TF Views

Read What If 200, "What If Norman Osborn Won the Siege of Asgard", it asks an interesting question and plays out interestingly for the first half, but devolves into "how many people can Bob pull apart with his bare hands", a callback to Ares death in the main series. It's almost as if they simply ran out of interest in fleshing out the idea, and since The Sentry isn't a big enough deal they hadn't considered how folks would stop him - had this been a Superman tale it would have been obvious how they stop him. Too bad too because honestly, there are a lot better roads this story could have set up than just "The Sentry loses it and kills everybody right away".

Then there's "What If The Watcher Killed Galactus", that was more fun but kinda ran out of steam towards the end, the FF not really keeping their A game going into the home stretch, luckily the follow-through didn't hinge on the FF and the punishment was a solid twist. Also surprisingly deft handling of how we got to this point.

Also included was good bonus material, including all of What If 35, Elektra Didn't Get Killed, a real home run and a bit of a mindfuck for Matt.

Dominic wrote:

Issue 9 with Ares and his son was interesting, except I didn't know why Fury gave a crap about the son or who these characters he was training and hanging out with were. Bob catching it in the face at this point was clearly meaningless.

Bendis was writing more than one book. Stuff bled through. (And, it is not unreasonable to expect a reader to follow more than one book when those books are written by the same guy and are made to fit together.)

That response is ass, that's either bad writing or bad editing, someone dropped the ball. It takes a single sentence to cover their asses and they can't be bothered. How are they going to follow it 3 and a half years after it came out? How are they even supposed to know what the other title is where this information should be found? Issue 9 is pre-Siege, there's not even a checklist to give a hint, no mention that information that's foundational to THIS story is found elsewhere and should be read first.

Issue 10, all setup but no followthrough and the big reveal at the end missed the landing.

Issue 11 is even more setup and very little followthrough, but also a disappointing lack of payoff to the premise of Norman facing his demons.

Comics are serialized. Why is it so wrong for one issue to set up a later issue?

Really? That's weak sauce and you would know better if you weren't so invested in the material. Comics may be serialized, but they should each at least tell their own story as well.

Avengers: The Initiative 31 was the next piece of the puzzle, this was interesting as it connected to the material I had read and Taskmaster had a different take on things, it was introspective yet active, I just would have liked to have bought Taskmaster's inclusion in the Cabal v2 better.

Taskmaster's promotion was a damned good read.

Sorta, it's a good book but even Taskmaster knows he's not really big-time enough to be where he is, it puts Norman back on a level of stupidity he shouldn't be found at. Either that or Taskmaster wasn't shown in his best light AND doesn't believe in himself.

All of those issues lead in to "the Siege". You did not read it, that is on you.

First off, these issues don't lead into Siege, they ARE SUPPOSED TO BE INTEGRAL TO IT, taking place during it. The earlier issues lead into it, these are supposed to be in it, yet only issue 16 does anything connected to that. And the fact that none of it can stand on its own as well as tie in is a huge flaw. Yet they're also horribly disconnected from Siege as well as being integral to it, that's not a great sign.

Again, if it cannot stand on its own, if it cannot tell a story by itself as well as tie into the larger tale, that's a failing. At what point are you going to defend this practice, when they make you pay by the word, you have to buy 4 issues a week to complete a sentence?

Bob is basically a physical manifestation of Osborn's lunacy. Osborn wants the Sentry's wife killed because (as far as he knows) she is the only other person who can control/influence Bob. Bob is a punk who blundered in to great power.....and lacks the intelligence and mental stability to do anything with it. Osborn is only marginally better in that he can actually plan more than a few moves ahead.

The whole point of issue 15 is that in a way, Osborn was right when he told Bob that "there is no Void". There really is not a clear and magical line between the Sentry and the Void. They are *both* figments of Bob's super-empowered imagination. (When Bob reacts to his wife's death, he manifests as the Void. Think about that.)

