Retro Comics are Awesome

[Sparky Prime]

Infinite Crisis was such a waste. They brought back so many worlds and characters only to contract again with the New 52.

I wouldn't say they contracted again with the New 52. If anything, it appears that New 52 actually expanded the multiverse a bit seeing how the Earth 2 characters exist in a separate universe again.

[andersonh1]

Justice League: A New Beginning

I had this trade once and somewhere along the way it disappeared. Probably sold it in one of my comic collection purges way back when. But I found a used copy last week, and it's been a lot of fun to revisit the seven issues collected in this volume. This is the Justice League that formed immediately post-Crisis and post-Legends. It's a fairly unique lineup of characters that would be changed considerably when the book became Justice League International with issue 7. Off the top of my head, it's Guy Gardner, Batman, Captain Marvel, Black Canary, Doctor Fate, Blue Beetle, Mr. Miracle and Oberon. Booster Gold joins partway through, and Dr. Light is involved with the League, though I don't think she's an official member. Running plots include Max Lord's manipulation of the League as he plans the JLI version, and the ongoing conflict between Gardner and Batman. The famous "one punch" gag is in this volume when Batman takes out Gardner with one hit. Individual stories include a terrorist attack on the UN (staged by Max Lord), three super powered individuals from another dimension whose world was destroyed by nuclear weapons, and who intend to wipe the Earth of them. So soon after the Crisis wiped out the multiverse, we have a trio of characters who essentially owe their origin to the concept of worlds in other universes. Another plotline involves the Gray Man, an agent of Order who comes into conflict with Dr. Fate.

The stories hold up very well, even decades later, and the dialogue doesn't feel all that dated. It could almost be contemporary in many cases. The references to the Soviet Union are dated, and both Gorbachev and Reagan make appearances. Kevin Maguire's reputation for varied facial expressions is readily apparent in the art. All in all, this is a strong volume of collected stories, and well worth reading.

[andersonh1]

Infinite Crisis was such a waste. They brought back so many worlds and characters only to contract again with the New 52.

I wouldn't say they contracted again with the New 52. If anything, it appears that New 52 actually expanded the multiverse a bit seeing how the Earth 2 characters exist in a separate universe again.

The multiverse exists, yes, but then it came back with Infinite Crisis. How many characters are simply gone with the New 52? I'm thinking largely of legacy characters here. We're starting to get some back in one form or another (Wally West, Ted Kord), but the DC universe is definitely smaller than it was when it comes to the available pool of characters.

[Sparky Prime]

The multiverse exists, yes, but then it came back with Infinite Crisis. How many characters are simply gone with the New 52? I'm thinking largely of legacy characters here. We're starting to get some back in one form or another (Wally West, Ted Kord), but the DC universe is definitely smaller than it was when it comes to the available pool of characters.

I wouldn't call characters who haven't shown up yet in the New 52 as simply gone. They're probably all there in some form, we just haven't seen them yet. DC can (re)introduce them them at any time, just as they are with the upcoming appearances of Wally West and Stephanie Brown. That doesn't make the DC universe smaller, the focus of the stories just hasn't included every character yet.

[Dominic]

They told fun stories with it. They salvaged the Golden Age characters that had been around for a decade and had enjoyed some success during that time. What else did they need to do with the multiverse concept?

Write good comics maybe?


Most of the multiverse stories from before "Crisis on Infinite Earths" were terrible. They were extremely predictable, even by the standards of Silver Age comics. Reading "Crisis on Earth X" was like reading the same comic 2 or three times in a row. ("Heroes defeat McGuffin machine.") I have seen 16 and 8 bit video games with more intricate plots.

And with his head blown off, nothing good would ever be done with him. It was a waste of a good character.

How was it a waste? Johns got some use out of a character that was not being used for anything. (Having a character around and not doing anything is a waste.) I am not a fan of Johns, but I can see his logic in killing Ted Kord. He wanted to kick off his era-ending run with something that would resonate. Killing off a major character from 20 years ago is not the worst way to do that.

