Readers, and Johns himself, believe the creators of the ‘New 52’ comics, in part incorrectly inspired by what they thought was a manifesto in Watchmen, are to blame for the loss of many beloved storylines and distinctive tones across DC’s pantheon. The ‘New 52’, and the direction DC films have gone in lately, have homogenized DC’s characters as grim spectacles, punching up giant foes and not feeling anything in particular for their teammates. Johns, and DC, have made the stunning choice to embody that extra-textual threat in Dr. Manhattan, who will be the literal foe for Batman and the rest of DC’s heroes, moving forward. “I promise it’s not going to be Batman and company punching Dr. Manhattan a bunch of times. That’s not how you combat something like this,” Johns says, laughing.
Comics are Awesome III
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andersonh1
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Re: Comics are Awesome III
Interview with Geoff Johns: https://www.inverse.com/article/15992-d ... ost-heroes
Re: Comics are Awesome III
Why does everything Johns writes sound like fanfic?
Did anybody want "Watchmen" brought in as part of the DC multiverse, with Manhattan as the creator?
Did anybody want "Watchmen" brought in as part of the DC multiverse, with Manhattan as the creator?
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andersonh1
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Re: Comics are Awesome III
If Johns can use Watchmen to fix what's wrong with DC, I'm all for it. There's nothing sacrosanct about that story. It may as well be put to good use, thirty years down the line.
Re: Comics are Awesome III
I am not saying that "Watchmen" is sacred. (In fact, I am not much a fan of Moore. i would prefer "Watchmen" be kept away from mainline DC.)
But, do "Watchmen" fans want this? It smells like DC is desperately trying to fix their comics by piggy-backing on something from 30 years ago.
In practical terms, this probably kills any chance of getting follow-up to "Multiversity", especially "Pax Americana". That does bother me.
But, do "Watchmen" fans want this? It smells like DC is desperately trying to fix their comics by piggy-backing on something from 30 years ago.
In practical terms, this probably kills any chance of getting follow-up to "Multiversity", especially "Pax Americana". That does bother me.
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Sparky Prime
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Re: Comics are Awesome III
How exactly would you piggy-back a story that's nearly 30 years old? I mean, I could maybe see calling it piggy-backing if they were doing this a year or two after Watchmen was first published, but not 30 years later. Watchmen isn't something fresh in readers minds, nor is it exactly all that relevant to today's comics. Besides, based on Johns previous work, he has a bit of a habit of taking old ideas and making them work in new and interesting ways. I've noticed a lot of his work is initially met with a lot of skepticism, but generally turns out to be pretty good once all is said and done. I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt here.Dominic wrote:It smells like DC is desperately trying to fix their comics by piggy-backing on something from 30 years ago.
How so? As far as DiDio said in that interview andersonh1 posted a few days ago, Rebirth is only focused on the core DC universe. They aren't touching the multiverse, and they've confirmed Earth 2 will be continuing.In practical terms, this probably kills any chance of getting follow-up to "Multiversity", especially "Pax Americana". That does bother me.
Re: Comics are Awesome III
Awkwardly.How exactly would you piggy-back a story that's nearly 30 years old?
DC is trying to fix their brand, and their best idea is to build off of something from 30 years ago, that was never meant to be connected to anything.
Having "Watchmen" on the board at all makes "Pax Americana" (essentially a riff on "Watchmen") specifically redundant. And, if I read the spoilers right, Manhattan is responsible for the "mistake" of the new 52 (which ended up being the multiverse as mapped in "Multiversity"). It is unlikely that DC will built much from "Multiversity", or the discarded foundation it set.How so? As far as DiDio said in that interview andersonh1 posted a few days ago, Rebirth is only focused on the core DC universe. They aren't touching the multiverse, and they've confirmed Earth 2 will be continuing.
And, if DC is going to take a bright and sunny turn, I *really* doubt we are going to see more of "Master Men", my favourite "Multiversity" one-shot.
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Sparky Prime
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Re: Comics are Awesome III
Like I said, Johns deserves the benefit of the doubt. A lot of this stories are initially met with skepticism but generally turn out to be pretty good.Dominic wrote:Awkwardly.