Are you expecting that you blew my mind there? You didn't. Bob's damage is a funhouse mirror to Norman's, but it's not a physical manifestation of it, they come from entirely different places and they act in different ways. Osborn thinks that because he's got his own demons in check that he can lead Bob down the same path. It's when Norman fails to recognize that his demons run deeper than the Green Goblin itself that he loses control of himself, and then everything else. Of course Osborn was right when he told Bob that there is no Void, the Void is Bob's need manifest as verbalization and behavior. The fact that The Sentry tried to kill himself and The Void stopped him is showing that Bob isn't strong enough to follow through with doing the right thing, that he's ultimately a selfish person. There's also possibly a suggestion of political allegory in there, stemming from the larger political message, but I don't really want to get into that.

A mountain of things have transpired off-panel, none of which have resonated in the DA title itself until now, a giant battle has been planned, executed, and failed off-panel; loyalties have been swapped, Bob is entirely missing, and Norman makes his big speech at the end only to be tormented by his inner Goblin as they remain locked away. This could not have been a more frustrating failure of an issue, this could not have let this series down worse.

Uh, what is the problem with "hey, remember to go read this thematically and event-relevant book that is written by the same guy who wrote the book you have been following for a bit more than a year now"?

Nothing happened "off-panel". It happened in that book you knew about did not read.

Again you're saying it's on the reader, that's crap, that's fanboy blindness to the real problem. What do you say to the guy who buys Dark Avengers TPBs 1 through 3?!? That's $56 cover price; what do you say to someone who drops $50 for the hardback compilation of the whole shebang, fifty bucks for an incomplete, incomprehensible story.

And which of these stories ACTUALLY tie into the issues I read? I want to read stories directly connected to Dark Avengers, which of these issues will connect me, which of these issues will actually bridge Dark Avengers 15 with the nigh-unrelated issue 16?


I know which it isn't because you included some and it turned out some came with my free Marvel digital #1s, so Siege: The Cabal is a no (it explains why the building goes up, but really does a horrible job connecting to the Siege itself), Siege #1 no, Avengers The Initiative #31 and #33 no, and the Siege Stand-Alones also are a no. You want to see the problem with comics and their inability to bridge to larger audiences? There's a huge gulf right there, a blatant disrespect to the readers.

It happened off-panel to the Dark Avengers series, I'm invested in Norman "Iron Patriot" and Victoria Hand & HAMMER and Bullseye "Hawkeye" and Venom "Spidey" and Noh-Varr "Capt. Marvel" and Moonstone "Ms. Marvel" and Daken "Wolverine" and Ares and The Sentry and the Cabal's tie-in to that, the nuance and manipulation of the public image, the bad guys playing good guys maybe for the right reason, is it wrong if their goals for evil end up with good actions? I'm in because of the content of Dark Avengers, and in the last few issues of Dark Avengers vol 1, that's NOT what I'm getting, instead there's some easy-out that quickly undoes everything that came before, essentially nullifying the meaning behind the series and killing it not long after it learned to walk.

Issue 16 was presented as an epilogue to the story that ran through and ended in "the Siege".

Yes, but there's no real end story for Dark Avengers for that reason, it's just "flip the switch" and they're done.

Bob is important to "Dark Avengers" as the visible manifestation of the corruption and power themes. The whole point is that Osborn and his team were going to fail. (They call that much out in the first issue or two.) The most stable and upstanding members of the team were the God of War and a frustrated bureaucrat. And, Bendis conveyed all of that.

They shouldn't have failed in what seemed like a few days though, it should have really corrupted, Norman corrupted the images of good and people were following, the government was a believer.

BWprowl wrote:

Dominic wrote:Bendis was writing more than one book. Stuff bled through. (And, it is not unreasonable to expect a reader to follow more than one book when those books are written by the same guy and are made to fit together.)

I think it's funny that you're the only one who champions this as completely acceptable and expected while all the rest of us are like, "No, that's bullshit, they shouldn't do that." If I go out and spend my money on a comic book, I don't want them hustling me going, "Ha, now you have to spend MORE money on this other comic you didn't even care about before if you want to make sense of the story!"

Totally right, and it's not just that it's hustling, it's also dishonest to the book itself, there's a story but it doesn't really get to speak its mind because instead it has to serve at another master instead of its own title.

