crazy customizing and creativity questions and discussion

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Shockwave
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Re: crazy customizing questions and discussion

Post by Shockwave »

Dominic wrote:
That's a bit like saying "well, McDonald's isn't making cheeseburgers anymore so I'll eat curry instead
The analogy falls aparty here. (I was really hungy yesterday, hence my obsession with curry and such.) In this case, it would be like "I am making *McDonalds* burgers better than McDonalds".
No it doesn't, in fact, that makes this a better example. I'm basically saying that I like McDonalds burgers and will continue to eat at McDonalds. What really vexes me about what you're saying is that you're basically saying "I've already had McDonalds burgers. They were good, but if they're not making any new or different burgers I have no reason to go there." Which is just nuts. Sometimes I have a craving for McDonalds burgers. Getting one from Carl's Jr, isn't gonna work. Neither is going to Weinershnitzel. If McDonalds quits making burgers and I have that craving, I've got to make my own.

I just find it odd that you wouldn't want to go back and enjoy something that you enjoyed before. You're basically saying that everything ever produced is a one shot. Enjoy it once and move on. That's almost a locust mentality and fandom doesn't work that way. You don't just consume everything you want and move on, you continue to enjoy what you enjoy. I like the Tron movies. Now, there hasn't been anything new for a couple of years, since the last movie, but that doesn't stop me from watching the two movies that are out. Because I still like them and want to go on enjoying them. Same goes for Transformers and Star Trek and Star Wars and... you get the point.

I'll admit that it's a little hard for me to defend fanfic because I don't really ever see the need to write any. My approach if I want to enjoy something is to go back and enjoy what I enjoyed before rather than write my own stuff. But, I can objectively understand why some fans would want to create new stories in old/previous settings. It's not that they are doing that to "keep them in the hobby" as it were, it's that they are still in a hobby that has officially died or not producing stuff that they like anymore and they wish to enjoy those parts of it that they did.
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Re: crazy customizing questions and discussion

Post by BWprowl »

The thing with repurposing is, sometimes it does work, especially in the homage-heavy context of the AEC toys that brought this up. For instance, for the longest time, before Generations Wheeljack came out, I intended to get an Energon Downshift to serve as Wheeljack in my Classics Autobot lineup. I mean, look at the guy:

Image

He's totally Wheeljack. Yeah, you could have him serve as Downshift/Cliffjumper/Whoever from Energon, but he'll also clearly work as G1 Wheeljack. Admittedly, the point is moot now since there's a proper Generations Wheeljack who's a better toy anyway, but at the time, this would've been a good call. Ditto for the many people who use Energon Shockblast as Shockwave in their G1 lineups: because it friggin' works.

Theoretically, people wanting a Shockwave for their lineup could wait for the upcoming FoC toy, but even that would be repurposing since FoC is part of the 'Aligned' continuity, and not G1, so that's not technically G1 Shockwave (also, despite looking like a damn cool toy, he doesn't have the height I feel Shockwave needs to work properly, but that's a personal opinion. He also hella looks like a T'au Battlesuit, doesn't he?). Not that that's stopped me before, I weave WfC toys into my G1 displays all the time: WfC Bumblebee has been leading my Classics/Generations Autobots for some time now, and that was even before IDW repurposed that design themselves as the current G1 'Bee.
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Re: crazy customizing questions and discussion

Post by Dominic »

The blue is that same weird purply dark blue colour. There's precedent.
I never saw the purple. I always saw Prime's legs as blue. I need to take a look at Lewis' copy of RoadRage.

I'm basically saying that I like McDonalds burgers
This food analogy is just falling apart. Lets table it and move on to dessert.

just find it odd that you wouldn't want to go back and enjoy something that you enjoyed before. You're basically saying that everything ever produced is a one shot. Enjoy it once and move on. That's almost a locust mentality and fandom doesn't work that way. You don't just consume everything you want and move on, you continue to enjoy what you enjoy.
There is enough to read that re-reading just strikes me as wasteful. But, if a hobby or even a franchise has not produced anything worthwhile, or at all, for a number of years, there is no reason to identify as a fan of it. (Again, look at my example using "GI Joe" above. I am currently reading one Joe comic, more as an outgrowth of my liking good comics than for liking "GI Joe" as a property.)