DC is trying to fix their brand, and their best idea is to build off of something from 30 years ago, that was never meant to be connected to anything.
One could argue the whole idea of a multiverse is full of redundant characters in the first place. With the original JSA back in the Prime DC universe, that kinda makes the Earth 2 characters redundant. But yet, they are very different versions of the same characters. The Pax Americana characters is the same deal in that they might have been based on the Watchmen characters, but they are very different versions of those characters. There's no reason to believe DC would discard any of those ideas at this point, especially given they've specifically said they aren't touching the multiverse as they want to just focus on rebuilding the core DC universe.Having "Watchmen" on the board at all makes "Pax Americana" (essentially a riff on "Watchmen") specifically redundant. And, if I read the spoilers right, Manhattan is responsible for the "mistake" of the new 52 (which ended up being the multiverse as mapped in "Multiversity"). It is unlikely that DC will built much from "Multiversity", or the discarded foundation it set.
And, if DC is going to take a bright and sunny turn, I *really* doubt we are going to see more of "Master Men", my favourite "Multiversity" one-shot.
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andersonh1
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Re: Comics are Awesome III
I picked up Batman 66/Man From UNCLE #6, Superman: Lois and Clark #8 (both conclude those mini-series) and Rebirth #1 today.
Rebirth #1
This is obviously the big one for the week. The whole book is one big mea culpa from DC about the New 52, since the entire narrative is about what's been lost ever since Flashpoint. And as one of those long-time fans DC is obviously groveling to, I'm happy to see it. It takes a big man to admit when you made a mistake...
That aside, I get a few of the Watchmen references, even though I still haven't read it. The book begins with a narrator describing a watch that was passed down from his father and grandfather, with the art showing the gears and other components in fine detail. And then the narrator talks about losing it, and losing himself, and how the world has changed and forgotten him, but he's determined to try and get out to warn everyone, because he knows what has happened. The narrator is of course Wally West, trapped in the Speed Force ever since the Flashpoint, until a recent event opened the door just enough for him to attempt to escape. If he fails, he'll be absorbed into the Speed Force to forget his life and ultimately die forgotten, as many speedsters before him have done.
The book takes some time to run through Wally's life, from his first meeting with Barry Allen back in the Silver Age, to how he became Kid Flash, to the change to the red and yellow costume. The artist recreates scenes from Crisis where he takes up the role of the Flash after Barry's death, and ultimately we see the panel from the end of Flash Rebirth with all the various Flash related characters. Wally says for a moment his life was perfect, and then it was all taken away.
From here, the plot is Wally West making contact with or observing various DC characters, trying to find that anchor that will draw him out of the Speed Force and back to reality. It used to be his wife Linda Park, but he has been unable to find her. He contacts Batman, and tells him to remember the letter from Thomas Wayne that Barry Allen brought back from the alternate reality of the Flashpoint, before being pulled back into the Speed Force. He sees that New 52 Superman has died. He seems Ted Kord and Jaime Reyes. The original Doctor Fate appears. He finds Johnny Thunder in an old folks home, and it's implied that Johnny is responsible for the JSA vanishing from history. He watches Aquaman propose to Mera. It's a whole tableau of characters or situations that have been written out of continuity, but Wally remembers them as they were. He does ultimately find Linda Park at last, but she does not remember him, which really hits him hard as one might expect, and he almost gives up.
But he decides to give it one last try before he dies and is absorbed, and so he goes to find Barry Allen. Barry doesn't remember him either, and Wally accepts his fate graciously, telling Barry thank you for his life and all the memories. At the last moment, Barry remembers Wally, wondering how he could ever forget, and is able to save him from being being lost in the Speed Force. Wally tells him about Flashpoint, and that a decade has been stolen from all of them, and relationships have been severed, and that Barry was not responsible. He may have caused the Flashpoint, but when he was restoring the timeline, someone else intervened and changed it all. Back in the Batcave, Batman finds the smiley face with the bullet wound in the wall of the Batcave. The epilogue shows a watch being assembled by unseen hands on Mars, and someone quoting Watchmen.