Dom wrote:Uh, this is how comics are published, and how they have been for some time now.

If two or more comics are written by the same guy and cover similar subject matter, it is not unreasonable for them to cross-over, nor is it unreasonable to expect people to buy both. There is a significant difference between assuming people will read two related titles and obligating them to buy otherwise unrelated titles.

I read "Cobra". I do not bother with "GI Joe", even when there is a cross-over. I just assume some shit happened that I did not bother to read about and move on. But, when I was reading "Dark Avengers", I did not complain when Bendis crossed it over with other "Avengers" books, including those that he was writing.

This is a fairly modern phenomenon, it really started in our lifetime, and since then readership has declined sharply. If you were reading Cobra and 4 issues told incomplete stories that served a different title and not that title, what would you do? If the final issue of Cobra lacked an entire event and was just an epilogue dishing pieces out left and right with just a few sentences to explain itself, what would you do?

Shock wrote:The problem here is that it's essentially the comic book version of how Playmates fucked up the 2009 Star Trek toy line. "We're going to release this but to get the whole thing you have to buy everything". It's an obvious money grab and it's a shitty thing to do to consumers and fans.

Ha, yeah, those bridge playset packins and then missing figures and packins are bad. This is worse though, that was just a playmat playset, this is a STORY. Or rather, it's 2 semi-connected stories that intertwine somewhere after the next-to-last issue and the aftermath clumsily plays out in the last issue.

Yeah. Although I do kind of like it when a writer might use more than one book to enhance the over all story, I don't like it when they make it so you have to buy all of their titles to get the overall story. The individual titles should be able to stand on their own.

Exactly! "Have a good story to tell, and tell it well," the original Marvel secret, should be in every issue.

I think it's a bit too early to say it's never going to be resolved. The title might be canceled, but that doesn't mean DC can't pick up the plot threads in another title. I've seen them do that with other titles that have been canceled.

I doubt that they will though.

"Team 7" was a wave 3 book. In other words, DC held it back until the bottom sellers of the first two waves failed. It was never going to be more than a tertiary title. The fact that it did not sell well enough to last is just one more reason for DC to not bother picking up any of the dangling threads, (even if there are a few big ones).

Too bad too because honestly, there are a lot better roads this story could have set up than just "The Sentry loses it and kills everybody right away".

"The obviously bad thing happens and everybody dies" is the biggest cliche in "What If....?". I would guess (based on having read a significant amount of 1970s and late 80s/early 90s "What If....?" that it accounts for about a third of the stories.

It was more forgivable when it was a monthly series. But, when Marvel went over to the "every so often" format, I expected better. Given the possibilities of "Dark Reign", ("What if.....Osborn had a legitimate point?"), it was especially disappointing.

Then there's "What If The Watcher Killed Galactus", that was more fun but kinda ran out of steam towards the end, the FF not really keeping their A game going into the home stretch, luckily the follow-through didn't hinge on the FF and the punishment was a solid twist. Also surprisingly deft handling of how we got to this point.

I only skimmed it. The writing style made it damned well unreadable. (When I think of "Silver Age" comics, I completely understand why people view the industry and its product with such contempt.)

Also included was good bonus material, including all of What If 35, Elektra Didn't Get Killed, a real home run and a bit of a mindfuck for Matt.

That was written by Miller, right?

Given how comics were written up through the 80s, I can see how guys like Miller managed to stand out, just for being able to write sentences at an adult level. (Call Miller out for misogynist or homophobe. But, he was a better writer than most of the guys who came before him.)

That response is ass, that's either bad writing or bad editing, someone dropped the ball. It takes a single sentence to cover their asses and they can't be bothered. How are they going to follow it 3 and a half years after it came out? How are they even supposed to know what the other title is where this information should be found? Issue 9 is pre-Siege, there's not even a checklist to give a hint, no mention that information that's foundational to THIS story is found elsewhere and should be read first.

I read "Dark Avengers" after largely avoiding Marvel for damned near a decade. I had no problems following what was going on.

