one they had! Which means I have to hope for back-issues of #4 to arrive next week, like they said they might, or just download it. Goddamn, I finally start following GI Joe comics, and they consistently sell out, stupid right-wing Fresno being the full-bore target audience for GI Joe...

Why are you not reading "Cobra Files"?

Dominic wrote:I did not read "Flashpoint" (aside from the last issue). But, I have to wonder if "Flashpoint" the movie is going to set up for DC's animated movies to be rebranded in order to be consistent with their current comics.

Considering that DC's movies are all stand-alone adaptations and aren't even 'consistent' with each other, I can hardly see the point.

Why are you not reading "Cobra Files"?

I...am? Picked up Issue 3 yesterday, haven't gotten around to it yet, but I've like the previous two so far. Cool 'trust no one' story with a lot of harsh points about what people in organizations actually know and where their loyalties lie (I love how Joe and Cobra are almost treated more like rival corporations than opposing factions in a war). I also find it uncommonly amusing that, save for one dude being named 'Flint' and another being named 'Tomax', this hardly feels GI Joe-y at all and could easily pass for a non-branded espionage thriller book. You would certainly never guess by looking at it that it's based on a line of action figures.

Like I have said before, I am not even into "GI Joe" so much as I am reading "Cobra Files" at this point.

The fact that the book has little resemblance to the toys is a big part of why Joes have largely fallen off my radar. (Mind you, if Hasbro made toys that shared control art with the Fuso illustrated book, I would be all over them.)


-Dom's dreamin' on that one....

BWprowl wrote:The Superior Spider-Man #11-
This is the concept and ideas of ‘The Superior Spider-Man’ firing on all cylinders, and it’s definitely one of my favorite issues of the series. Seriously, if you’ve been mildly curious at all and just want to see what this series is all ‘about’, you could do worse than to check this one out.

I did, and it's all your fault. I've never bought a Spider Man book before.

Seriously, your reviews have made me curious about the book, as I mentioned before, so I finally bit the bullet and picked up issues 11 and 12 today, since 11 kicks off the current storyline. The concept reminds me a lot of Knightfall, with the hero being moved out of the way and replaced by a darker, more violent version of the character. Just like Jean-Paul Valley replaced Bruce Wayne as Batman for awhile, we have Doc Ock replacing Peter Parker as Spider Man. Of course, the completely different characters make the story play out differently, and there are numerous other subtle differences that make Superior Spider Man a much different type of story than Knightfall, even with the same basic premise. But it feels very familiar. Nothing wrong with that, it's a good concept for a story, and it hasn't been done very often as far as I know.

I have to say, Otto's over the top pompous villain dialogue and thoughts are hilarious as he chafes at having to be a mere mortal who does things like going to class and answering to a boss. That's probably the highlight of the issue for me, watching this super villain playing at being Spider-Man with his ego and arrogance still very much coming to the forefront. The plot is decent, and kept me interested since these are all largely new characters to me. I've read a little Spider-Man in the form of trade paperbacks from the local library, but that's about it. I had no idea that Jameson was mayor, or that the villain of the piece, the Spider Slayer, had killed his wife.

This is a fun comic. A lot more fun than just about all the New 52 titles that I tried, and the humor works because it comes from the character. I think I'll stick with it for awhile and see how this book plays out.

andersonh1 wrote:I did, and it's all your fault. I've never bought a Spider Man book before.

Seriously, your reviews have made me curious about the book, as I mentioned before, so I finally bit the bullet and picked up issues 11 and 12 today, since 11 kicks off the current storyline.

Ha ha, oh wow, I actually got a convert here!

Believe me, I feel you. I hadn't bought a Spider-Man book since I was a kid, and was largely turned off to the character, but the concept behind Superior was something I just couldn't ignore. That it's turned out so damn *interesting* was a great surprise about something I was initially reading purely for trainwreck value.

I have to say, Otto's over the top pompous villain dialogue and thoughts are hilarious as he chafes at having to be a mere mortal who does things like going to class and answering to a boss. That's probably the highlight of the issue for me, watching this super villain playing at being Spider-Man with his ego and arrogance still very much coming to the forefront.

Best part of that was in this week's issue, where Smythe actually *points out* that Otto's monologing like a super-villain, down to giving away his plan by doing so. It's great that all of Otto's 'villain tropes' are still in full effect even though he's Spider-Man now, and that they're actually a *plot point*.