"Star Wars" is another example. I liked the 6 movies. I liked some of the comics. But, it has been over 5 years since that franchise has produced anything worth my time. I am done with it. I am not buying any more toys. I am not buying the comics. I am not thinking of it at all, aside from using it as an example in conversations like this one). Ditto for Trek. I have not really bothered since the end of "Deep Space 9". "Star Trek" alone is not enough to get me to care. "Star Trek as written by" or "Star Trek episode/movie about" might get me. But, "Star Trek" is not enough.

I am not going to focus on old stuff, or write fanfic, to artificially preserve my state of being a fan.

He's totally Wheeljack. Yeah, you could have him serve as Downshift/Cliffjumper/Whoever from Energon, but he'll also clearly work as G1 Wheeljack. Admittedly, the point is moot now since there's a proper Generations Wheeljack who's a better toy anyway, but at the time, this would've been a good call. Ditto for the many people who use Energon Shockblast as Shockwave in their G1 lineups: because it friggin' works.

Packaging says "Downshift". Comics say "Downshift". Cartoon, barring any of the common sloppy errors, says "Downshift". I am going with that.

I am suprised that you are making this case, given how annoyed you get when we do not get new characters. Why go out of your way to justify a half-assed attempt to get a Wheeljack toy?

I actively dislike the comics that Downshift shows up in. But, I am not going to say that my Downshift is not Downshift.


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Re: crazy customizing questions and discussion

Post by Shockwave »

Dominic wrote:There is enough to read that re-reading just strikes me as wasteful. But, if a hobby or even a franchise has not produced anything worthwhile, or at all, for a number of years, there is no reason to identify as a fan of it. (Again, look at my example using "GI Joe" above. I am currently reading one Joe comic, more as an outgrowth of my liking good comics than for liking "GI Joe" as a property.)

"Star Wars" is another example. I liked the 6 movies. I liked some of the comics. But, it has been over 5 years since that franchise has produced anything worth my time. I am done with it. I am not buying any more toys. I am not buying the comics. I am not thinking of it at all, aside from using it as an example in conversations like this one). Ditto for Trek. I have not really bothered since the end of "Deep Space 9". "Star Trek" alone is not enough to get me to care. "Star Trek as written by" or "Star Trek episode/movie about" might get me. But, "Star Trek" is not enough.

I am not going to focus on old stuff, or write fanfic, to artificially preserve my state of being a fan.
Buying stuff you're not going to reread is wasteful to me. Why even buy the comic book if you're not gonna go back and reread them. Just rent them (yes, there are places that you can rent comic books. Or better yet, check them out from the library for free), read them and be done with them. Saves money and space. And I know I've asked this before, but this time I'd really like an answer: are you really telling me that you're never in the mood to watch "Return of the Jedi"? Cause if not, that's really... I really just don't get that. I mean, you're basically telling me that you never wanna go back and enjoy stuff that you liked before.

It's not artificially preserving the state of being a fan. Well, ok, it would be in your case cause you're only forward thinking and never want to enjoy stuff twice. Normal people aren't like that though. And by that, I just mean that you're perspective on this is not typical of fandom. You're not a fan. Of anything. Fandom is defined by liking something and enjoying something to the point where you want to go back and enjoy it over and over again. Meaning that you've enjoyed something so much that you crave and disire the experience of that again. Whether it be food, comics, movies, tv, music, what have you. Being a fan means more than just partaking of a hobby's current offerings. It means expressing your appreciation for it through various outlets. Some fans have artistic talent and choose to express their fandom through fan art. Others through cosplay by dressing as their favorite characters. Others write fanfic. Others paint their cars to look like Autobots but you get the point: Fan means an expression of liking something beyond just reading/watching or whatever is currently available. To not do that means that you're not a fan. You're a consumer. Now, I don't mean this as one of those "You're not a true fan" Synjoesque type flame things, I'm just illustrating my terminology and how I percieve and partake of fandom. Or more accurately, I'm trying to explain this in a way that will hopefully make more sense to you.

TL:DR: It's not artificially preserving the state of being a fan because that state was there to begin with and going back to enjoy something again is an expression of that pre-existing fandom.

