Comics are Awesome II

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Dominic
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

Post by Dominic »

Then it becomes "why work harder now when you can just take steroids later?" until finally it's just "take steroids all the time". Nobody wants to watch sports full of juiced-out maniacs for long (except wrestling, oh, wait, I said "sport", sorry Dom ).
For the record, I only personally know of a few guys who have used steroids. (Sorry. I needed to defend the business.) I know more than a few others who are wholly clean, and will not even smoke or drink.

(their TF backs are way wider selection than anyone else in the area, but also have a lot of DW mixed in).
Pick up "War Within" if you can find it. DW's "Armada" series was also pretty good.

How can they ever forger something they've NEVER known? They've created the line-wide reboot event and suffered these exact same fuckups, WORSE EVERY TIME I MIGHT ADD, 3 times at least, and have learned nothing for those troubles - instead actively doing it again and again as if it wasn't a huge fuckup that turned the DC brand into a joke even outside the comics industry and faithful.
The original Crisis was not viewed this negatively. (And, how did Crisis ruin comic events for you?)

Until the 90s, the comics industry as a whole understood that first issues sold higher and that new titles eventually settled into a "natural sales level". In fact, up until the 90s books with low numbers were assumed to sell worse than high-numbered books. (The higher-numbered books had longevity and thus more credibility.)

That was forgotten in the 90s, and books were expected to be running "first issue" sales numbers every issue. By the end of the decade, the publishers seemed to have remembered how thing really worked. The guy at the local comic shop pointed out that most of DC's New 52 are actually selling at healthy levels and consistently after making allowances for the books "settling" after the initial curiosity value wears off.

They are going to be smart and wise to cheap tricks, they are going to be discriminating and thoughtful about the way they take in advertising and the way they shop - in other words, they are impossible for lazy, corporate assholes to tempt out of their own boxes. So as the audience ages out and thins out from disinterest, readership goes down and the books are too isolated to draw in much new audience.
You are giving comics and sci-fi fans too much credit for being thoughtful and discriminating. Buying something because it is "____________" is as bad as not buying something for not being "________________". Comic fans will buy out of habit or absurd devotion to a given character more than anything else. (Marvel fans are actually known for being a bit worse about this than DC fans.) They are likely to go along for the ride for the cheap trick, even when they know it is a cheap trick.

But, when they leave, they are not likely to come back.

Every time the price goes up, a certain amount of readers are lost. Then the price needs to be raised to keep up the profit margin so the book continues to make money, and to cover employment and production costs. The price goes up and more people drop the book. It's a vicious cycle.

I've been reading comics since 1989. I remember paying 75 cents each for many of DC's mainline books. While I understand that inflation is always a factor, it's not hard to look back at those prices and look at today's $3.00 and $4.00 books and question whether I'm still getting the same value for a book that costs three to five times as much money. In most cases, the answer is no, and I suspect I'm not the only one looking at things that way.
I currently have 6 books on my obligatory list. That works out to ~$20 a month plus compilations and random books I pick up. I am willing to spend $3 or $4 per book. But, I want my money's worth in terms of writing. I would rather spend $4 for a quicker, but better, read than even 50c for a bad read. B

20 years ago, comics that were worth picking up ranged between $1.50 and $2. Some of the more expensive books were $2.50. About ten years back, comics were creeping up tothe $3 mark, with $4 or $5 not being unheard of, if still rare. By that logic, comics ranging between $3 and $4 is about right. But, because we are adults, we "feel" it more.
Obviously some price issues are at play there, but we're at $4 a book, that's nearly 300% higher than inflation says it should be, it is hard to see where that money is going from our point of view
Comics are not the only thing that is going up faster than inflation though.

When I came up, the books were on pulp instead of glossy pages, and there were sponsored ads spread throughout the book instead of mostly in-house ads at the end, and there were less colors available. Comics publishers still adhered to the CCA. There were less titles, and less competing publishers. There were more distributors and more non-specialty locations carried the books.
Printing techniques and paper type do matter. I am not familiar enough with the technical details. But, there is a certain "weirdness" to some reprints where the publishers did not correct for that sort of thing (printing old content on newer paper for example).

