TF Views

To the point where there was literally a scene of Anakin just sitting there thinking!

The scene where he is thinking of joining the Emperor to save Padme? That one is kind of important.

Then he FINALLY goes back to Dagobah and...Yoda's dying, and says his training is complete. What the hell, man?

Luke's mindset had changed. If nothing else, the fact that he actually came back (as he said he would) to finish what he began (unlike Vader), shows that he is not entirely his father's son.

"He hunted down the Jedi for years!" Which amounts to hacking off a half-dozen of them in one place, and that's it.

The movie is not going to show everything. And, really, Jedi hunts would have gotten tedious.

'Vaguely.' To the point where, as of Empire Strikes Back, Vader wasn't even planned to be Luke's father. And in ROTJ, Leia wasn't always going to be Luke's sister. (During the draft plans, Episodes 7-9 would have featured the Emperor and Luke searching the galaxy for his missing sister, alongside training the new Jedi order. Time and budget constraints basically forced Lucas to shove it all into the last movie, and cut the whole "Luke training the future Jedi" plot.)

Whaaaaat??!?!?!??? Do you have a source on this?

Onslaught Six wrote:You know, that's something I always thought was bullshit about ROTJ. (Almost typed ROTF there--yuck!) Luke leaves Yoda at the end of Empire and Yoda's all "WAIT YOUR TRAINING ISN'T DONE YET," and then apparently Luke just...hangs out between movies, getting a cool new outfit before he goes to kill Jabba. Then he FINALLY goes back to Dagobah and...Yoda's dying, and says his training is complete. What the hell, man?

Luke learned to and built his own lightsaber between movies... So it would seem he continued training on his own. Maybe Obi-Wan's ghost helped him?

Shockwave wrote:To call ANY of ROTJ filler is just flat out wrong. Every damn scene in the movie is wrapping up and resolving plot threads from the previous two. Episode III is the one that was largely filler.

Er... RotS resolves the plot threads from the first two movies in it's Trilogy and then sets up for events of the next Trilogy. I don't see how you can call it largely filler.

And, there is no open-mouth incest kissing in the prequels.

Yes, I was referring to the one of him contemplating joining the dark side. It was filler. He's going to be Darth Vader, we already know what choice he's going to make, watching sitting around moping about it for three minutes added nothing to the film. And, like Scourge, I wanted to see more of "Darth Vader". The guy in the armor. Things were implied in ANH that it was more of a gradual change to that rather than "got fucked up once and was immediately an evil cyborg". The prequels really should have been different. ANH and ESB both imply that Yoda and Obi Wan had a master/apprentice thing much like what is shown to happen on the Sith side where's there's paired groups of two (the afforementioned master and apprentice). Instead, we're shown that it's more like one ginormous Jedi academy where they all just learn from whoever and instead of seeing the master/apprentice relationship with Yoda and Obi Wan we get... Qui Gon Jinn? WTF? Obi Wan also states that he took Anakin as his apprentice because he thought he could do as well as Yoda as a master but instead it's shown more like it was forced onto him by the Jedi counsel. And, yes, the Jedi Hunt should have been more epic.

I mean, really the prequels should have gone more like this: Yoda and Obi-Wan find Anakin. Obi-Wan decides to train him as a Jedi while they fight in the Clone Wars (which as I understood from official context was supposed to be the entire galaxy fighting a bunch of clones that went insane. Or some shit like that). And maybe there could have been Yoda and Obi-Wan (or other various Jedi pairs) fighting Sidious and Darth Maul. And then, gradually bad shit happens to Anakin that causes him to constantly have to replace various parts with cybernetics until he finally is just so pissed off at stuff that he turns to evil. And that's when he and the Emperor hunt down the Jedi to extinction. Somewhere in there is the romance with Padme and she has to go into hiding after Anaking becomes Vader and then she dies shortly thereafter.

