Star Trek

[Sparky Prime]

How they got time travel = new reality out of that episode I don't know.

That actually kind of makes sense since when the Enterprise C came through the rift, the reality changed. And when it went back through the rift, everything changed back.

But that's an alternate timeline event, where history is changed and thus events of that universe unfolds differently as a result. An alternate reality is more of a parallel universe, like in another TNG episode, "Parallels", where Worf starts shifting between 'quantum realities'.

[Shockwave]

How they got time travel = new reality out of that episode I don't know.

That actually kind of makes sense since when the Enterprise C came through the rift, the reality changed. And when it went back through the rift, everything changed back.

But that's an alternate timeline event, where history is changed and thus events of that universe unfolds differently as a result. An alternate reality is more of a parallel universe, like in another TNG episode, "Parallels", where Worf starts shifting between 'quantum realities'.

Either way the result was the same: An alternate timeline/universe/continuity/whatever.

[Sparky Prime]

Either way the result was the same: An alternate timeline/universe/continuity/whatever.

It's not the same result. An alternate timeline is a different concept from an alternate universe/continuity and as such has different implications. The alternate timeline would essentially overwrite everything that came after the change, like we see in "Yesterday's Enterprise", while an alternate universe exists separately as is the case in "Parallels" or any of the Mirror universe episodes.

[Shockwave]

Either way the result was the same: An alternate timeline/universe/continuity/whatever.

It's not the same result. An alternate timeline is a different concept from an alternate universe/continuity with different implications. The alternate timeline would essentially overwrite everything that came after the change, while an alternate universe exists separately and would not effect the primary universe.

Ok, I think I see what's happening here. You're thinking that the Abramstrek events are somehow overwriting (for lack of a better word) the original Trek timeline? because that's not what's happened at all. They actually say somewhere in the 2009 Trek that it's an alternate timeline/universe. The original events happened. So did the new events. It would be the same as if Old Spock were living in the Mirror, Mirror universe.

[Sparky Prime]

Ok, I think I see what's happening here. You're thinking that the Abramstrek events are somehow overwriting (for lack of a better word) the original Trek timeline? because that's not what's happened at all. They actually say somewhere in the 2009 Trek that it's an alternate timeline/universe. The original events happened. So did the new events. It would be the same as if Old Spock were living in the Mirror, Mirror universe.

I know that's what the writers have said... behind the scenes. However, how they showed it on screen, and having said they got their inspiration from "Yesterday's Enterprise" shows their lack of understanding in how time travel works in Star Trek. The '09 film tries to brush off a time travel event as somehow creating a new reality, and that makes no sense from how time travel has always been shown to work in Star Trek. Now if they'd said the black hole had sent the Narada and Spock to the past of a parallel reality rather than just into the past... that would be different.

[Sparky Prime]

- I love the design of the warp core. It looks like a massive engine to drive a massive starship. Well done, movie designers.

I found out today that was filmed on location at the National Ignition Facility in California. So the outside of the warp core in this movie is really the target chamber for a laser-based inertial confinement fusion reactor.

[andersonh1]

- I love the design of the warp core. It looks like a massive engine to drive a massive starship. Well done, movie designers.

I found out today that was filmed on location at the National Ignition Facility in California. So the outside of the warp core in this movie is really the target chamber for a laser-based inertial confinement fusion reactor.

The fact that it's a real life high-tech object makes it even better. Nice!!

[JediTricks]

Yeah the technology limits are a little absurd but it didn't bother me much. I kind of just write it off as "the physics in this Trek timeline work different". I know that's not great, but it doesn't ruin the rest of the plot for me.

To me, that sort of thing makes this the "stupidverse" then, the writers write stupidly and the non-stupid people have to roll their eyes and accept that it's stupid, which IMO takes one out of the moment (if they're not stupid).

Plus, I also got the impression that those uses of the transporter were not typical and were mostly regarded as impossible by the rest of Starfleet. The thing that bugged me was the Enterprise hiding in the ocean. And on top of that, the whole "We can't launch without being seen" Really? How'd you get there to begin with? I'm pretty sure the natives could look up and see a giant starship sinking into their ocean just as well as they could see it rising out of it. Also, if the Enterprise isn't designed to handle atmospheric flight, it's sure as hell not designed for the pressures of ocean navigation. Damn it man, it's a starship, not a submarine!

