The Transformers (IDW, formerly "Robots in Disguise")

[Shockwave]

rooting for Shockwave in Maximum Dinobots.

I was!

What?

[andersonh1]

rooting for Shockwave in Maximum Dinobots.

I was!

What?

Argh!!!! I give up.

[BWprowl]

This has to be easier to understand that I’m making it for myself.

And I"m not sure why the fact that I dislike the fall of an Autobot character is such a hard thing to understand. I like the (supposedly) good side to act like they have some moral standards. Is that so difficult to understand? Apparently so. I don't get it.

I can kinda see that, but one of the HUGE themes of this book is that Transformers don’t have ‘sides’ anymore in the traditional sense. And besides, the ‘good guy’ side having those moral standards IS still a big component of the story, since without that expectation, you wouldn’t be surprised or interested when guys like Prowl start crossing that line. In this case it’s “Holy crap, Prowl’s gone off the deep end, I gotta see where this goes!” as opposed to “Oh look, Starscream’s being an evil jerk…again. *snore*”

Do I think it's dragging the book down? No, I just don't like the way Prowl is behaving. It's as simple as that. Am I not allowed to dislike a character and his actions? Isn't that the point sometimes? I doubt I'm supposed to be rooting for Sixshot in Escalation or rooting for Shockwave in Maximum Dinobots. I'm allowed to dislike the trajectory of a character's story arc. You're allowed to like what I dislike. To each his own. I understand that you find Prowl's actions interesting, and so do I. I just don't approve of them, while you do.

Okay, I never said I ‘approve’ of Prowl’s actions. Far from it, I agree that he’s being a self-justifying, uncompromising thug. He’s clearly being painted as a ‘bad guy’ in this story, and I don’t condone the path he’s taken at all. Where you got that I agree with his fascist, intimidating policies I’m not sure, but know that I definitely don’t.

So it’s like…do you think that Barber *wants* us to ‘root for’ Prowl? Because again, I’m pretty sure we aren’t. Every time Prowl (or Arcee, for that matter) callously (seemingly) offed a Decepticon under the guise of their policing, it was played up as the morally wrong, line-crossing act that it was. I never got the impression that we were supposed to be going “Yeah Prowl! You assassinate those Decepticon Refugees for your own political gain! You da man!” and if you did, maybe I’ve been reading the book wrong this whole time.

Or…you say that you do enjoy the story, and you do find it interesting, so surely you recognize that the story wouldn’t be remotely in the same enjoyable, interesting place it is without Prowl acting the way he has, right? This is the part I think I’m not fully understanding: Are you mad at the writer of the story, or are you actually mad at the character himself for acting a certain way?

Because, I’ve certainly disliked characters in all different ways before. There are characters that I’ve hated because they were bad characters, poorly drawn and contributing nothing effective to the story. There are also ones that I disliked because the story clearly wanted me to dislike them, and see them get their comeuppance or what-have-you by the end, so I was effectively rooting ‘against’ them. There are also those guys I ‘love to hate’, where they’re such epic bastards and spectacular ‘bad guys’ that I’m just waiting to be blown away by the next insane act of villainy they reveal next.

I don’t ‘like’ Prowl as a person, but I am enjoying his story arc as a character, because I recognize that it’s vital and well-integrated to the plot that Barber is writing, that it works with what he’s trying to say as an author, and that it makes perfect sense as a logical progression of Prowl’s character.

And I didn't say get rid of him, soon or otherwise, I said I want to see him face the consequences of his actions. That would be good drama, and it would be justice.

I said a while back that I couldn’t wait for the ‘fall’ of Prowl’s arc. I think it’s going to be a fantastic conclusion to something IDW’s been building on well for some time now, and should be a grand finale for the character.