The plot is decent, and kept me interested since these are all largely new characters to me. I've read a little Spider-Man in the form of trade paperbacks from the local library, but that's about it. I had no idea that Jameson was mayor, or that the villain of the piece, the Spider Slayer, had killed his wife.

I didn't know any of that either, but that's one thing the book did well: They establish this for you immediately and effectively. Jameson's on the page? People are calling him 'Mr. Mayor', so you know he's the mayor now. He brings up Alistair Smythe, the Spider-Slayer, and you go "Who's that?", they immediately tell you "He's a super-vilain who killed Jameson's wife". Hell, even Boomerang, Scorpion, and Vulture, who just had stuff happen to them a few issues ago, pop up early and go "We're here and we look like shit because crazy Spider-Man beat the tar out of us", so someone who's just coming in on this issue, like you, knows exactly what the score is. It's great.

This is a fun comic. A lot more fun than just about all the New 52 titles that I tried, and the humor works because it comes from the character. I think I'll stick with it for awhile and see how this book plays out.

I'm glad you're enjoying it so far. I'm generally surprised at how 'fun' the book feels, given that the concept and design of things would otherwise reek of mid-90's edginess.

Dominic wrote:I need to sit down and watch the movie at some point.

But, from what I have heard, McDuffie completely missed the mark on Luthor. This is not a question of foo-foo "getting the heart and feel" wrong. This is a question of McDuffie missing/ignoring a main point (that Luthor and the other scientist were likely the same guy), which fits in with Morrison's "full-spectrum" take on Superman and that Luthor was partly right about Superman creating a moral hazard that kept humanity back, which was kind of a thing in "All Star Superman".

(McDuffie had some good work to his credit. But, even some of his fans admitted he missed point with Luthor in "All Star Superman".)

McDuffie didn't miss anything, Luthor being/becoming Dr Quintum is outside the scope of the content on the page, you have to really stretch to get there, it's not implied by the author so much as inferred by the readers. There are intentional thematic similarities between the characters based on their roles as good and evil angels of science, but that doesn't mean the book says they're the same guy.

The book says that Superman is so important that the whole time Quintum is trying to clone him, bring him back in some way, the story ends on the "2" diamond shield logo vault door saying as much; and earlier in the story the time-travel confirms there will be later Supermen, so I don't think Morrison is arguing that Luthor is right about Supes holding back humanity, in fact humanity is accelerated in the series by Superman's presence, P.R.O.J.E.C.T. is proof of that.

BWp wrote:I read All-Star Supes (a pity about the abbreviation on that one), then watched the movie, and I greatly preferred the comic. I can understand where some people are coming from about the pacing in the second half once he gets to Bizarro world and makes his way back, but I actually liked it, since it let a decent amount of time pass and made for a good transition to when those other Kryptonians show up (whereas in the movie it's basically "I'm gonna leave for a while so plot can happen while I'm away now I'm back OH LOOK WHAT WAS FACILITATED"). I don't know, I liked the more deliberate, event-by-event pacing of the book, to the point that I'm not really sure how well that format actually translates to a movie. The movie, I felt, was...competent at getting the point of the book across, but... okay, you know how in you sophomore year of high school, they have you write essays on the points of stuff like Lord of the Flies or The Scarlet Letter or something? So you spend time in class analyzing what the stories are all about, and you put that down on your page, so you're effectively *saying* what you know the story's about and outlining what's been given to you, but you don't actually comprehend all of it yourself, it's just...there. That's what the All-Star Superman movie felt like, like they had taken notes and outlined and gotten everything in the way they wanted to, but still didn't quite grasp what the story they were telling was actually *doing*, and there's a sense of shallowness, of going through the motions, as a result. And yes, I know there's a lot of intangibility to those criticisms, but that's how I feel about it anyway.

I also personally believe that some of the stuff they cut out (namely the Bizarro storyline and the Pa Kent part) was really important to the story and shouldn't have been so callously dismissed, even if the Bizarro story would have been really hard to effectively include in the film. Which goes back to my point about the story working better as a comic book than a movie.

But hey, it's at least better than the 'Flashpoint' movie is probably going to be.

Ha! "ASS", not good to abbreviate this one.