Would I accept ads throughout the books again to save money? Not likely, they disrupt the reading flow and they're generally not valuable to the advertiser at this point by how few eyes will stop on them.
Publications are supposed to make money through ads. Circulation should never pay more than distribution and/or printing. DC comics runs car ads. That had damned well better be bringing in the bucks.



Dom
-admits to be planning a purge at the moment.
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JediTricks
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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Dominic wrote:
Then it becomes "why work harder now when you can just take steroids later?" until finally it's just "take steroids all the time". Nobody wants to watch sports full of juiced-out maniacs for long (except wrestling, oh, wait, I said "sport", sorry Dom ).
For the record, I only personally know of a few guys who have used steroids. (Sorry. I needed to defend the business.) I know more than a few others who are wholly clean, and will not even smoke or drink.
Dude, you let the "not a sport" crack pass?!? Or was calling it "the business" a tacit agreement that pro and semi-pro wrasslin' is as much a sport as "Disney On Ice"?
Pick up "War Within" if you can find it. DW's "Armada" series was also pretty good.
No WWi, plenty of mixed issues of Armada, but even at $1 a pop for unmarked issues, no thanks, can't go back that far for anything open-ended.


I have to stop here, I have badly mismanaged my time today and now have other stuff I have to be doing. Sorry about that.
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Dominic
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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"Armada" only ran for 18 issues.

Dude, you let the "not a sport" crack pass?!? Or was calling it "the business" a tacit agreement that pro and semi-pro wrasslin' is as much a sport as "Disney On Ice"?
I was more concerned with addressing the 'roids thing.

Calling it "the business" is the standard way of talking about wrestling. (I am neither wrestler nor promoter. But, I have been on the edges of the business long enough to figure that I can get away with using a certain amount of lingo. Of course, more than a few of the guys are suprised to find out that I know carny, so....)


Wrestling is *very* demanding physically. Those guys have to train, then they go out and work for shows and then they go and work their day jobs. One of the guys I talk to used to do MMA. He has pointed out that he was more likely to get hurt wrestling than he was in an MMA match. (This was largely due to the fact that in wrestling he was more likely to fall great distances. A planned fall is still a fall.)


Dom
-can attest to the physical demands based on having tried it.
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

Post by JediTricks »

Dominic wrote:"Armada" only ran for 18 issues.
Yeah, and that's 18 back issues I don't want to have track down for a story I don't care about anymore.
I was more concerned with addressing the 'roids thing.

Calling it "the business" is the standard way of talking about wrestling. (I am neither wrestler nor promoter. But, I have been on the edges of the business long enough to figure that I can get away with using a certain amount of lingo. Of course, more than a few of the guys are suprised to find out that I know carny, so....)
I know, they call it "the business" because it's show business, not real sport. It's as scripted as Disney on Ice.
Wrestling is *very* demanding physically. Those guys have to train, then they go out and work for shows and then they go and work their day jobs. One of the guys I talk to used to do MMA. He has pointed out that he was more likely to get hurt wrestling than he was in an MMA match. (This was largely due to the fact that in wrestling he was more likely to fall great distances. A planned fall is still a fall.)
Yes, I'm sure Disney on Ice is also very physically demanding, doesn't make it a sport. ;)
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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Ok, so picking up from where I left off yesterday...
The original Crisis was not viewed this negatively. (And, how did Crisis ruin comic events for you?)
The original Crisis was exceptionally controversial when it came out, I was there, my mom was a big fan at the time, we had two passes a week at the local comic store (that's the one where she got Frank Miller's autograph on DKR). Opinions smoothed out as the story became "the past" and DC moved forward past the big hurdles, but it was massively controversial.