They can write comics about new characters.

You may have liked Ted Kord. But, he was a minor character. And, nobody had used him for years. (The last relevant thing he did before "Infinite Crisis" was get jobbed by Doomsday in '92.) Did I spend time crying about

Spoiler

Hound

up in the "Re-Generation One" thread? No.

Spoiler

Hound, despite my fondness for the character, was not terribly important.

And, given that the current arc in "Re-Generation One" involves the characters facing an existential thread, it makes sense for some of those characters to die.

I wouldn't say they contracted again with the New 52. If anything, it appears that New 52 actually expanded the multiverse a bit seeing how the Earth 2 characters exist in a separate universe again.

True enough Sparky.

The only consistent use of the multiverse after the "Crisis Trilogy" was the "Earth 1" comics. And, those were graphic novels that nobody in their right mind expected to see cross-over or have anything to do with mainline DC. (As much as I would like to count "Multiversity", it never actually happened. There was set-up, but it was never delivered.

"Earth 2" is a on-going book that is using the multiverse concept.

How many characters are simply gone with the New 52? I'm thinking largely of legacy characters here. We're starting to get some back in one form or another (Wally West, Ted Kord), but the DC universe is definitely smaller than it was when it comes to the available pool of characters.

If the big two allowed for passage of time, I would be more bothered by this.

If we assume more or less real time, the Huntress would be old enough to be a grandmother by now. (Figure that she was ~20 in the late 70s. That would put her in her late 50s now, meaning she could have a grown child of her own and possibly a grand-child.) Seeing legacy characters in a setting that did not insist on keeping the originals around in perpetuity would be intersting. But, simply adding more to a generally stagnant setting just clutters things up.

[andersonh1]

Most of the multiverse stories from before "Crisis on Infinite Earths" were terrible. They were extremely predictable, even by the standards of Silver Age comics. Reading "Crisis on Earth X" was like reading the same comic 2 or three times in a row. ("Heroes defeat McGuffin machine.")

How many of those multiverse stories have you read to arrive at this conclusion?

I've read three so far. The first two Flash crossovers and the first JLA/JSA meeting. I'd say I have far firmer ground to stand on in critiquing those stories than you do, assuming you've never actually read them.

How was it a waste? Johns got some use out of a character that was not being used for anything.

The solution to having a character that isn't being used is to put him/her to use. Not write one last story and kill them off so whatever potential they have is gone for good.

[Dominic]

I read two or three compilations worth of those cross-overs.

They generally play out something like:
-heroes from two worlds meet up.
-heroes from two worlds identify threat or problem that obligates them to work together (possibly on both worlds).
-heroes split in to two or more mixed teams.
-cue scenes of various teams dealing with threat/problem of the day.
-everybody reconvenes.
-everybody goes home.

If the events were not so predictable, maybe I would be more willing to read this sort of comic.

[andersonh1]

I'm glad to hear you've actually read some of the stories. Fair enough, but we're not going to agree. I loved Flash of Two Worlds. I wish I'd tracked it down and read it years ago. I love seeing the characters from both universes cross over and interact. I'm not sure I expect or need much more than that, honestly.

[andersonh1]

I remember this story. Still have the issues.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.co ... oast-city/

If nothing else, it proves editorially mandated storyline changes didn't start with the New 52.

[Dominic]

I looked over the article linked above. All I could think when reading the scanned pages was "Oh my, Hal is taking this awfully well." He looks like a guy who just lost his job or got a divorce. And, while that would be a bad place to be, it beats the hell out of being the guy who just lost his hometown and a significant number of people who knew (aside of course from the important characters who happened to have left town before the bad thing happened).

The thing about "Emerald Twilight" that always made sense was that Hal *should* have gone crazy after losing Coast City. (I am pretty sure that if Boston, or even a part of Boston were destroyed, I would not handle it as well as Hal was shown to have initially handled the loss of Coast City. And, I am not even responsible to the city ot its people.)


Dom
-currently reading through "Scourge of the Underworld", which more fun than one might expect given how macabre the concept is.