Every so often, I just had to assume "some shit happened in another book" and move on. The stuff that was important in "Dark Avengers" happened in "Dark Avengers". As much as I like the Sentry (and did go back and track down some earlier appearances), I did not need all of his back-story. (And, Bendis gave us the relevant parts in "Dark Avengers".)

I only read "Avengers" and "New Avengers" sporadically while reading "Dark Avengers". And, that was enough.

Really? That's weak sauce and you would know better if you weren't so invested in the material. Comics may be serialized, but they should each at least tell their own story as well.

Would you rather have a shitty "done in one" comic or a good comic that is part of a larger story? The better writers in the business generally favour multi-issue stories. "Iron Man: Rise of the Melter" was done in one. And, I feel ripped off for having bought it.

Sorta, it's a good book but even Taskmaster knows he's not really big-time enough to be where he is, it puts Norman back on a level of stupidity he shouldn't be found at. Either that or Taskmaster wasn't shown in his best light AND doesn't believe in himself.

The point was that Osborn wanted somebody he could control, but not have to supervise too closely. Taskmaster was shown to be a good subordinate, able to think for himself, but compliant when necessary.

First off, these issues don't lead into Siege, they ARE SUPPOSED TO BE INTEGRAL TO IT, taking place during it. The earlier issues lead into it, these are supposed to be in it, yet only issue 16 does anything connected to that. And the fact that none of it can stand on its own as well as tie in is a huge flaw. Yet they're also horribly disconnected from Siege as well as being integral to it, that's not a great sign.

Uh, why do they have to take place duing "the Siege"? They are directly tied to "the Siege" by setting up stuff that is going to be important during that story. But, they are set before it. Bob's origin and the murder of his wife are all relevant to "the Siege". (They show how/why Osborn finally thought he had Bob under control.)

At what point are you going to defend this practice, when they make you pay by the word, you have to buy 4 issues a week to complete a sentence?

You are asking how much I am willing to pay for a well-written comic. And, frankly, I would rather pay more for a well-written comic than less for a badly written comic. I would rather have no comics than comics written at the level of "Maus" or "Iron Man: Rise of the Melter" or most any Silver Age shit.

Bendis can write a complete story. He just needs more than 20 pages to do it well.

Are you expecting that you blew my mind there? You didn't. Bob's damage is a funhouse mirror to Norman's, but it's not a physical manifestation of it, they come from entirely different places and they act in different ways.

In real terms. Bob is the visible representation of Osborn's demons. That is why their interactions on page are so important.

Osborn's implosion is predictable during one of his first conversations with Bob, when he points out the "good, human things" they do to remind themselves that they are human. Bob might legitimately need that reminder. But, even accounting for his superhuman attributes, Norman should not (despite his admission that he clearly does).

Siege: The Cabal

I am pretty sure that shows how Loki convinces Osborn to attack Asgard, and it shows the false-flag attack that Osborn uses as a pretext. (Am I remembering it wrong?)

Yes, but there's no real end story for Dark Avengers for that reason, it's just "flip the switch" and they're done.

"The Siege" is a Dark Avengers story, written by the same guy. It coudl easily have been 4 issues of "Dark Avengers". You are haggling over a question of branding because you do not want to go out and read it. "Dark Avengers" ends in "The Siege". Most people who were reading "Dark Avengers" would have no trouble picking up and reading "the Siege".

Your complaints would be like me sitting through part of Episode 4 of "Star Wars", leaving before the end and them complaining that Episode 5 did not follow from what I saw.

If the final issue of Cobra lacked an entire event and was just an epilogue dishing pieces out left and right with just a few sentences to explain itself, what would you do?

The difference is that "Cobra" is written by Costa while the other Joe books (at the time) were written by Dixon. I actually skipped all of the Dixon chapters of the "Cobra Command" and "Cobra Civil War" arcs. And, guess what? I was fine just having read the Costa written chapters. There was other stuff happening in the Dixon books. But, I did not need to see every damned thing to make sense of what I was reading. I did not say "but when did that happen?". I just figured "some shit happened in another book" and kept reading.



