Movies are awesome

[Gomess]

I love the assumption there'll be another version of one of the old Star Warses. 'Cos there will. And everyone will just accept it.

One of my lecturers used to encourage me to redraft my work... BEFORE it was published.

[Shockwave]

Given that Episode I is about to get rereleased in 3D, I have to assume the rest of the epic will eventually follow suit. And if they are changing it to 3D, who knows what other changes Lucas will make?

Shockwave
-Actually likes the changes they made to Empire.

[Sparky Prime]

Yeah yeah, I've heard that one before too but we all know damn well that's bullshit. At the end of the day, Lucas phoned in Episode III and screwed the continuity in the process. I'm sorry but that particular point was really the deal breaker for me.

I know I'm not qualified to talk about Star Wars, but Trekwave has a point. When you have to start filling in gaps for the IP owners... you've got plot holes, simple as.

This just seems like making a big deal out of something really minor and easily explained away to me. I don't see how it breaks continuity at all, especially when there is precedent for it in the movies. I mean, Anakin and Luke both showed a natural aptitude using the Force with their piloting skills before they had any real Jedi training. And again, Yoda does mention someone could use the Force to see into the future or the past. So why couldn't Leia have naturally tapped into that in trying to remember who her real mother was?

[Gomess]

The problem, Sparky, is that you're having to explain it, and it's clear from the execution that that was never Lucas' intention. It's a very general- and popular- criticism of the Star Wars series, sure, but a valid one.

Of course, I have met my fair share of people who believe all six were written before the first one even hit the movie screen, to whom I say... bLEH?

[Sparky Prime]

The problem, Sparky, is that you're having to explain it, and it's clear from the execution that that was never Lucas' intention. It's a very general- and popular- criticism of the Star Wars series, sure, but a valid one.

I'm not having to explain it though. I'm just applying what the movies tell me about the Force and the Skywalker's abilities to use it. Maybe that wasn't the original intent, but the execution still works given the set up.

[Gomess]

Well, my only point was that it wasn't the original intent, soo... I guess we agree?

Having grown up on TF and X-Men I've had to fill in plenty of gaps too, but I've reached the stage where I think it's more a sign of bad storytelling than of an attempt to include the fans in the creative process.

And, weirdly, Dom probably agrees with me here? =3

[Dominic]

ut…why was the cave even there? Did Yoda just use some Jedi pixie dust to magic up a cave where he could teach headstrong Jedi trainees an important lesson in anger management? Is Luke dreaming?

The force is strong on Dagobah. There are more specific explanations in the novels. Take them or leave them. (The SW novels and comics range so wildly in tone and quality that they are not worth discussing as a whole.)

Why does the screen go all woodly?

Cinematic technique.

C'mon dude.....

Why doesn’t he so much as mention it to Yoda afterwards?

Would you? Seriously, would you want to mention that to Yoda?

Dom, I really need to hear your reasoning on Episode 3 vs. 6.

The long and short is that I can ignore a couple of loosely phrased lines and some debatable continuity for the sake of an over-all better movie.

Episode 6 started with filler, and got stupider as it went on. Aside from the throne room scenes, there is nothing I can say that I really like about that movie.

Now, why it was never brought up later I dunno. And why seeing VaderLuke was considered a failure I also dunno. But yeah, that was the setup for that.

Some of that explanation that you post is tertiary. It might count. It might not.

Either way, the force is reactive. The "Dark Side" is the corrupted force. Balance is not equilibrium so much as it is an absense of the Dark Side. Anakin brought that balance by tossing the Emperor down a shaft and having the good grace to die after realizing he had been a jerk and showing Luke what jerk he had been.

Anyone else feel like for as much Darth Vader teasing as we got through that whole damn series, the movie could have delivered some Vader? That's far from my only complaint with the movie, but it's the easiest to make.

He killed at least one member of the council and a bunch of other Jedi in the temple.

And, (time for big type): He was Vader from the moment he walked out of the Chancellor's office after the purge. He just did not get the armour until later. armour =/= Vader

yelling "Nnnnooooooooooo!!"

The "nooooooo" was pretty bad. It should have been a primal yell of rage.

I will agree on that much.

whining like a bitch the whole time.

Anakin was an asshole. That was the damned point.

Return of the Jedi also highlights the changes in Luke as he's nearly completed the training by then. Luke presents himself as extremely self confident, calm and collected, until he starts letting his emotions get the better of him on the Death Star

The Emperor really did his part to keep Luke on the straight and narrow. Every time Luke started to slip, the Emperor opened his big mouth and reminded Luke of what he was not supposed to be doing....

Most fans theorize Leia could use the Force to some degree (after all, the Force is strong with the Skywalker family) in order to have some memory of Padme.

She also sensed Luke in Cloud City. And, she certainly demonstrated that Skywalker temper on more than one occassion.

That is less fanon and more "there in the damned movie". The explanations about Dagobah range from fanon to released through official, but not wholly canonical, sources.

Midiclorians.

Fucking deal with it.