The difference between us on wanting to see Prowl ‘fall’, it seems, is that I want it because I’ve enjoyed his arc so far and expect the end of it to be suitably well-done, while you want him to ‘fall’ because you don’t like him as a character anymore and don’t like where his arc has led him, even though you…also say you recognize that said arc is the driving force of this story and admit that you find it enjoyable and interesting? (ARGH, THIS IS THE PART THAT I AM HAVING TROUBLE WITH)

I agree, but somewhere there has to be a line of demarcation where one stops acting like an Autobot entirely. Since BWProwl asked about Whirl, I don't think Roberts' portrayal of him paints a good picture. Is he entertaining? Sometimes, sure. But he's a psychopath and a would-be murderer, and he doesn't really deserve Autobot status.

Well yeah, but that’s kind of the point of the character, isn’t it? Clearly none of the other Autobots approve of Whirl’s actions (didn’t Orion Pax get him discharged and try to send him to prison? Or something?), but his being allowed in the faction due to political or military considerations or whatever forces them deal with having this element among their ranks, and that creates good fodder for stories. How would you have guys like Roberts write storylines about the Autobots dealing with unstable, problematic, dangerous individuals amongst their faction if you didn’t want to see any Autobots who were unstable, problematic, dangerous individuals?

To sum up, and to try to explain one more time: Robots in Disguise is a good solid Transformers book, and I'm enjoying it and the storyline. That doesn't mean I approve of every element of the book, and my major gripe is how Prowl is being turned into a brutal, fascist thug.

Okay, so you do enjoy the story and think it’s good, so let me ask another way: How would you have Barber write this same good, solid, interesting, enjoyable storyline without writing Prowl as the character he has? It would be a completely different story otherwise.

Maybe I’m just overthinking this whole thing somewhere? I jus’ don’ geddit.

[andersonh1]

Before I get into any point by point, I understand where you're coming from much better after your last post, so thanks for sticking it out.

Okay, I never said I ‘approve’ of Prowl’s actions. Far from it, I agree that he’s being a self-justifying, uncompromising thug. He’s clearly being painted as a ‘bad guy’ in this story, and I don’t condone the path he’s taken at all. Where you got that I agree with his fascist, intimidating policies I’m not sure, but know that I definitely don’t.

I had taken your defense of his treatment as a character as liking what he's doing, honestly. We probably aren't that far apart in how we view the series then, but while I'm getting annoyed by Prowl's descent, you're enjoying it for the type of story it's allowing Barber to tell. Does that seem like a fair summation?

So it’s like…do you think that Barber *wants* us to ‘root for’ Prowl? Because again, I’m pretty sure we aren’t. Every time Prowl (or Arcee, for that matter) callously (seemingly) offed a Decepticon under the guise of their policing, it was played up as the morally wrong, line-crossing act that it was. I never got the impression that we were supposed to be going “Yeah Prowl! You assassinate those Decepticon Refugees for your own political gain! You da man!” and if you did, maybe I’ve been reading the book wrong this whole time.

In this day and age of the anti-hero, it's hard to tell what Barber intends, though I can't say I've really thought about the series overall and what Barber intended to say. I'll have to reserve judgment on what he intends vis a vis Prowl until the storyline ends. I think that will tell the tale. If Prowl takes a fall, then we'll have a character story of doing all the wrong things for a (possibly) good reason. If Prowl is a hero and comes out on top, then that will tell us a lot about what Barber intends. But right now, I don't know.

Or…you say that you do enjoy the story, and you do find it interesting, so surely you recognize that the story wouldn’t be remotely in the same enjoyable, interesting place it is without Prowl acting the way he has, right? This is the part I think I’m not fully understanding: Are you mad at the writer of the story, or are you actually mad at the character himself for acting a certain way?

I'm not mad about anything. I'm guessing that if I had discussed Prowl's actions in context of the story rather than just singling him out as the element that jumped out at me the most that we might not even be having this discussion. Because you're right that it would certainly be a different book if he was acting differently.

I don’t ‘like’ Prowl as a person, but I am enjoying his story arc as a character, because I recognize that it’s vital and well-integrated to the plot that Barber is writing, that it works with what he’s trying to say as an author, and that it makes perfect sense as a logical progression of Prowl’s character.

And I'm not enjoying it the way he's written, because I'd rather see Prowl acting differently. I guess I'm enjoying the rest of the book despite his character arc.