And, a comic review:


Iron Man #258.1 and #258.2:
Marvel has apparently take their ".1" model and expended it from "artificial jumping on points" to "telling stories set earlier in the run".

Despite being written by Michelinie and drawn by Layton, this story is set during the Byrne/Romita run of the book. The high concept is that Stark has to contend with a rogue AI that wants to replace him. It is not unlike "Iron Man: The Rapture" in this regard. But, it lacks the predictable "slasher-movie" story beats of "the Rapture". One of the characters that the AI does manage to kill actually shows up much later (after Byrne) in the "Iron Man" comics of the early 90s. This may be a mistake owing to the fact that Michelinie is unfamiliar with the book after he left it. Or, it is something that might tie in with a possible post-"Age of Ultron" re-write. I dunno. And, I honestly am not worried. This is a Michelinie/Layton "Iron Man" comic. That is good enough.


Dom
-guessing it was a mistake.....

"The Siege" is a Dark Avengers story, written by the same guy. It coudl easily have been 4 issues of "Dark Avengers". You are haggling over a question of branding because you do not want to go out and read it. "Dark Avengers" ends in "The Siege". Most people who were reading "Dark Avengers" would have no trouble picking up and reading "the Siege".

Your complaints would be like me sitting through part of Episode 4 of "Star Wars", leaving before the end and them complaining that Episode 5 did not follow from what I saw.

Nope! It's more like watching Episode 5, and Han Solo is alive and well at the end, and then Episode 6 starts with him frozen in Carbonite. For some reason.

The difference is that "Cobra" is written by Costa while the other Joe books (at the time) were written by Dixon. I actually skipped all of the Dixon chapters of the "Cobra Command" and "Cobra Civil War" arcs. And, guess what? I was fine just having read the Costa written chapters. There was other stuff happening in the Dixon books. But, I did not need to see every damned thing to make sense of what I was reading. I did not say "but when did that happen?". I just figured "some shit happened in another book" and kept reading.

Normal people don't want to do that! That's fucking confusing and stupid. When Venom joined the Secret Avengers, I got worried that shit that was important to his storyline was going to happen in that book. And guess what? Inbetween Venom issues, Venom hunted down and captured some dude. One of the Venom issues opened up with Venom talking to him in some Avengers-type prison cell thing. And I was like, "Who is this guy? When did he capture him? Did I miss a fucking issue?" I seriously was checking numbers in the corners and shit. That's not good storytelling, it's just fucking annoying.

Onslaught Six wrote:Nope! It's more like watching Episode 5, and Han Solo is alive and well at the end, and then Episode 6 starts with him frozen in Carbonite. For some reason.

What, dude, you didn't see 'Cloud Quest', that movie that came out a little while later? I know it doesn't have 'Star Wars' anywhere in the title and neither film actually indicated that you needed to watch one to make sense of the other, and aside from Han Solo showing up in one bit and getting frozen in carbonite it doesn't feature any characters or plot elements from the Star Wars movies, but they were both directed by George Lucas, so that should have been enough! Why didn't you follow the clues?

See Dom, this is why this system is stupid.

ASIDE: I actually really fucking hate this 'Secret Club' mentality that pervades comics and how they're handled. Like, Dom goes on about how reading everything from a particular author to get a story that's told across multiple titles is just 'how comics are written' and you should just *know* that. But like, how are you even supposed to know that when you first start reading comics? No other media does that, why would you expect this stuff to? You'd need to end up in a conversation with someone like Dom to be clued in on that, the comics themselves don't even mention it these days (like Six's Venom/Avengers example, or when I was reading FF and a big, plot-resolving event happened over in the Fantastic 4 book, which wasn't indicated anywhere). Hell, just to find out when particular stuff is *coming out* you have to check a Diamond catalog or something, since companies can't be assed to put actual release dates in any of their solicits. Hell, for the first few *years* I was reading comics, I didn't even know the damn things came out on Wednesday! I thought that each company just shipped different books on irregular days; I was going down to my shop almost every other day wondering when the TF or Street Fighter stuff would arrive because I was afraid I would miss it and I didn't have a damn release date for anything save for "soon"! Would it be so hard for comic shops to put up a "New Comics on Wednesday!" sign?