Looks like I'd better read it so I know what's going on here. Oh, and Pandora is killed mid-story by an unseen individual.
Overall: As I said before, if DC hadn't thrown all of this away, they wouldn't have to come up with a convoluted way to restore it now. It's a little ironic that all it takes to get people talking about DC again is to take a bunch of characters and stories away, then give them back five years later. Of course, that's not all there is to it. Johns is clearly integrating Watchmen into the main DC Universe, and even in the absence of all the spoilers this past weekend, that comes across very clearly. Getting the genuine Wally West back is something I've wanted to see for a long time now, and Johns even explains away the young black New 52 Wally by making him a distant cousin that Wally knew about but never met. He's a relative of Iris's brother apparently. And that's fine. There's also some hints that New 52 Superman was never really Superman at all, so there are a number of retcons being put into place in this issue. It's probably fairly convoluted to the new reader, but then DC spent five years trying to attract new readers, only for sales to crash and burn after the initial publicity of the New 52 wore off. DC You was an abject failure in about every way. So having failed at bringing in new readers, DC has wisely decided to go all out in catering to the old ones.
It's a good, solid attempt at a major band-aid by Geoff Johns, who has always had a good head for continuity and how to use it. I will definitely try out and read more books than I have been for the past few years, and if the characters feel right and the stories are good, DC will get more of my money. If they're not, my buying habits will dwindle away just as they did after the New 52.
Dom, it looks like that "Flash by Mark Waid" volume counts after all. It's going to be some consolation if after five years of neglect and attempted race-bending of the character by DC, the original Wally West ends up being the character used to save the DC Universe from a fate worse than death.
Rebirth #1
This is obviously the big one for the week. The whole book is one big mea culpa from DC about the New 52, since the entire narrative is about what's been lost ever since Flashpoint. And as one of those long-time fans DC is obviously groveling to, I'm happy to see it. It takes a big man to admit when you made a mistake...
That aside, I get a few of the Watchmen references, even though I still haven't read it. The book begins with a narrator describing a watch that was passed down from his father and grandfather, with the art showing the gears and other components in fine detail. And then the narrator talks about losing it, and losing himself, and how the world has changed and forgotten him, but he's determined to try and get out to warn everyone, because he knows what has happened. The narrator is of course Wally West, trapped in the Speed Force ever since the Flashpoint, until a recent event opened the door just enough for him to attempt to escape. If he fails, he'll be absorbed into the Speed Force to forget his life and ultimately die forgotten, as many speedsters before him have done.
The book takes some time to run through Wally's life, from his first meeting with Barry Allen back in the Silver Age, to how he became Kid Flash, to the change to the red and yellow costume. The artist recreates scenes from Crisis where he takes up the role of the Flash after Barry's death, and ultimately we see the panel from the end of Flash Rebirth with all the various Flash related characters. Wally says for a moment his life was perfect, and then it was all taken away.
From here, the plot is Wally West making contact with or observing various DC characters, trying to find that anchor that will draw him out of the Speed Force and back to reality. It used to be his wife Linda Park, but he has been unable to find her. He contacts Batman, and tells him to remember the letter from Thomas Wayne that Barry Allen brought back from the alternate reality of the Flashpoint, before being pulled back into the Speed Force. He sees that New 52 Superman has died. He seems Ted Kord and Jaime Reyes. The original Doctor Fate appears. He finds Johnny Thunder in an old folks home, and it's implied that Johnny is responsible for the JSA vanishing from history. He watches Aquaman propose to Mera. It's a whole tableau of characters or situations that have been written out of continuity, but Wally remembers them as they were. He does ultimately find Linda Park at last, but she does not remember him, which really hits him hard as one might expect, and he almost gives up.