Crisis was a mess, there were a ton of crossover titles before and after that were hard to follow and inconsistently written, characters were being rebooted at different times so the Post-Crisis characters were interacting with Pre-Crisis characters, Wonder Girl who had been featuring heavily in New Teen Titans got a very clumsy and awkward and slow reboot... AND THEN ALL OF IT GETS SHIT ON WHEN DC SALES LAG AND THEY NEED ANOTHER 'CRISIS' EVENT TO BOOST SALES! Talk about unrewarding as a young reader.
Until the 90s, the comics industry as a whole understood that first issues sold higher and that new titles eventually settled into a "natural sales level". In fact, up until the 90s books with low numbers were assumed to sell worse than high-numbered books. (The higher-numbered books had longevity and thus more credibility.)

That was forgotten in the 90s, and books were expected to be running "first issue" sales numbers every issue. By the end of the decade, the publishers seemed to have remembered how thing really worked. The guy at the local comic shop pointed out that most of DC's New 52 are actually selling at healthy levels and consistently after making allowances for the books "settling" after the initial curiosity value wears off.
Another reason Crisis fucked things up, post-Crisis #1 sales became an addiction. The only thing as damaging IMO is the speculation with all its trappings, such as variant covers, when comic books stopped being stories and started being investments.
I currently have 6 books on my obligatory list. That works out to ~$20 a month plus compilations and random books I pick up. I am willing to spend $3 or $4 per book. But, I want my money's worth in terms of writing. I would rather spend $4 for a quicker, but better, read than even 50c for a bad read.
There are very few pages in books as it is, so it already feels like a quick read. I don't think it takes more than 30 minutes to get through an issue, that's not a good value of entertainment-time for the pricetag, so it really is more about thinking about it and talking about it which gives comics their value after initial read.
20 years ago, comics that were worth picking up ranged between $1.50 and $2. Some of the more expensive books were $2.50. About ten years back, comics were creeping up tothe $3 mark, with $4 or $5 not being unheard of, if still rare. By that logic, comics ranging between $3 and $4 is about right. But, because we are adults, we "feel" it more.
The industry doesn't yet know if the younger audiences will actually be able to take it. Just like our toy prices discussion, the industry really doesn't know what kids and parents are willing to look at as the next reasonable value, so they're basically shooting blind. I don't think I've seen a kid in a comic shop in years now, unless it's for trading cards, and the comic racks at TRU must sell through to justify their existence - they're on the action figure aisles and they don't carry IDW, only DC, Marvel, and Dark Horse... were I TRU, I'd want those IDW titles because those are a third of the toy brands! So I dunno what the future will hold, but it'll likely be driven by adult sales.
Comics are not the only thing that is going up faster than inflation though.
Yeah, but they're on a very short list of things that are selling artwork instead of physical goods. At the end of the day, most modern comic issues have very little value beyond their content.
Publications are supposed to make money through ads. Circulation should never pay more than distribution and/or printing. DC comics runs car ads. That had damned well better be bringing in the bucks.
That's a pretty old business model, I'd be interested to see the profit centers for comics today compared to that, I doubt the ads are driving profits, especially with circulation so low these days.
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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I know, they call it "the business" because it's show business, not real sport. It's as scripted as Disney on Ice.
Wrestling is athleticism, peformance art and improv. Calling it a sport is arguably an undersell.

There are very few pages in books as it is, so it already feels like a quick read. I don't think it takes more than 30 minutes to get through an issue, that's not a good value of entertainment-time for the pricetag, so it really is more about thinking about it and talking about it which gives comics their value after initial read.
Even putting aside discussion value, I would still take quality over quantity. (I know that it is counter to how most fans view it. But, I would rather have no comics than bad comics.) My comics dollar is better spent on fewer, but better, pages.

The industry doesn't yet know if the younger audiences will actually be able to take it. Just like our toy prices discussion, the industry really doesn't know what kids and parents are willing to look at as the next reasonable value, so they're basically shooting blind. I don't think I've seen a kid in a comic shop in years now, unless it's for trading cards, and the comic racks at TRU must sell through to justify their existence - they're on the action figure aisles and they don't carry IDW, only DC, Marvel, and Dark Horse... were I TRU, I'd want those IDW titles because those are a third of the toy brands! So I dunno what the future will hold, but it'll likely be driven by adult sales.
There are adults who cannnot handle the prices. Kids are really going to feel the bit.