That's what really should have happened. Instead we got shit like wasting a god damned hour on those fucking pod races and Gungans flailing about like a race of assholes. And then we had to follow Boba Fett's origin for some reason. Like Seth McFarlane said "that's what happens when you sell the most action figures. Thanks a lot fanboys!" Then in Episod III, there's the afforementioned two minute Jedi slaughter, Padme dies at childbirth, and excuse me, but did the Separatists like Nute Gunray not fucking notice that Darth Vader was the same fucking guy they were trying to kill in an arena in the previous movie? And then boring ass Grevious.

Now don't get me wrong. After all that bitching, I really actually do like the prequel trilogy (and I do intend to see them in 3D) but they just don't fit with the original. Taken unto themselves, they're fine.

Shockwave
-There is no argument on Earth that will convince me the Padme debacle was intentional and not a huge glaring plothole.

Shockwave wrote:Yes, I was referring to the one of him contemplating joining the dark side. It was filler. He's going to be Darth Vader, we already know what choice he's going to make, watching sitting around moping about it for three minutes added nothing to the film.

That's not filler. That's an important moment where he's considering a life altering decision. It shows the inner turmoil he's going through. It's not something that should be skipped because we as the audience already know what he's going to choose. That would make it seem like it was an easy decision for him, when clearly by showing that scene, we know it wasn't.

Things were implied in ANH that it was more of a gradual change to that rather than "got fucked up once and was immediately an evil cyborg".

Before RotS came out I'd always heard he became a cyborg after he fell into a volcano... I don't recall anything in ANH implying otherwise.

ANH and ESB both imply that Yoda and Obi Wan had a master/apprentice thing much like what is shown to happen on the Sith side where's there's paired groups of two. Instead, we're shown that it's more like one ginormous Jedi academy where they all just learn from whoever and instead of seeing the master/apprentice relationship with Yoda and Obi Wan we get... Qui Gon Jinn?

The Jedi might have an academy but we see they don't just learn from whoever. Similar to the Sith, they pair up a Master and a Padawan learner for a majority of their training. The Jedi just don't restrict their numbers like the Sith's rule of two.

And after Qui Gon's death, we see Obi Wan often goes to Yoda for advice. Obi Wan might see Yoda as sort of a replacement Master for Qui Gon, especially once they are the only two known Jedi left alive after the purge. That and Yoda tells him at the end of RotS he has some training from him so he can commune with Qui Gon's spirit. Plus we find out Yoda trained Count Dooku who in turn trained Qui Gon, so Obi Wan's instruction is within the same line as Yoda's teaching.

Obi Wan also states that he took Anakin as his apprentice because he thought he could do as well as Yoda as a master but instead it's shown more like it was forced onto him by the Jedi counsel.

Remember, it was the Jedi Council that refused to let Anakin join when Qui Gon asked them. It was really Obi Wan forcing them to let Anakin become a Jedi, saying he'd train him either way.

Although it still doesn't really make sense for Obi Wan to say he thought he could do as well as Yoda when Yoda's own Padawan (Dooku) ended up turning to the Dark Side... That I might call a tiny plot hole (but still not the Leia remembering Padme thing since they practically explain it away in the movie as it is).

and excuse me, but did the Separatists like Nute Gunray not fucking notice that Darth Vader was the same fucking guy they were trying to kill in an arena in the previous movie?

Vader's hood was covering most of his face the entire time... And I don't think Gunray really cared who he was when he started murdering them seconds after arriving...

Sparky Prime wrote:

Things were implied in ANH that it was more of a gradual change to that rather than "got fucked up once and was immediately an evil cyborg".

Before RotS came out I'd always heard he became a cyborg after he fell into a volcano... I don't recall anything in ANH implying otherwise.

Nono, emphasis on *evil* cyborg, Sparky. Anakin's "development" from precocious child to brooding samurai is laughably simplistic when depicted onscreen.

Dominic wrote:

'Vaguely.' To the point where, as of Empire Strikes Back, Vader wasn't even planned to be Luke's father. And in ROTJ, Leia wasn't always going to be Luke's sister. (During the draft plans, Episodes 7-9 would have featured the Emperor and Luke searching the galaxy for his missing sister, alongside training the new Jedi order. Time and budget constraints basically forced Lucas to shove it all into the last movie, and cut the whole "Luke training the future Jedi" plot.)