If you really want to bring in new comic readers, you need to make getting and reading comics more inviting and accomodating. Tell me when shit's coming out. If I need to pick up another book one week to understand something in another book I'm reading, stick a blurb on the cover or something.

Dominic wrote:I doubt that they will though.

"Team 7" was a wave 3 book. In other words, DC held it back until the bottom sellers of the first two waves failed. It was never going to be more than a tertiary title. The fact that it did not sell well enough to last is just one more reason for DC to not bother picking up any of the dangling threads, (even if there are a few big ones).

Again, I wouldn't count it out so quickly. After Blue Beetle was canceled the character was picked up for the Threshold title. So you never know how events and characters from one title might be carried over to another.

Wave 2 "Marvel Legends: Iron Man Iron Monger" series:

Despite being billed as shipping this fall, the second wave of the Iron Monger series is shipping now.

I would have figured they would show up in August at the absolute earliest. But, apparently, movie product is moving fast enough to warrant shipping them early. This also implies that the wave 2 figures were just sitting in wharehouses for months. (Kudos to Hasbro for keeping the second wave figures relatively secret.)


The biggest single problem with the wave 2 figures applies to the wave as a whole. Despite the first wave and the build-up being based on the comics, the wave 2 figures are all based on the movie or "faux-movie". Given how much movie product is on shelves at the moment, it seems like a waste for Hasbro to have released a wave of toys that is inconsistent with the previous wave as well as the build-up figure. Despite the poor composition of the wave as a whole, none of the individual figures are bad. (On a personal note, all of these figures would have been a better base for the custom project that I have started using "Heroic Age" Iron Man.)

Lt. Col. James Rhodes:
Objectively, the biggest issue with this figure is that it maps colours on to a figure that was never moulded to use said colours. (As most people likely know at this point:

Spoiler

in the movie, Iron Patriot is James Rhodes wearing modified War Machine armour.

) Hasbro was stuck with a difficult character model, and had to make due. But, part of me still really resents the fact that

Spoiler

movie Iron Patriot does not even qualify as a shallow use of the character/concept from the comics.

. Late edit: This figure has side-hinged shoulder pads, meaning that the shoulders are effectively restricted. There is no reason for these sort of design choices.

Iron Man mk42:
I am not sure if this armour is in the movie. But, the moulding is clearly based on the movie rather than the comic, not unlike the "concept series" figures that Hasbro typically includes in the 4 inch figure lines. Unlike most current "Marvel Legends" figures, mk42 Iron Man does not use the torso hinge. (This may or may not be a recolour of an old mould. I really do not feel like checking.) Given that I am not sure if this figure is actually based on something form the movie, it is tough to recommend. But, it displays well enough and has plenty of fiddle value.

Ultron:
This is arguably the worst figure of the second wave. This Ultron does not look like any previous iteration of the character. The character blurb implies that the figure is intended to represent Ultron-8. But, given that the figure is a head-swap of the Titanium Man figure from few years ago, it is safe to assume that this does not look like Ultron 8 from the comics. (Said Titanium Man figure was a very poor translation of the second Titanium Man armour from the comics.) And, Ultron has a torso-hinge. All that being said, the Titanium Man body looks good in silver. The torso hinge is barely visible given that it runs along existing seams on the character model. Over-all, Ultron may be the worst of the set for being the only one that has no real place in the comics or the movie. But, it is still a solid figure on its own.


Iron Monger:
Some reviewers are saying that it is a straight panagraphed up-size of the Iron Monger from the "Iron Man 2". I am not sure about that. But, both toys are clearly based on the same character model from the 80s comics.

Iron Monger is an impressively big figure, standing maybe 7 or 8 inches tall, head and shoulders above the regular figures. The only real problem with Iron Monger is that the arms are too short for the rest of the figure. This figure has all of the standard points of articulation, and no torso-hinge. The shiny blue base plastic works very well for this figure. The only paint apps are the red for the uni-beam emitter on the chest, some black for the "mouth" and what looks like a thinly layered mix or red and black for the eye visor. Both of the hands are moulded as fists, with makes it hard to set up a headless Iron Monger figure in tribute to the character's death.