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Re: crazy customizing questions and discussion

Post by Shockwave »

BWprowl wrote:The thing with repurposing is, sometimes it does work, especially in the homage-heavy context of the AEC toys that brought this up. For instance, for the longest time, before Generations Wheeljack came out, I intended to get an Energon Downshift to serve as Wheeljack in my Classics Autobot lineup. I mean, look at the guy:

Image

He's totally Wheeljack. Yeah, you could have him serve as Downshift/Cliffjumper/Whoever from Energon, but he'll also clearly work as G1 Wheeljack. Admittedly, the point is moot now since there's a proper Generations Wheeljack who's a better toy anyway, but at the time, this would've been a good call. Ditto for the many people who use Energon Shockblast as Shockwave in their G1 lineups: because it friggin' works.

Theoretically, people wanting a Shockwave for their lineup could wait for the upcoming FoC toy, but even that would be repurposing since FoC is part of the 'Aligned' continuity, and not G1, so that's not technically G1 Shockwave (also, despite looking like a damn cool toy, he doesn't have the height I feel Shockwave needs to work properly, but that's a personal opinion. He also hella looks like a T'au Battlesuit, doesn't he?). Not that that's stopped me before, I weave WfC toys into my G1 displays all the time: WfC Bumblebee has been leading my Classics/Generations Autobots for some time now, and that was even before IDW repurposed that design themselves as the current G1 'Bee.
I could maybe see doing this if you either have two copies of the same toy (like you've got two Energon Downshifts, one for your Energon shelf and one for your "classics" shelf) or if you don't have any of the line it comes from (like you've got a ton of Classics, but the only Energon figure you have is Downshift and you got him specifically to fill in for Wheeljack). There certainly is legitimate cause for fans to do this if they have absolutely no customizing skills whatsoever and just want a stand in until a better more official one is made. In other words, repurposing is a good way for fans to fill in missing gaps in their armies.

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Re: crazy customizing questions and discussion

Post by Gustavo »

BWprowl wrote:He's totally Wheeljack. Yeah, you could have him serve as Downshift/Cliffjumper/Whoever from Energon, but he'll also clearly work as G1 Wheeljack.
And he was clearly designed with that intent. That's the purpose of every line churning out variations of the original characters. They serve multiple purposes, for different audiences. The adult fans are supposed to identify their G1 favorites in the toyline and buy them because of this.

Transformers tends not to have characters so much as it has character archetypes. Many versions of Optimus, all slightly different, but basically the same.
Admittedly, the point is moot now since there's a proper Generations Wheeljack who's a better toy anyway, but at the time, this would've been a good call.
It's still a good call, because that's obviously Wheeljack. He also happens to be Energon Downshift.
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Re: crazy customizing questions and discussion

Post by Gustavo »

Dominic wrote:
Transformers has a multiverse -- a multiverse defined so loosely in Transformers: The Ultimate Guide (an official product), that it effectively includes every continuity everywhere, including non-Transformers continuities. With an infinite number of possibility universes to focus on, why bother with Shattered Glass? It's not even worth hating.
In context, "Shattered Glass" is so closely connected to the old Marvel stuff that the stink kind of rubs off on to the old Marvel stuff. (This is similar to how I cannot look at any of DC's Shazam/Marvel Family characters without thinking about "Countdown".)
Well, that seems more like a personal problem, than anything wrong with the characters.

The Jeff Smith "Shazam!" book remains quite lovely, despite "Countdown", just as Chekhov's "The Seagull" remains unsullied by a particularly bad performance at NYC's Shakespeare In The Park in 2001 featuring Meryl Streep, Kevin Kline, Natalie Portman, Philip Seymour Hoffman, Christopher Walken and John Goodman.
And, given that most of the use/maintenance of the TF multiverse is by Fun Publications, just the idea of a multiverse in TF has bad associations.
G1 had wildly different continuities for Comics, Cartoon, Tech Specs, Choose Your Own Adventure Books, etc. The G1 comics explicitly pulled characters around between continuities. It's always been a multiverse. (And, the Choose Your Own Adventure books were a multiverse in a single book).