I can see being wary about stocking IDW at TRU. How carefully do the vet the Marvel and DC comics they stock? I would be interested to see what would happen if "Last Stand of the Wreckers" or "All Hail Megatron" were on sale at TrU. Scourge and I have joked about "Batman: The Killing Joke" being sold to kids.


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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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Dominic wrote:I can see being wary about stocking IDW at TRU. How carefully do the vet the Marvel and DC comics they stock? I would be interested to see what would happen if "Last Stand of the Wreckers" or "All Hail Megatron" were on sale at TrU. Scourge and I have joked about "Batman: The Killing Joke" being sold to kids.
I don't know what criteria they choose their books at TRU, they had Batman books and Star Wars books and such. I would think based on the Batman covers they were probably buying blind based on the most popular brand-oriented titles from the biggest publishers. To be honest, there is pain and consequences in LSOTW, if a kid were to pick that up over a Batman book where someone gets their face smashed to bloody bits by the Bat and everybody's fine with that, I wouldn't mind too much. Both titles are too much violence for the kiddie set, but at least LSOTW has meaning behind its violence, people suffer and are in pain over the deaths and violence in the aftermath of Garrus 9.
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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Some of the worst bits in "Last Stand of the Wreckers" would like go over a kids head. The problem is that the kid would recognize that something went over their head in that case.....and maybe ask mommy or daddy. (Imagine a kid asking about the 2 accounts of the last fight with Squadron X.) And, then it is on
the parents' radar. The kid is simply going to "get" Batman punching a guy to a bloody pulp, so they will have not need to ask mommy and daddy about it. The same problem could apply with some of the Morrison "Superman" comics.


On the other hand, IDW will be selling comics with their toys soon.


Oh, and hey, comics for this week:

-Age of Ultron #5:
The heroes are split on how far they will go in changing history less than on if they will change history. (Sue Storm is depicted as squeamish about it. But, she offers little real debate about changing history in principle.) Wolverine wants to take the safest possible option and kill Hank Pym in the past while several others are content to warn Pym not to build Ultron to begin with. If Marvel is not setting up for a "Crisis" level reboot, they are still acting like they are going that route. The discussion about the Vision seems to reference "Avengers Disassembled" more than anything else, lending cred to the theory that this series was delayed despite being "done" some time ago, and that it was likely meant to be an "Avengers" arc rather than a series unto itself. And, because this is an event book, Stark ends up back in the MKII (late 70s early 80s) armour.
Grade: B


Team 7 #7:
This issue does not much flow from the last, likely because the creative team is trying to wrap the series up by next issue. The story hews pretty closely to the series' concept of showing how the world's regimes try to incorporate superhumans in to their arsenals (5 years ago in context) and ends with the team trying to disarm a rogue state that has developed meta-human bio-technology. If the last page cliff-hanger is anything to go by, (to say nothing of the fact that the fictional country and its leader have yet to show up in the "current" new 52, things are not looking good for the island nation in question.
Grade: B/C



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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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Dominic wrote:Some of the worst bits in "Last Stand of the Wreckers" would like go over a kids head. The problem is that the kid would recognize that something went over their head in that case.....and maybe ask mommy or daddy. (Imagine a kid asking about the 2 accounts of the last fight with Squadron X.)
Honestly, that could lead into a good discussion about ethics, war crimes, and the like. It might be a good teachable moment for the parent to talk with the kid about that part and ask them "Do you know why what Impactor did was bad?"
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Re: Comics are Awesome II

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It depends on the age of the kid and the sophistication of the parent. And, that is the problem. How many parents would simply decide that their kid should not be reading "that stuff"?

(I would argue that the question should be *if* what Impactor did was really that bad.)
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