No doubt, some people will buy all 6 figures in this set to get the build-up parts. Using that business model essentially makes Iron Monger a $100 dollar figure. And, no, it is not worth $100 on its own. On the other hand, if somebody cares enough to go out and hunt down all 6 pieces of Iron Monger, they probably like "Iron Man" enough to be interested in at least some of the other figures.

Of the base 6 figures, the only wholly bad figure is the "Heroic Age" Iron Man, by virtue of being a poor execution of a good design. (There is no reason that the seams of the figure could not habe been better matched to seams on the character model. And, the thigh swivels are inexcusable.) The "Marvel Legends: Iron Man" are only a few dollars more than regular "Marvel Legends". And, assuming that the extra cost is the result of the included Iron Monger pieces, Iron Monger costs ~$25 in total. It would probably be worth buying one or two figures that you do not want at all in order to get Iron Monger. But, that assumes 1 or more other figures that you actively want and being on the high side of indifferent regarding the rest.

Nope! It's more like watching Episode 5, and Han Solo is alive and well at the end, and then Episode 6 starts with him frozen in Carbonite. For some reason.

"Siege" was clearly branded as part of "Dark Avengers". It easily could have been published as part of "Dark Avengers". That is why my analogy assumes that somebody was skipping part of a movie and complaining that it was not a complete story.

Normal people don't want to do that! That's fucking confusing and stupid. When Venom joined the Secret Avengers, I got worried that shit that was important to his storyline was going to happen in that book. And guess what? Inbetween Venom issues, Venom hunted down and captured some dude. One of the Venom issues opened up with Venom talking to him in some Avengers-type prison cell thing. And I was like, "Who is this guy? When did he capture him? Did I miss a fucking issue?" I seriously was checking numbers in the corners and shit. That's not good storytelling, it's just fucking annoying.

If the two or more books are billed as being related (either by cross-over or by having the same writer/editor), then it is no unreasonable to think that somebody is going to buy both of them. If you are not going to read the books advertised as being related, then you have to just assume/accept that some stuff happened and move on.

In the case of Venom, just assume that "Venom caught some guy before the issue started" and keep going.

ASIDE: I actually really fucking hate this 'Secret Club' mentality that pervades comics and how they're handled. Like, Dom goes on about how reading everything from a particular author to get a story that's told across multiple titles is just 'how comics are written' and you should just *know* that. But like, how are you even supposed to know that when you first start reading comics?

What "secret club"? Cross-overs and such are generally advertised. And, it is not uncommon for stories to just pick a starting point. Again, I started with "Dark Avengers" after nearly a decade of barely paying attention to Marvel. I knew Marvel existed. And, I knew the bigger plot points by virtue of going to the shop once a week. But, I did not read Marvel consistently until "Dark Avengers" in 2008. I did not consistently read the other Bendis-written "Avengers" books. And, I could still understand "Dark Avengers" despite that book connecting to the other "Avengers" books.

Skipping "Siege" would be like skipping the 3 or 4 chapters of a book before the last chapter, and then complaining that the end made no sense.



Dom

Dominic wrote:Lt. Col. James Rhodes:
Objectively, the biggest issue with this figure is that it maps colours on to a figure that was never moulded to use said colours. (As most people likely know at this point:

Spoiler

in the movie, Iron Patriot is James Rhodes wearing modified War Machine armour.

) Hasbro was stuck with a difficult character model, and had to make due. But, part of me still really resents the fact that

Spoiler

movie Iron Patriot does not even qualify as a shallow use of the character/concept from the comics.

. If somebody is a fan of the movie, they will probably have little to complain about regarding this toy.