Whaaaaat??!?!?!??? Do you have a source on this?

From Wookiepedia's ESB article, under "Preproduction":

According to Lucas, he didn't like the direction in which her screenplay went. Without a writer to fix it, he was forced to write the second draft himself throughout March. Major plot changes were made compared to the first draft and the storyline that is in the film was formed in this draft. One of the most notable changes was making Vader Luke's father.

From Wookiepedia's "Sequel Trilogy" article:

Gary Kurtz, the producer of A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back, recalls that the outline for a sequel trilogy was "very vague", outlining Skywalker's journey to becoming the premiere Jedi Knight in the Obi-Wan Kenobi mold, and his ultimate confrontation with Emperor Palpatine. According to Kurtz, early plans for this trilogy would have included the introduction of Luke's sister (who was not slated to be Princess Leia), and the first appearance of the Emperor, elements that were incorporated into Return of the Jedi once Kurtz and Lucas parted ways after The Empire Strikes Back.

In other words, pretty much exactly what I described--ROTJ was going to be a much different movie, probably still dealing with Luke killing Vader and such but the whole Palpatine thing was going to be Episodes 7-9.

I still say the most wasted element of the prequel trilogies in the villains! Throughout them we're given very clear villainous characters (Maul, Dooku, Greivous) who are just ABSOLUTELY WASTED. Dooku sucks as a villain because he's not that intimidating or cool at all, Darth Maul is really friggin' awesome but is quickly killed off in the worst way imaginable (luckily the comics fixed that by making him a 'badass cyborg' with robot legs) and Greivous is just entirely a waste, why even bother? It's like, they put him in ROTS because they wanted a new villain, but he's killed off in the first ten minutes--I guess to resolve him being in Clone Wars? But he was only in Clone Wars because he was in ROTS! Argh!

And, you know, besides that, there's the whole "droid and clone armies" thing I hated. The droid robots were seriously dumb, poorly designed, don't look like ANYTHING else in the Star Wars universe, and are NEVER a legitimate threat. Stormtroopers at least had a habit of killing no-name characters or being able to ambush guys. And the Clone Army...god, what a terrible fucking way to do something called the 'Clone Wars.' That COULD have been incredibly awesome. Obi-Wan and Anakin fighting evil clones of themselves? Tell me that Lucas wouldn't have CGI jizzed in his pants over that.

Gomess wrote:Nono, emphasis on *evil* cyborg, Sparky. Anakin's "development" from precocious child to brooding samurai is laughably simplistic when depicted onscreen.

But... There's still good in him![/Luke]

Sparky Prime wrote:

Gomess wrote:Nono, emphasis on *evil* cyborg, Sparky. Anakin's "development" from precocious child to brooding samurai is laughably simplistic when depicted onscreen.

But... There's still good in him![/Luke]

Certainly, but it's one of those "stories better left untold" if you ask me. Vader was a more powerful character when you didn't know he was a good guy before. Especially such a... stereotypical good guy.

I can just imagine a prequel to.. like.. The Man with the Golden Gun. That shows how Christopher Lee's character actually just had a Really Tough Childhood being abused by his stepfather (WHO HAS A GOLD LIGHTER, GET IT??) for having a third nipple.

...And, really, Darth Vader created C3P0? Does this never come to anything?!

Gomess wrote:...And, really, Darth Vader created C3P0? Does this never come to anything?!

I think there was actually a pretty good comic made that had Vader finding the disembodied head of 'threepio during the Cloud City segment, and reflecting on the wasted potential of his childhood and his failure to live up to the responsibility of 'creating' something. It might have been a fan-work though (still pretty cool!).

I can just imagine a prequel to.. like.. The Man with the Golden Gun. That shows how Christopher Lee's character actually just had a Really Tough Childhood being abused by his stepfather (WHO HAS A GOLD LIGHTER, GET IT??) for having a third nipple.

Didn't this exact sort of thing come up in the comics thread while talking about the Watchmen prequels that led into me reviving this thread to talk about Star Wars? Circuitous!