I said a while back that I couldn’t wait for the ‘fall’ of Prowl’s arc. I think it’s going to be a fantastic conclusion to something IDW’s been building on well for some time now, and should be a grand finale for the character.

I had forgotten about that. That might have cleared things up sooner if I"d remembered.

The difference between us on wanting to see Prowl ‘fall’, it seems, is that I want it because I’ve enjoyed his arc so far and expect the end of it to be suitably well-done, while you want him to ‘fall’ because you don’t like him as a character anymore and don’t like where his arc has led him, even though you…also say you recognize that said arc is the driving force of this story and admit that you find it enjoyable and interesting? (ARGH, THIS IS THE PART THAT I AM HAVING TROUBLE WITH)

It's the overall book I'm enjoying, not Prowl's part in it. Is it really the driving arc of the story though? It's one of them, certainly, and it's foremost in the last few issues, but there are a lot of other things going on. A lot of things happen independently of Prowl and his crusade.

Okay, so you do enjoy the story and think it’s good, so let me ask another way: How would you have Barber write this same good, solid, interesting, enjoyable storyline without writing Prowl as the character he has? It would be a completely different story otherwise.

Maybe I’m just overthinking this whole thing somewhere? I jus’ don’ geddit.

It would be a different book, and maybe it would be just as good. There's no way to know.

[andersonh1]

Just to stir the pot a bit more, the other character that really rubs me the wrong way is Arcee. How exactly is she able to kill anyone she feels like and always walk away unscathed? She's getting dangerously close to being an infallible, boringly unstoppable plot device rather than a character. All those deadly Decepticons, and none of them even successfully fought back? Really?

Of course, since some of the deaths were now clearly faked, I may have to change my tune once more story is revealed.

[Onslaught Six]

Just to stir the pot a bit more, the other character that really rubs me the wrong way is Arcee. How exactly is she able to kill anyone she feels like and always walk away unscathed? She's getting dangerously close to being an infallible, boringly unstoppable plot device rather than a character. All those deadly Decepticons, and none of them even successfully fought back? Really?

Of course, since some of the deaths were now clearly faked, I may have to change my tune once more story is revealed.

Prowl is obviously doing political maneuvering to get her off the hook. Probably. I wouldn't be surprised to see Arcee go down as his accomplice.


It's one thing to like a character doing despicable things because you like to see characters do despicable things; it's another to like it because it causes drama and is interesting to watch. Prowl being a kind of "renegade Autobot" is interesting because we don't really see that happen, ever, but I don't think anybody is reading it and going, "Wow, I sure am glad Prowl is doing that!"

When Bane broke Batman and we got the Azrael Batman, very few people stood up and went, "Yeah, alright, Batman is finally killing people!" But it's interesting to see what happens when you do have someone with Batman's abilities and stature being a Bad Guy, and knowing that eventually Bruce will have to step in as Batman and give Azrael his comeuppance.

When Megatron does bad things, you expect it, and you expect Optimus Prime to show up and kick his ass. (It's part of why I never minded the pacing in All Hail Megatron; I knew Prime would get better eventually and have a massive showdown with Megs.) Because Megatron did bad things. Now Prowl is doing bad things, and it's clear that this can't last forever.

Of course, Barber could actually turn around and make Prowl get away with everything. If he did that, it could be even 'more' interesting because then we have to watch Prowl live with that. With the knowledge that he killed all those (mostly) innocent dudes to further his own cause. We already saw him send bright, young Autobots to their doom on Garrus-9 to get the data, and they pretty much hall died in the process. Prowl has to live with that, and that makes Prowl interesting to watch.

Condoning the 'writing' of a character a certain way and condoning their actual actions are kind of two different things. When the Constructicons kill a bunch of humans at the beginning of AHM, for example, I can think that's awesome, because it's something the Constructicons would do, and it was fun to watch, and I know that eventually the Constructicons will get the tar beaten out of them for it. Even if they don't by the end of AHM, they 'eventually' will. (And they eventually got all their heads asploded.) That doesn't mean that, if I were a Transformer, I would go and kill humans. If a bunch of alien construction robots showed up and killed a bunch of humans, I would probably be terrified. But they're fictional! They're elements in a story. So I'm down.

