The Transformers (IDW, formerly "Robots in Disguise")

[andersonh1]

I think what bugs me about the last panel with him just standing there side by side with the Decepticons is just how far can you push a character until it's just plain "out of character". You know, to the point where it's no longer believable that the character would do what they're doing. Now, I'm quite there yet, mostly because Prowl is basically the Autobot's version of Shockwave: Logical to a fault. Maybe this is just what he sees as the logical thing to do and it may bite him in the ass as a result. Even Spock once said that "Logic can be used to justify almost anything" and that seems to be the territory we're getting into here.

I think what might be bothering Anderson (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) is that characters are established as having a certain morality or a line that they absolutely would not cross and that to have that character cross that line makes the story no longer believable. And I think maybe he believes that Prowl has reached that point and crossed that line. Maybe it's a little more palletable to me having seen the slow progression from where he was in Infiltration to where he is now. It wasn't an overnight change so I see how the character has evolved into this.

I can see how Prowl got from where he was to where he is, so I'm not going to say it's out of character per se. IDW has done a good job of taking the character on a journey, it's just hit the point where Prowl is descending into types of behavior that I hate to see him engaging in. See my comment on Dom's statement below. I agree with you, if it had happened overnight I'd have problems suspending disbelief. Witness all the fuss over Prowl breaking cover in Costa's Transformers #1... readers saw that as out of character, because it came from nowhere. IDW published Spotlight Prowl to try and explain it away (and that's a book I really enjoyed by the way, which may also explain why I hate seeing Prowl go 180 degrees in the other direction).

Prowl arguably is aiming higher. "End the War. Keep the Peace." This is pretty obviously an example of the idea of becoming a monster while fighting them.

Well put. That is exactly what's happening to Prowl. And he doesn't even see it.

[Dominic]

The thing that Prowl and I were so confused on is why it is such a problem for you to see Prowl used in this way. The whole point is that a well-intentioned individual can go bad if they become obsessive and stop being picky about their methods.

Seriously, it’s kinda funny though, since Roberts and Roche intended Rotorstorm and crew to be ‘likeable’, so that the audience would be more shocked/surprised when they were so casually offed. But your personality and how you perceive characters caused you to view them as the complete opposite, and you took something different away from the story (or at least the part where the funny, likeable, relatable characters were callously sacrificed for the cold, pragmatic, bureaucrat’s ‘greater good’ ideals). Inneresting!

Are you sure they were supposed to be likeable? They struck me as being insufferable twits, very much like fan identification, or even fanfic, characters usually are.


Dom

[andersonh1]

The thing that Prowl and I were so confused on is why it is such a problem for you to see Prowl used in this way. The whole point is that a well-intentioned individual can go bad if they become obsessive and stop being picky about their methods.

Until we see the end of the story, I'm not so sure that is the point. In any case, as I've said many times, I hate to see a good character go bad. I don't find a "descent to the dark side" story arc for a good character as compelling as you and Prowl do.

[BWprowl]

The thing that Prowl and I were so confused on is why it is such a problem for you to see Prowl used in this way. The whole point is that a well-intentioned individual can go bad if they become obsessive and stop being picky about their methods.

Well yeah, but Anderson dislikes seeing Prowl 'used up' (I think is the best way I can put it) to make that point. He feels that a more scrupulous Prowl would be more pleasant to read about.

Are you sure they were supposed to be likeable? They struck me as being insufferable twits, very much like fan identification, or even fanfic, characters usually are.

Okay, re-read that carefully. Did you ever wonder why 'fan-identification' characters come off that way? They are generally written specifically to appeal to the fans reading on their level, and make them like them because of that. Roberts got up in front of fans when they were promoting LSotW and literally told them "Ironfist is YOU!". When guys like that die in unexpected, stupid ways, we're not supposed to go "Alright, I'm glad that guy died, he was annoying me!", we're supposed to be taken aback, "Oh man, that guy died! I liked him and grew attached to him over the course of the story because I could identify with him on some level and that made me form an attachment!"

You, on the other hand, with your complete distaste for the fandom at large and anything that pleases or appeals to them, found nothing but contempt for these characters, and read the story with the *opposite* of the 'intended' emotional response when they got killed. Like I said, it's inneresting, is all.

(Seriously, I dare you to ask around. You'll find that the majority of readers loved Rotorstorm, Ironfist, and even Pyro, and were shocked and saddened when they wound up killed.)

[Dominic]

Okay, maybe I did misread "Last Stand of the Wreckers". But, I honestly thought that Ironfist and co were *intended* to be obnoxious. I mean, just look at them....

Seriously, we were supposed to like them? Really?

Pyro: Bawwwww, but I look like Prime! I am special!

I,....I do not know what to say.

Until we see the end of the story, I'm not so sure that is the point. In any case, as I've said many times, I hate to see a good character go bad. I don't find a "descent to the dark side" story arc for a good character as compelling as you and Prowl do.