If Hasbro still ran a Q and A, I would ask how many "back of the box" continuities they assume.
Probably one per box.
Armada Airazor begs to differ.
Ah, yes. That was a typo. Nobody even seems to know how it got there. Granted, when you consider what goes in to moulding a toy, it is a pretty big typo. But, it is a typo all the same. I would not count that particular sigil any more than I would count some of Marvel's more odd colouring choices. (For example in one issue of the comics, they coloured Dead-End as being yellow.)
So, sometimes intent matters and sometimes it doesn't? Hasbro never intended for Airazor to have a Decepticon symbol, and they never intended for either Energon or Shattered Glass to be a big steaming pile of sh.t. You're perfectly happy to mentally edit out one, but not the others? Ridiculous.

Shattered Glass, like Kiss Players, Energon and Airazor's symbol, are all low points within the franchise's history that are best not dwelled upon (dwelt upon?) and are seldom discussed in polite company.

Overall, you're very silly. You object to repurposing a toy because it isn't creative enough, and you object to fanfic because it is too creative. You can overlook a physically molded Decepticon symbol, but you cannot overlook terrible terrible Shattered Glass that you have to actively hunt down.
-remembers shamefully following up that Thundercracker story with a wholly self-indulgent romp....
And what's wrong with that? What's wrong with actually playing with your toys?
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Re: crazy customizing questions and discussion

Post by Shockwave »

Gustavo wrote:
Dominic wrote:
Transformers has a multiverse -- a multiverse defined so loosely in Transformers: The Ultimate Guide (an official product), that it effectively includes every continuity everywhere, including non-Transformers continuities. With an infinite number of possibility universes to focus on, why bother with Shattered Glass? It's not even worth hating.
In context, "Shattered Glass" is so closely connected to the old Marvel stuff that the stink kind of rubs off on to the old Marvel stuff. (This is similar to how I cannot look at any of DC's Shazam/Marvel Family characters without thinking about "Countdown".)
Well, that seems more like a personal problem, than anything wrong with the characters.

The Jeff Smith "Shazam!" book remains quite lovely, despite "Countdown", just as Chekhov's "The Seagull" remains unsullied by a particularly bad performance at NYC's Shakespeare In The Park in 2001 featuring Meryl Streep, Kevin Kline, Natalie Portman, Philip Seymour Hoffman, Christopher Walken and John Goodman.
And, given that most of the use/maintenance of the TF multiverse is by Fun Publications, just the idea of a multiverse in TF has bad associations.
G1 had wildly different continuities for Comics, Cartoon, Tech Specs, Choose Your Own Adventure Books, etc. The G1 comics explicitly pulled characters around between continuities. It's always been a multiverse. (And, the Choose Your Own Adventure books were a multiverse in a single book).

If Hasbro still ran a Q and A, I would ask how many "back of the box" continuities they assume.
Probably one per box.
Armada Airazor begs to differ.
Ah, yes. That was a typo. Nobody even seems to know how it got there. Granted, when you consider what goes in to moulding a toy, it is a pretty big typo. But, it is a typo all the same. I would not count that particular sigil any more than I would count some of Marvel's more odd colouring choices. (For example in one issue of the comics, they coloured Dead-End as being yellow.)
So, sometimes intent matters and sometimes it doesn't? Hasbro never intended for Airazor to have a Decepticon symbol, and they never intended for either Energon or Shattered Glass to be a big steaming pile of sh.t. You're perfectly happy to mentally edit out one, but not the others? Ridiculous.

Shattered Glass, like Kiss Players, Energon and Airazor's symbol, are all low points within the franchise's history that are best not dwelled upon (dwelt upon?) and are seldom discussed in polite company.

Overall, you're very silly. You object to repurposing a toy because it isn't creative enough, and you object to fanfic because it is too creative. You can overlook a physically molded Decepticon symbol, but you cannot overlook terrible terrible Shattered Glass that you have to actively hunt down.
-remembers shamefully following up that Thundercracker story with a wholly self-indulgent romp....
And what's wrong with that? What's wrong with actually playing with your toys?
Gustavo, I'm gonna help you out here because historically, Dom isn't usually very good at explaining himself. Don't get me wrong, he is silly, buuuuuuuut, I think I can probably explain this in a way that makes sense.