[BWprowl]

I had taken your defense of his treatment as a character as liking what he's doing, honestly. We probably aren't that far apart in how we view the series then, but while I'm getting annoyed by Prowl's descent, you're enjoying it for the type of story it's allowing Barber to tell. Does that seem like a fair summation?

I think I kinda get it now. Whereas I’ll happily watch a character self-destruct for the sake of a good, interesting story, you’re more apprehensive about it in terms what it ‘does’ to the character. I don’t fully understand it for reasons I think I’ll get into later, but I at least think I see where you’re coming from and what you’re trying to say now.

I'm not mad about anything. I'm guessing that if I had discussed Prowl's actions in context of the story rather than just singling him out as the element that jumped out at me the most that we might not even be having this discussion. Because you're right that it would certainly be a different book if he was acting differently.

Yeah, I think I was mainly thrown off by the way you seemed to be phrasing your distaste for Prowl’s actions as a critical complaint of the book, like that was an actual problem with the story, rather than just an element being applied to a character which you were distasteful of. It really comes down to how much you ‘enjoy’ seeing such things, I guess.

I really enjoy seeing a character like Prowl ‘fall’, go off the deep end, what have you. I find his jumping off the slippery slope of fascism and intimidating oppression to be fascinating, and don’t mind where it leaves him as a ‘character’ or as a ‘good guy’ because that characteristic sacrifice is what gives such a story most of its impact. You, on the other hand, seem to prefer not to see characters taken so far in terms of extreme development because you’re concerned about where it might leave them in future stories where their ‘past’ characterization would have been useful/entertaining to see again. I won’t miss Prowl, or the ‘old’ Prowl, once he’s inevitably gone or ‘fallen’ or whatever, because this arc we’ve gotten is so good that it was worth the loss. Whereas you would not mind seeing the ‘old’ Prowl back in more stories again.

I think another difference is how we view the factions in TF. To me, the factions are basically an anachronistic relic from the original toyline, a convenient way of separating characters that I feel is most useful when it’s subverted to show the philosophical spread of differences between characters on both ‘sides’. TF is primarily a war story, and war is never black and white, so seeing the characters as grey and how they blur those shades even within their own color-coded principles is very interesting to me. It’s one reason I tend to like ‘turncoat’ or faction-jumping characters (Dinobot, Tankorr, Armada Starscream and Wheeljack) so much. Opposed to this, you seem to see the factions as character elements unto themselves, preferring to see characters assign themselves to these teams, then have them demonstrate why their character merits them being assigned to a particular ‘side’, with any extreme dissent of such definition defeating the purpose of being defined by a faction alignment in the first place. In this case, I can see why Prowl’s actions would put you off, as it calls into question why the story would even bother asking what defines one as an ‘Autobot’ in the first place.

Personally, I still see Prowl’s Autobot alignment as a very key element of his characterization and actions in this story (everything he’s done has been to try to keep the Autobots as a faction and their ideals and successes together, no matter the cost to his own character) but can see why such a compromise wouldn’t work in your view (I get the impression that, at the very least, you think Prowl should have discarded his Autobot badge before he embarked on this crusade).

And I'm not enjoying it the way he's written, because I'd rather see Prowl acting differently. I guess I'm enjoying the rest of the book despite his character arc.

Again, is it like you don’t like seeing a character ‘used up’ (for lack of a better term) like this?

It's the overall book I'm enjoying, not Prowl's part in it. Is it really the driving arc of the story though? It's one of them, certainly, and it's foremost in the last few issues, but there are a lot of other things going on. A lot of things happen independently of Prowl and his crusade.

True, you’ve got stuff like Ironhide’s side-story and Bumblebee and Metalhawk’s collusion, but a lot of threads are converging on Prowl’s currently, especially with this latest issue.

And also, Prowl’s arc is definitely the most interesting story thread in this book, and we’d never get it without him going down this road. I find this far more interesting than I would any story about Prowl fixing everything the right way as a totally scrupulous ‘good guy’. Prowl as the antagonist/’bad guy’ is just immensely entertaining.