Oh yeah, like Prof Farnsworth's we're below 80 atmospheres of pressure, how many atmospheres of pressure can the ship handle line where he says "it's a spaceship, so anywhere between zero and one." And yeah, did these natives just miss the ship going in at night because they're all REALLY GOOD sleepers?

Am I wrong, or didn't Future Spock give Scotty some advanced calculations that enabled the further transport?

Sounds right, the kind of dumb shit cheat they pull. "I'll help you figure this out because you already figured out in my timeline" was the argument, it's a very BAD ripoff of the "transparent aluminum" "how do we know he didn't invent the thing" gag from ST4 only instead of something based on existing physics, it's COMPLETE AND TOTAL NUMBSKULLERY.

I have to wonder how familiar the writers of these films actually are with any of the past Star Treks given that sort of approach. I mean, you'd think people that were that familiar with it would work with the established material rather than making something up that makes absolutely no sense with any of said material.

They claim they are fans, just like they claimed they were fans of TF. My guess is they were casual fans as kids, they watched it on TV but it was just a thing to watch, it was just Gilligan's Island, it was on and they saw it, not that they were true fans.

Yes, the transwarp beaming equation future Spock gave them allowed them to beam someone onto a ship at warp, as well as across lightyears. I can see how this equation would make sense for beaming onto a ship at warp, as the reasoning behind it is that the spatial distortions caused by the ships warp field makes it virtually impossible, unless it's two ships matching speed. However, it makes no sense in terms of giving the transporters more range. A transporter signal degrades if transmitted beyond the limitations of the technology. Kinda like how a radio signal gets weaker the farther away from the transmitter you are. Just entering a fancy equation isn't going to solve that. Let alone things like establishing safe coordinates to re-materialize so you don't end up beaming into a wall or something (which the first film kinda shows with Scotty ending up in the water pipe). It's a limitation of the hardware involved with the transporter, not the math.

Did they do ship-to-ship beaming in Enterprise from one subspace bubble to another, or was that a merged single bubble and they used a ladder or something? Enterprise was a mess like that so I can't remember, but even at matched warp I would think the ships would have to be within the same bubble to transport across subspace that way.

Scotty beaming into the water pipe should have killed him, I just realized. He's not displacing air, water is much dense, his molecules should have fused with the water molecules and at least caused an embolism by displacing other stuff into his bloodstream.

That actually kind of makes sense since when the Enterprise C came through the rift, the reality changed. And when it went back through the rift, everything changed back.

Yup, the only difference here being that Spock Prime didn't recognize this as an alternate timeline that needed to be corrected... for no reason at all.

But that's an alternate timeline event, where history is changed and thus events of that universe unfolds differently as a result. An alternate reality is more of a parallel universe, like in another TNG episode, "Parallels", where Worf starts shifting between 'quantum realities'.

Parallels doesn't involve time travel, while Yesterday's Enterprise does, that's the singular difference. Otherwise, these are the same thing, you're simply observing them from different points of view, Parallels views it from the diverging point of Worf passing through the event, while Yesterday's Enterprise views it from years after the diverging point when the Ent-C disappeared and shifted through time.

Parallels explores the idea of THOUSANDS of divergent timelines from across the entirety of the universe, you have very similar timelines that diverged in small ways recently and very different timelines that diverged much earlier or in much larger ways. Yesterday's Enterprise explores only 2 timelines, the original ST timeline and a divergent one where the Ent-C didn't complete her mission because she disappeared into a time rift, so it's much closer to New Coke Trek's concept since that is also just 2 timelines. But otherwise they're the same thing, it's not like Mirror Mirror where everything was always different, where personal motivations are flip-flopped.