When you have to start filling in gaps for the IP owners... you've got plot holes, simple as.

I would generally agree. But, in this case, the reasoning is fully supported by the movies.

This just seems like making a big deal out of something really minor and easily explained away to me. I don't see how it breaks continuity at all, especially when there is precedent for it in the movies.

Badabingaling!

The problem, Sparky, is that you're having to explain it, and it's clear from the execution that that was never Lucas' intention. It's a very general- and popular- criticism of the Star Wars series, sure, but a valid one.

Actually, it probably was. People just want to hate on the prequels.

Of course, I have met my fair share of people who believe all six were written before the first one even hit the movie screen, to whom I say... bLEH?

They existed in outline form. But, not as full scripts.

Having grown up on TF and X-Men I've had to fill in plenty of gaps too, but I've reached the stage where I think it's more a sign of bad storytelling than of an attempt to include the fans in the creative process.

Fair point. But, in this case, we have to assume a certain amount of author intent.

If you want to "agree weirdly" though, you have to beat Scourge and his musical abilities.


So, I have managed to agree with both Sparky and Gomess in the same thread. As novel as that is, I am ust about done discussing "Star Wars.


Dom
-and there were "colon" jokes earlier today.

[Shockwave]

... I really don't know what to say. Really. To call ANY of ROTJ filler is just flat out wrong. Every damn scene in the movie is wrapping up and resolving plot threads from the previous two. Episode III is the one that was largely filler. To the point where there was literally a scene of Anakin just sitting there thinking! Grevious was almost entirely filler and added nothing of any value to the plot whatsoever.

And, I'm off work and have stuff to do so I'll elaborate further on this later.

[138 Scourge]

I'm just sayin', when I think "Darth Goddamn Vader", I think guy in the awesome suit with James Earl Jones' voice. That's what I wanted to finally see in Episode III, and the movie didn't deliver. You can make the point all day that Vader doesn't need the armor to be Vader, but that'll never be the Vader I want to see. It's like Jason without a hockey mask, Tarzan without the jungle, or Godzilla without Japan. Without the suit, he's just some whiny bitch stabbing a couple babies. Gimme the iconic character over that guy any day.

Which, anyway, that's why I kind of gave up on Star Wars. Not that it was a deliberate thing, where it was like "Oh, no proper Vader? I'm out." More like, "Man, these movies are never going to deliver anything I'm interested in seeing, and upon reflection, I don't think I cared for the earlier ones, either."

[Onslaught Six]

Return of the Jedi also highlights the changes in Luke as he's nearly completed the training by then. Luke presents himself as extremely self confident, calm and collected, until he starts letting his emotions get the better of him on the Death Star. But that's the final challenge for Luke, to give into his emotions or learn to overcome it, ultimately choosing the path towards Jedi or Sith.

You know, that's something I always thought was bullshit about ROTJ. (Almost typed ROTF there--yuck!) Luke leaves Yoda at the end of Empire and Yoda's all "WAIT YOUR TRAINING ISN'T DONE YET," and then apparently Luke just...hangs out between movies, getting a cool new outfit before he goes to kill Jabba. Then he FINALLY goes back to Dagobah and...Yoda's dying, and says his training is complete. What the hell, man?

Grevious was almost entirely filler and added nothing of any value to the plot whatsoever.

My BIGGEST disappointment with Episode 3, bar none. When me and my girlfriend started dating, Episode 3 was the only Star Wars movie she'd seen, and it was mostly by accident. (I have since rectified that.) I saw a Greivous fig in Wal-Mart or some other such store and was all, "Awesome, Greivous, I should buy him, eventually!" "Why would you buy the pussy coughing robot guy?"

Because, bitch, 'Clone Wars.' Not the shitty one they have on now, the original one, where Greivous was a badass among badasses.

Would you? Seriously, would you want to mention that to Yoda?

This reminds me of that bit in The Matrix, where Neo goes to see the Oracle and has a weird experience. When he gets out, the first thing he wants to do is tell Morpheus (his Yoda) about it. Morpheus stops him and says, "No. She told you exactly what you needed to hear. What she told you was for you to hear and you alone." I'd assume something similar is happening here.

He killed at least one member of the council and a bunch of other Jedi in the temple.

"He hunted down the Jedi for years!" Which amounts to hacking off a half-dozen of them in one place, and that's it. (Then again, a lot of stuff doesn't make sense when compared to the prequel trilogies. That one dude who gets choked in ANH calls Vader pathetic for being devoted to his "ancient religion" when realistically that guy is old enough to have seen Jedis running around everywhere less than 20 years ago.)

They existed in outline form. But, not as full scripts.

'Vaguely.' To the point where, as of Empire Strikes Back, Vader wasn't even planned to be Luke's father. And in ROTJ, Leia wasn't always going to be Luke's sister. (During the draft plans, Episodes 7-9 would have featured the Emperor and Luke searching the galaxy for his missing sister, alongside training the new Jedi order. Time and budget constraints basically forced Lucas to shove it all into the last movie, and cut the whole "Luke training the future Jedi" plot.)