So, would you rather see a good character stay good in a bad comic, (such as the "Mars Attacks" cross over), or see a good character go bad in a *good* comic?


Dom
-reimaging a drive now.

[Onslaught Six]

Pyro's Prime obsession was annoying, sure, but over the course of the series, he realized that "being like Optimus Prime" meant an entirely different thing than what he thought it did.

Pyro thought "being like Optimus Prime" meant having a faceplate and being row-row-fight-Decepticons and getting trophies and statues made in your honour and having legends told about you. The reality of the situation is that Optimus Prime became as famous and revered as he did not because he wanted to be, but because he was willing to sacrifice himself for an ideal--because he was willing to sacrifice his own body and life for others, no matter the cost.

People like to mock that G1 issue where he "kills himself because he lost at a video game," but the reality is that inside that simulation, Optimus Prime let innocent people die, and he couldn't live with himself knowing that he did that--because if he did it in a simulation, he very well might do it in real life, too. (For a robotic being, I'm sure the line between "reality" and "virtual reality" would be a lot more blurred. To them, it's all 0s and 1s.)

Pyro realized that if he really wanted to be like Optimus Prime, he had to do it because it was the right thing to do--not for selfish reasons like glory or fame. And in the end, that's what he did.


Side note: Were there people who actually expected any of these characters to make it out alive? Wreckers are all 'about' dying unceremoniously. They talk it up in the first issue or two! That's precisely 'why' Roche and Roberts bother to make them all likeable (in their own ways), because it's sad right from the moment you start liking them because you *already* know they're going to die horribly.

[BWprowl]

People like to mock that G1 issue where he "kills himself because he lost at a video game," but the reality is that inside that simulation, Optimus Prime let innocent people die, and he couldn't live with himself knowing that he did that--because if he did it in a simulation, he very well might do it in real life, too. (For a robotic being, I'm sure the line between "reality" and "virtual reality" would be a lot more blurred. To them, it's all 0s and 1s.)

Hey, I like that issue! Especially for the stories it set up for, that was a decent chunk of comic afterwards. We wouldn't have 'Gone But Not Forgotten' without that story, after all.

Pyro realized that if he really wanted to be like Optimus Prime, he had to do it because it was the right thing to do--not for selfish reasons like glory or fame. And in the end, that's what he did.

Also, hey, I'm sure the fans reading this comic *totally* couldn't relate to a guy that admired and wanted to be like Optimus Prime!

Side note: Were there people who actually expected any of these characters to make it out alive? Wreckers are all 'about' dying unceremoniously. They talk it up in the first issue or two! That's precisely 'why' Roche and Roberts bother to make them all likeable (in their own ways), because it's sad right from the moment you start liking them because you *already* know they're going to die horribly.

Well you got that, and I got that, and a lot of the other kids playing at home got that, but Dom apparently misinterpreted everyone's characterization. Like you just pointed out, they specifically say that one of the major themes is "Good people dying in horrible ways", not "Annoying people getting what's coming to them" the way Dom apparently read it.

[Dominic]

Fair point. You are probably right.

I just could not see how they were supposed to be characters the audience would root for. They were like text book examples of fan identification/insertion characters to the point of almost being a parody of them, ya know? And, really, who the hell likes that sort of character?


Dom
-now feels a measure of shame for enjoying Rotorstorm's death so much....

[BWprowl]

I just could not see how they were supposed to be characters the audience would root for. They were like text book examples of fan identification/insertion characters to the point of almost being a parody of them, ya know?

Oh for-

They *were* text-book examples of fan-identification characters because the *fans* were supposed to identify and sympathize with them! That is what they were! They were specifically written to be like that because their entire point in the story was to get fans and readers to like and 'root for' them, so their inevitable deaths would have impact! The fans being able to identify with them is what made them likeable!

And, really, who the hell likes that sort of character?

FANS! The audience! The people reading the book! Everyone but you (seriously, ask around)! Me! I loved Ironfist and Rotorstorm! Rotorstorm was funny! Ironfist was adorable and it was sad when he died!

Jesus!

[Onslaught Six]

I just could not see how they were supposed to be characters the audience would root for. They were like text book examples of fan identification/insertion characters to the point of almost being a parody of them, ya know?

Oh for-

They *were* text-book examples of fan-identification characters because the *fans* were supposed to identify and sympathize with them! That is what they were! They were specifically written to be like that because their entire point in the story was to get fans and readers to like and 'root for' them, so their inevitable deaths would have impact! The fans being able to identify with them is what made them likeable!

And, really, who the hell likes that sort of character?

FANS! The audience! The people reading the book! Everyone but you (seriously, ask around)! Me! I loved Ironfist and Rotorstorm! Rotorstorm was funny! Ironfist was adorable and it was sad when he died!

Jesus!