I know that's what the writers have said... behind the scenes. However, how they showed it on screen, and having said they got their inspiration from "Yesterday's Enterprise" shows their lack of understanding in how time travel works in Star Trek. The '09 film tries to brush off a time travel event as somehow creating a new reality, and that makes no sense from how time travel has always been shown to work in Star Trek. Now if they'd said the black hole had sent the Narada and Spock to the past of a parallel reality rather than just into the past... that would be different.

No, they're correct, both are time travel-created alternate universes, the only difference is that Yesterday's Enterprise created an alternate timeline when the Ent-C went forward in time, while New Coke Trek was created when the Nerada and the Jellyfish went backwards in time, but each created a divergent timeline which is an alternate reality and they're not different in concept, only that Yesterday's Enterprise alternate timeline was corrected while New Coke Trek wasn't.

[Sparky Prime]

Did they do ship-to-ship beaming in Enterprise from one subspace bubble to another, or was that a merged single bubble and they used a ladder or something? Enterprise was a mess like that so I can't remember, but even at matched warp I would think the ships would have to be within the same bubble to transport across subspace that way

They merged their warp fields and then shot their tow cables into each other's shuttlepod bays so Trip could climb from Columbia to Enterprise. I don't think their transporters were advanced enough to even attempt transport at warp or otherwise, they didn't trust the transporter enough to attempt it.

Scotty beaming into the water pipe should have killed him, I just realized. He's not displacing air, water is much dense, his molecules should have fused with the water molecules and at least caused an embolism by displacing other stuff into his bloodstream.

You're completely right about that.

Parallels doesn't involve time travel, while Yesterday's Enterprise does, that's the singular difference. Otherwise, these are the same thing, you're simply observing them from different points of view, Parallels views it from the diverging point of Worf passing through the event, while Yesterday's Enterprise views it from years after the diverging point when the Ent-C disappeared and shifted through time.

You're wrong on this. Episodes like "Yesterday's Enterprise" shows that time travel overwrites events of a single universe, while "Parallels" shows that alternate timelines can also exist within their own separate parallel universes, or "quantum realities" as the episode referred to them as. And some of the quantum realities shown in Parallels did have their divergences years earlier as well. By the end of the episode, Worf was on an Enterprise where Riker was captain after they'd failed to save Picard from the Borg, Worf was his first officer and he was married to Deanna Troi. Alexander had never been born and instead he had some kids who were several years old already with Deanna. Bajor had apparently overthrown the Cardassian occupation by themselves and had become aggressive towards the Federation. Cardassia may have even joined the Federation as we saw a Cardassian officer on the bridge. Wesley Crusher had already graduated from Starfleet Academy and was the tactical officer and I think Data had blue eyes in that reality.

so it's much closer to New Coke Trek's concept since that is also just 2 timelines. But otherwise they're the same thing, it's not like Mirror Mirror where everything was always different, where personal motivations are flip-flopped.

The amount of different timelines isn't at all relevant. Time travel alters the universe in which they live in with "Yesterday's Enterprise". While what Worf experiences in "Parallels" are alternate timelines that exist as parallel universes, separately from his own universe. Which is more similar to the Mirror universe as an example of a drastically different parallel universe. It's not the same thing at all, time travel caused alternate timelines and parallel universes are two very different concepts.

No, they're correct, both are time travel-created alternate universes, the only difference is that Yesterday's Enterprise created an alternate timeline when the Ent-C went forward in time, while New Coke Trek was created when the Nerada and the Jellyfish went backwards in time, but each created a divergent timeline which is an alternate reality and they're not different in concept, only that Yesterday's Enterprise alternate timeline was corrected while New Coke Trek wasn't.

No, you're misunderstanding. The writers have said, behind the scenes, that NuTrek is a different reality than the original Trek universe. According to them, the original universe continues to exist as it was despite the changes to the timeline, unlike what was shown in "Yesterday's Enterprise". So it's not just a time travel created alternate timeline, it's a time travel created alternate timeline and parallel universe. Again, these are two very different concepts.

[Shockwave]

The writers have said, behind the scenes, that NuTrek is a different reality than the original Trek universe.

They actually say it in the film. In continuity. I forget where (probably in the conversation with the two Spocks) but I'll watch it again tonight.