But he decides to give it one last try before he dies and is absorbed, and so he goes to find Barry Allen. Barry doesn't remember him either, and Wally accepts his fate graciously, telling Barry thank you for his life and all the memories. At the last moment, Barry remembers Wally, wondering how he could ever forget, and is able to save him from being being lost in the Speed Force. Wally tells him about Flashpoint, and that a decade has been stolen from all of them, and relationships have been severed, and that Barry was not responsible. He may have caused the Flashpoint, but when he was restoring the timeline, someone else intervened and changed it all. Back in the Batcave, Batman finds the smiley face with the bullet wound in the wall of the Batcave. The epilogue shows a watch being assembled by unseen hands on Mars, and someone quoting Watchmen.
Looks like I'd better read it so I know what's going on here. Oh, and Pandora is killed mid-story by an unseen individual.
Overall: As I said before, if DC hadn't thrown all of this away, they wouldn't have to come up with a convoluted way to restore it now. It's a little ironic that all it takes to get people talking about DC again is to take a bunch of characters and stories away, then give them back five years later. Of course, that's not all there is to it. Johns is clearly integrating Watchmen into the main DC Universe, and even in the absence of all the spoilers this past weekend, that comes across very clearly. Getting the genuine Wally West back is something I've wanted to see for a long time now, and Johns even explains away the young black New 52 Wally by making him a distant cousin that Wally knew about but never met. He's a relative of Iris's brother apparently. And that's fine. There's also some hints that New 52 Superman was never really Superman at all, so there are a number of retcons being put into place in this issue. It's probably fairly convoluted to the new reader, but then DC spent five years trying to attract new readers, only for sales to crash and burn after the initial publicity of the New 52 wore off. DC You was an abject failure in about every way. So having failed at bringing in new readers, DC has wisely decided to go all out in catering to the old ones.
It's a good, solid attempt at a major band-aid by Geoff Johns, who has always had a good head for continuity and how to use it. I will definitely try out and read more books than I have been for the past few years, and if the characters feel right and the stories are good, DC will get more of my money. If they're not, my buying habits will dwindle away just as they did after the New 52.
Dom, it looks like that "Flash by Mark Waid" volume counts after all. It's going to be some consolation if after five years of neglect and attempted race-bending of the character by DC, the original Wally West ends up being the character used to save the DC Universe from a fate worse than death.
Re: Comics are Awesome III
I read it. Nice how it blows away "Convergence" (which established that the original "Crisis on Infinite Earths" never happened) and.... Yeah, Johns really thought this through.
Not terribly impressed with "Rebirth" so far. This has been an 80-page zero issue. But, I am in for "Batman" and "Earth 2".
I found the Dean and the nursing home staff to be particularly irksome. (Seriously, the "bad guy in authority who is supposed to be a jerk even if they objectively have a legitimate grievance" was a cliche when Johns was a kid.)
Not terribly impressed with "Rebirth" so far. This has been an 80-page zero issue. But, I am in for "Batman" and "Earth 2".
I found the Dean and the nursing home staff to be particularly irksome. (Seriously, the "bad guy in authority who is supposed to be a jerk even if they objectively have a legitimate grievance" was a cliche when Johns was a kid.)
The quote is the last conversation with Adrian Veidt and Doctor Manhattan from "Watchmen". I think that scene is a flash-back to the end of "Watchmen". (At the end, Manhattan considers going off to "create some" life. Presumably, the current DC universe is the result.)The epilogue shows a watch being assembled by unseen hands on Mars, and someone quoting Watchmen.
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Sparky Prime
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Re: Comics are Awesome III
Sinestro #22-23
The Red Lanterns seek to find the Sinestro Corps for revenge after Lobo attacked them. But the Sinestro Corps has changed dramatically under Natu's leadership. They have become much more like the Green Lanterns in their approach to paroling the universe and protecting people, not as brutal as they were under Sinestro's lead. As it turns out, the Red Lanterns have stolen a terraforming device to use against the Yellow Lanterns homeworld, but the Yellow Lanterns are already aware of this plan and steal the device from them and Ranx captures the Red Lanterns. On New Korugar, the terraforming device is used to change the former desolate prison planet into a new lush world full of life (sorta like the Genesis device in Star Trek). Afterwords, Lyssa Drak informs Sinestro her vision of the future hasn't changed. Armageddon is still approaching. Sinestro decides they must get on with it... he must become host to Parallax once more.