Iron Man mk42:
I am not sure if this armour is in the movie. But, the moulding is clearly based on the movie rather than the comic, not unlike the "concept series" figures that Hasbro typically includes in the 4 inch figure lines. Unlike most current "Marvel Legends" figures, mk42 Iron Man does not use the torso hinge. (This may or may not be a recolour of an old mould. I really do not feel like checking.) Given that I am not sure if this figure is actually based on something form the movie, it is tough to recommend. But, it displays well enough and has plenty of fiddle value.

Okay, you haven’t seen the movie, have you Dom? Real quickly, if you care

Spoiler

Iron Patriot does end up being used in a villainous role in line with how the character/concept was used in the comics, which surprised and impressed me, and the Mk42 armor is the main armor throughout the movie, and is arguably a character unto itself.

If the two or more books are billed as being related (either by cross-over or by having the same writer/editor), then it is no unreasonable to think that somebody is going to buy both of them. If you are not going to read the books advertised as being related, then you have to just assume/accept that some stuff happened and move on.

My point is that, for pretty much everyone but you, two books being written by the same guy does not automatically mean we see them as being related, especially since plenty of books *still* don’t do that. I just think it’s ridiculous to ask of customers that, if they’re picking a book up off a rack because it looks interesting, that right there they’ve got to check the author of the book, then go over every book on the rack to see if there’s anything else by that author, then look over past releases for anything else by that author, then go and ask the dudes at the counter if there’s anything ELSE by that author coming out soon, all to make sure they don’t miss out on some crucial element of the story. Furthermore, the fact that they wouldn’t even know to DO that unless someone like you mentioned to them they had to contributes to the ‘secret club’ mentality I’m talking about. None of these books say anywhere on them “Buy these other books by the same author if you actually want the whole story!”, they just assume long-term comic fans like you already know, and completely disregard any potential new customers who may have no idea about how this ‘system’ operates. That FF/Fantastic 4 situation I ended up in continues to be a perfect example. They put out an issue specifically aimed at roping in new readers (“Hey guys, look, the Power Pack is in this one!”), then ended on a cliffhanger that was resolved in a complete other book and didn’t indicate anywhere to these new readers that we had to buy that other book to get the rest of the story! That’s just bad marketing, and that’s not how any piece of media should be sold or distributed.

Again, writers for every other piece of media on Earth as well as plenty of other comic books can write stories that are mutually exclusive from one-another, I don’t see why you let a few comic writers get away with this crap just because you think it’s ‘expected’ for some reason.

Skipping "Siege" would be like skipping the 3 or 4 chapters of a book before the last chapter, and then complaining that the end made no sense.

It'd be more like if those chapters were released separately from the book in question, under a different title, that they made you pay for separately, and didn't fully indicate to you that you had to read them anyway.

Okay, you haven’t seen the movie, have you Dom? Real quickly, if you care {SPOILER - Mouse-over to read:}Iron Patriot does end up being used in a villainous role in line with how the character/concept was used in the comics, which surprised and impressed me, and the Mk42 armor is the main armor throughout the movie, and is arguably a character unto itself.

I have not seen the movie.

Spoiler

My complaint about the Patriot in the movie is that they are just using the name, but nothing else. They would have done just as well to keep Rhodes as War Machine.

If the Mk42 suit is in the movie, then it is easier to recommend to fans of the movie.

Dominic wrote:

Spoiler

My complaint about the Patriot in the movie is that they are just using the name, but nothing else. They would have done just as well to keep Rhodes as War Machine.

Spoiler

The Iron Patriot armor gets co-opted by the main villain partway through the movie and used to infiltrate government security under the guise of being a 'hero' they all know and trust.

Also, the change from War Machine to Iron Patriot and how arbitrary it seems is mentioned and discussed by characters at a couple points in the film.

Dominic wrote:Iron Man mk42:
I am not sure if this armour is in the movie.

They show that armor in pretty much all of the commercials and promotional materials for the film...

BWprowl wrote:

Spoiler

Also, the change from War Machine to Iron Patriot and how arbitrary it seems is mentioned and discussed by characters at a couple points in the film.

Spoiler

Kid: Iron Patriot? That's so much cooler! Stark: ...No it's not.
Also thought it was funny how Rhodes password is still something like War Machine Rocks