Dom's objection to fanfic isn't because it's too creative. It's because it usually involves the worst parts of various fandoms (and believe me when I say that the fandom has a BIG influence on him!). Objectively, I can see his point. Fanfic usually starts with a good idea but then the execution winds up being the worst parts of said fan's crazy little nuances. Like making undefined characters male/female just for the sake of it (or worse as some sort of joke). Or, making one's favorite character retarded level powerful over everything else or so on and so forth. It degenerates into self indulgism which is one of Dom's biggest sticking points.

Also, Dom is a consumer more than a fan. Consumers partake of what is offered and then cast it aside and move on, never to revisit it again. Fans on the other hand partake of something, enjoy it and go back to keep enjoying the same thing repeatedly. Like, I would go see Return of the Jedi and come out going "Wow, that was awesome! I plan to see that again and again and again!" Dom would come out of it and say "Wow, that was awesome! Now let's go watch Blade Runner! And after that, several episodes of Dr. Who!". Now, apparently this approach works for Dom and has for several years and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I personally couldn't do that because occasionally I get the itch to watch ROTJ and throwing in Blade Runner, while also an awesome movie, just isn't gonna scratch that itch.

And I think the other reason Dom doesn't "Get" fanfic is because when Dom is finished enjoying something, he moves onto something else and doesn't feel the need to creatively express his enjoyment of... whatever it is. Fans do however, through either artistic, literature, music, interpretive dance, cosplay or what have you.

Now, Dom, I seriously hope you don't take offense to any of this (and I hope I have explained this correctly, but if not, by all means feel free to correct). You know I have the upmost respect for you and you're still an awesome dude.

Seriously, Gustavo, Dom may have his quirks, but he's actually a pretty decent guy. We recently had an arrangement that he was going to send me the Free Comic Book Day issue 80.5 of Regeneration One, for free (which is pretty awesome unto itself) but do you think he stopped there? Oh no. This package was packed full of stuff. Including a very good run on GI Joe Cobra and I think an exclusive Joecon comic? Anyway, yeah, Dom's silly, but that's what makes him unique.
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Re: crazy customizing questions and discussion

Post by Dominic »

Buying stuff you're not going to reread is wasteful to me. Why even buy the comic book if you're not gonna go back and reread them. Just rent them (yes, there are places that you can rent comic books. Or better yet, check them out from the library for free), read them and be done with them. Saves money and space.
I can see what you are saying here. Part of my thinking is rooted in the days when having a comprehensive archive was not only more possible, but was the only way to double check something. ("Who did what in issue___ of _____________?") And, part of it is "if it is good enough for me to read, it is probably good enough to own". And, on some level, I plan to reread it at some point. (I am generally more willing to sit through movies more than once, as watching something is usually quicker than reading it.)

are you really telling me that you're never in the mood to watch "Return of the Jedi"? Cause if not, that's really...
Well, "Return of the Jedi" kind of sucks.

At some point or another, I might sit down and watch Episode III again. I have watched it several times. But, at this point, I am done with "Star Wars". So, if I do watch Episode III, it will be "watching a good movie" not "watching a Star Wars movie".

-Dom is actually a fan of Transformers on account that he consistently interacts with the fandom despite not partaking in offerings past or present (or minimally present).
Uh, I am planning to fill out that "UK comics discussion" thread at some point. And, I am reading the two modern TF comics. I gave the Simple Simon Furman book a try, but Simple Simon cannot write.

In other words, repurposing is a good way for fans to fill in missing gaps in their armies.
It is lazy.

It's still a good call, because that's obviously Wheeljack. He also happens to be Energon Downshift.
"Energon" Downshift looks like Wheeljack. But, "Energon" Downshift is Downshift, not Wheeljack.


G1 had wildly different continuities for Comics, Cartoon, Tech Specs, Choose Your Own Adventure Books, etc. The G1 comics explicitly pulled characters around between continuities. It's always been a multiverse. (And, the Choose Your Own Adventure books were a multiverse in a single book).
There is also more than one iteration of "GI Joe". There are the old comics, the old cartoons, the DDP run, the IDW retro series, the modern IDW comics, a few self-contained series over the the years.... But, Joe fans generally do not feel a need to fit everything together in to a multiverse. Transformers fans on the other hand not only have to make everything fit together in a multiverse, many of them have to make those parts of the multiverse interact.
Probably one per box.
It could also be "one per series", or perhaps several shared between multiple series, or.....