This has been a great series. Honestly, this book has felt like what the Green Lantern titles have been missing for the past year or two. Disappointed to see it coming to and end, but I'm glad that it sounds like they will be continuing this storyline with the Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps series.
Omega Men #12
To quickly recap this series since I haven't really talked about it... Kyle goes to the Vega system to act as a neutral third party for peace talks (giving up his ring as Lanterns are not allowed in the sector). Only as it turns out the ruling government known as the Citadel is responsible for killing an entire planet in order to mine Stellarium, which can only be found in the Vega system. So the Omega Men kidnap Kyle in order to show him the injustice that has been done. Kyle joins the Omega Men and when they finally confront the Viceroy, Kyle begs them not to kill him, to show everyone they are better than he is. But Kalista kills him anyway and becomes the Queen of the Vega system. She is a harsh ruler, but refuses to kill any more planets for Stellarium. Kyle rips off the Omega Man symbol from his uniform, drops his Cross on it as well, and leaves believing he did the right thing to save billions of lives. Back on Earth, a General tells Kyle that every developed planet needs Stellarium to survive, and with Kalista refusing to let them mine any, there is a war coming and wants to know which side Kyle is on, to which Kyle proudly shows the scar on his neck from his time with the Omega Men...
Honestly, I'm really sure what to make of the ending. Kyle appears to be back on Earth, but why would a human General know anything about Stellarium, or be "head of the galaxies committee" pushing Kyle about helping them with Kalista? I was hoping for more of a clue for Kyle's future, given we haven't heard anything about the character yet for Rebirth...
Thoughts on Rebirth later... Work has decided to call me in at the last minute.
The Red Lanterns seek to find the Sinestro Corps for revenge after Lobo attacked them. But the Sinestro Corps has changed dramatically under Natu's leadership. They have become much more like the Green Lanterns in their approach to paroling the universe and protecting people, not as brutal as they were under Sinestro's lead. As it turns out, the Red Lanterns have stolen a terraforming device to use against the Yellow Lanterns homeworld, but the Yellow Lanterns are already aware of this plan and steal the device from them and Ranx captures the Red Lanterns. On New Korugar, the terraforming device is used to change the former desolate prison planet into a new lush world full of life (sorta like the Genesis device in Star Trek). Afterwords, Lyssa Drak informs Sinestro her vision of the future hasn't changed. Armageddon is still approaching. Sinestro decides they must get on with it... he must become host to Parallax once more.
This has been a great series. Honestly, this book has felt like what the Green Lantern titles have been missing for the past year or two. Disappointed to see it coming to and end, but I'm glad that it sounds like they will be continuing this storyline with the Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps series.
Omega Men #12
To quickly recap this series since I haven't really talked about it... Kyle goes to the Vega system to act as a neutral third party for peace talks (giving up his ring as Lanterns are not allowed in the sector). Only as it turns out the ruling government known as the Citadel is responsible for killing an entire planet in order to mine Stellarium, which can only be found in the Vega system. So the Omega Men kidnap Kyle in order to show him the injustice that has been done. Kyle joins the Omega Men and when they finally confront the Viceroy, Kyle begs them not to kill him, to show everyone they are better than he is. But Kalista kills him anyway and becomes the Queen of the Vega system. She is a harsh ruler, but refuses to kill any more planets for Stellarium. Kyle rips off the Omega Man symbol from his uniform, drops his Cross on it as well, and leaves believing he did the right thing to save billions of lives. Back on Earth, a General tells Kyle that every developed planet needs Stellarium to survive, and with Kalista refusing to let them mine any, there is a war coming and wants to know which side Kyle is on, to which Kyle proudly shows the scar on his neck from his time with the Omega Men...
Honestly, I'm really sure what to make of the ending. Kyle appears to be back on Earth, but why would a human General know anything about Stellarium, or be "head of the galaxies committee" pushing Kyle about helping them with Kalista? I was hoping for more of a clue for Kyle's future, given we haven't heard anything about the character yet for Rebirth...
Thoughts on Rebirth later... Work has decided to call me in at the last minute.