The problem I have with the Bizarro world stuff is that it's nothing, it's a contrivance and shows no ingenuity, no skills, no heart, doesn't say anything about Superman - he's says a nice thing about Zibarro but basically ignores the suffering that person is going through, it takes 2 issues to get him out of there, and then everything else feels rushed. When I compare reading the Samson and Atlas story to the Kryptonian Astronauts are jerks story, it's like night and day - they're similar ideas yet one has time to breathe and say things while the other is just pushing through every idea like a freight train. Every event after Bizarro Home seems to me like there's not enough room for it to fully explain itself, live with itself, be itself, hang out and do what it's there to do the way the events previous did. A lot more plot wrap-up is needed in the last half of the series because there's so much time spent in issues 5-7 with the Bizarro storyline. The events of Kandor and Solaris and returning from death all feel spread thin, and the way Luthor's story ends is way shorter than I expected in the book.

I think I know what you mean about writing thematic reports that miss the flavor of the content, but the movie didn't feel that way to me at all, quite the opposite in fact, it felt like it kept the Superman trials and definition at the forefront damned well, even if it did cut away some of the smaller stuff and some of the stuff that really didn't have significant bearing on the overall tale. I certainly didn't feel the movie was shallow, it seemed very deep and powerful as it built up to that ending. Funny how 2 people can feel so differently about experiences, I don't doubt that's how you felt though. I didn't feel the Bizarro Home stuff worked at all in the comic, as counterpoint.

The Pa Kent story I agree could have been kept, that issue was something I agree the movie should have found a way to say, I forgot about that. The bizarro home stuff though, I see no value, and also I am a tad confused how Superman under the red sun is robbed of his powers yet when he returns to the oververse's yellow sun he's still suffering the same sun poisoning he started with, might the red sun not have negated it as it often does in previous comics from the silver age and such?

I can't imagine the Flashpoint movie being anything other than really bad.

Dom wrote:They cut out Pa Kent and the Chronovore? Ah, what the hell......

They didn't include it, I suspect because Warner Bros is so stupid they force these movies to a short 1hr 15min runtime, 3 episodes of a cartoon instead of 4. That storyline requires a LOT of confusing setup and confusing payoff to get to the emotional core of the story at the end, and I suspect it'd have taken at least another 15 minutes of screen time all by itself.

I did not read "Flashpoint" (aside from the last issue). But, I have to wonder if "Flashpoint" the movie is going to set up for DC's animated movies to be rebranded in order to be consistent with their current comics.

They've shown no sign of interest in big event comics being big events in their movie line, which isn't a singular universe.

I need to stop worrying about comics and get back to other stuff. But, damn, CBR is a good read today.

The "Age of Ultron" discussion has degenerated in to the guys arguing about how the book is bad....while agreeing it is bad. I am making myself not register there so I can join in.

The book says that Superman is so important that the whole time Quintum is trying to clone him, bring him back in some way, the story ends on the "2" diamond shield logo vault door saying as much; and earlier in the story the time-travel confirms there will be later Supermen, so I don't think Morrison is arguing that Luthor is right about Supes holding back humanity, in fact humanity is accelerated in the series by Superman's presence, P.R.O.J.E.C.T. is proof of that.

But, humanity's real progress is made *after* Superman leaves. People are aspiring to be like Superman. But, they progress and effort largely happen after Superman leaves at the end.



-Disengaging Dom.....

JediTricks wrote:

andersonh1 wrote:I don't think I've ever read more than the first two issues. The animated version is very good though.

You're the first person I've seen agree on that, I really liked the movie, that's why I bought the comic, a lot of folks said the movie was ok but cut too much from the book. I didn't feel that way when reading it, the book does a better job encompassing the entirety of Superman in the various comic ages, but doesn't really add anything of substance to the characters that the movie missed. The movie ending everyone talks about the impact being taken away, but the comics ending feels very much the same too-quick pacing, and in some ways quicker than the movie.

I saw the animated version, then read a few issues of the comic to compare, same as you. Maybe if I'd read and loved the comic first, I'd see it differently. Who knows?

Dominic wrote:I did not read "Flashpoint" (aside from the last issue). But, I have to wonder if "Flashpoint" the movie is going to set up for DC's animated movies to be rebranded in order to be consistent with their current comics.

That's what I figured. They want all product out there now to conform to the New 52 versions. I'm surprised every time they release another animated feature with the old Superman costume, for example, but the long turnaround time on animation probably explains it up to this point.

Look at the new DC displays in Target that promote Man of Steel. It's new art with the characters in their New 52 costumes, not the same old character art we've seen again and again. There's an animated commercial using the New 52 costumes as well. That doesn't necessarily mean DC is doing the same on their original movies, but I'll be surprised if DC hasn't directed Bruce Timm to conform the animated features to the new look.