Hasbro never intended for Airazor to have a Decepticon symbol, and they never intended for either Energon or Shattered Glass to be a big steaming pile of sh.t. You're perfectly happy to mentally edit out one, but not the others? Ridiculous.
I am not pretending that the Airrazor's Decepticon sigil is not there. But, I am noting that Hasbro's comments regarding it indicate that the sigil was an error. And, I am not going to demand some kind of post-hoc and fanfic grade reason for why it is there.

You can overlook a physically molded Decepticon symbol, but you cannot overlook terrible terrible Shattered Glass that you have to actively hunt down.
Remember, most of Fun Publication's comics are sold through local comic shops. And, I know more than one person who is a member of the club, so I do not have to go very far out of my way to read the other stuff.

And what's wrong with that? What's wrong with actually playing with your toys?
Who was playing with the toys? I actually wrote those stories out.

Don't get me wrong, he is silly, buuuuuuuut,
I sent you a picture of my silly butt. Which, if I am guessing right, you should be getting right about the time I type this.

Dom's objection to fanfic isn't because it's too creative. It's because it usually involves the worst parts of various fandoms (and believe me when I say that the fandom has a BIG influence on him!).
And, it just makes the fandom my insular. I might be the only one here who remembers the days of UseNet, when fanfic cults would spring up around certain fans and fanfics.

making undefined characters male/female just for the sake of it (or worse as some sort of joke).
That really depends on the quality of the joke actually.

Also, Dom is a consumer more than a fan. Consumers partake of what is offered and then cast it aside and move on, never to revisit it again. Fans on the other hand partake of something, enjoy it and go back to keep enjoying the same thing repeatedly.
I disagree here.

I would consider myself to be a fan because I have a sustained interest in the franchise as a whole. I have been reading and posting in TF forums for a bit more than a decade now. I have read a good chunk of the comics and have two TF books on my pull-list. TF delivers on what I want in comics and (albeit to a much less degree of late) in toys.

And I think the other reason Dom doesn't "Get" fanfic is because when Dom is finished enjoying something, he moves onto something else and doesn't feel the need to creatively express his enjoyment of... whatever it is. Fans do however, through either artistic, literature, music, interpretive dance, cosplay or what have you.
You are saying this about the guy who posts at length discussing the comics?

Joking aside, I want to enjoy the property as it is, which means focusing on the legitimate content associated with it.

We recently had an arrangement that he was going to send me the Free Comic Book Day issue 80.5 of Regeneration One, for free (which is pretty awesome unto itself) but do you think he stopped there?
I am glad that receiving my package makes you happy.


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-really did send a gratuitous butt show while typing this up.
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Re: crazy customizing questions and discussion

Post by Shockwave »

Dominic wrote:I disagree here.

I would consider myself to be a fan because I have a sustained interest in the franchise as a whole. I have been reading and posting in TF forums for a bit more than a decade now. I have read a good chunk of the comics and have two TF books on my pull-list. TF delivers on what I want in comics and (albeit to a much less degree of late) in toys.

And I think the other reason Dom doesn't "Get" fanfic is because when Dom is finished enjoying something, he moves onto something else and doesn't feel the need to creatively express his enjoyment of... whatever it is. Fans do however, through either artistic, literature, music, interpretive dance, cosplay or what have you.
You are saying this about the guy who posts at length discussing the comics?

Joking aside, I want to enjoy the property as it is, which means focusing on the legitimate content associated with it.
Well I was speaking more generally in how you operate while making an exception for the Transformers franchise which I definitely would say that you are a fan of and not just a consumer. But, I am also making the distinction that being a fan of something involves some sort of creative expression of the enjoyment of said franchise. Either through artistic, literary, musical expression or cosplay or what have you. I get wanting to enjoy the hobby's current official offerings as they are, which most fans do as well, and there's nothing wrong with that, but only doing that is consumerism, not fandom. I guess I'm defining "fan" as someone who feels the need to creatively express there appreciation for a given property. Writing reviews could be seen as an artistic expression, but I think you get where I'm going with this.

Yeah I could watch Star Wars III if I want to just watch "a good movie" but I tend to want to watch "a Star Wars movie" and watching any other "good movie" isn't gonna cut it.
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