Just to stir the pot a bit more, the other character that really rubs me the wrong way is Arcee. How exactly is she able to kill anyone she feels like and always walk away unscathed? She's getting dangerously close to being an infallible, boringly unstoppable plot device rather than a character. All those deadly Decepticons, and none of them even successfully fought back? Really?

Of course, since some of the deaths were now clearly faked, I may have to change my tune once more story is revealed.

Well so far, the only major kills she’s gotten are against Ratbat (not only is he not the toughest Decepticon in the world, but she pretty cleanly ambushed him) and Sunstorm and that Predator guy (Skydive?), and who knows how ‘tough’ they were. So I don’t think she’s crossed over into unstoppable God-Mode territory just yet. Like you said, we’ll see.

[Shockwave]

I think what bugs me about the last panel with him just standing there side by side with the Decepticons is just how far can you push a character until it's just plain "out of character". You know, to the point where it's no longer believable that the character would do what they're doing. Now, I'm quite there yet, mostly because Prowl is basically the Autobot's version of Shockwave: Logical to a fault. Maybe this is just what he sees as the logical thing to do and it may bite him in the ass as a result. Even Spock once said that "Logic can be used to justify almost anything" and that seems to be the territory we're getting into here.

I think what might be bothering Anderson (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) is that characters are established as having a certain morality or a line that they absolutely would not cross and that to have that character cross that line makes the story no longer believable. And I think maybe he believes that Prowl has reached that point and crossed that line. Maybe it's a little more palletable to me having seen the slow progression from where he was in Infiltration to where he is now. It wasn't an overnight change so I see how the character has evolved into this.

[Dominic]

There's too much moral equivalency between the two sides. It sometimes feels like many of the main Autobot characters don't even aspire to higher moral standards any more. I'd rather see a character like Prowl aim high and fail, then get up and try again than see him or her just do one cold, brutal thing after another

Prowl arguably is aiming higher. "End the War. Keep the Peace." This is pretty obviously an example of the idea of becoming a monster while fighting them.

In real terms, we are getting *bood* comics. This gets back to what I said when Marvel killed off "Ultimates" Peter Parkers. I did not care that a character got killed because I was getting good comics. (I was only half joking when I said I would be willing to spend real blood to get comics that good.)

Similarly, if Morrison ever gets around to finishing "Multiversity", I am not going to get all bent out of shape over the Nazi Superman that we know will be in that book. The high concept Morrison has articulated for the character is pretty good. So, if we end up with a Superman that is holding up a Nazi regime, then so be it. That is a minor price to pay for good comics.

I can kinda see that, but one of the HUGE themes of this book is that Transformers don’t have ‘sides’ anymore in the traditional sense.

They still have sides, but the lines have been redrawn. On one side, you have guys like Starscream or Blurr who are happy to let the war end and get on with their lives. On the other, you have guys who cannot let the war end or simply cannot function on a civilized planet. And, there are guys like who want to be rid of the second group at any cost.

Because, I’ve certainly disliked characters in all different ways before. There are characters that I’ve hated because they were bad characters, poorly drawn and contributing nothing effective to the story. There are also ones that I disliked because the story clearly wanted me to dislike them, and see them get their comeuppance or what-have-you by the end, so I was effectively rooting ‘against’ them. There are also those guys I ‘love to hate’, where they’re such epic bastards and spectacular ‘bad guys’ that I’m just waiting to be blown away by the next insane act of villainy they reveal next.

Exactly.

I dislike Skids and Mudflap or the parents in the Bayformer movies because they are useless characters who contribute nothing to the plot. (In real life, the father would probably be a great neighbor. But, in the movies, his scenes tend to be pointless set-pieces.)

On the other hand, I love to hate the new recruits in "Last Stand of the Wreckers". (No joke. I actually got an erection when Overlord killed Rotorstorm. It was just that rewarding.) They are written to be obnoxious, despite being Autobots. They are "fan identification" characters. But, they served a purpose in the story.

In this day and age of the anti-hero, it's hard to tell what Barber intends, though I can't say I've really thought about the series overall and what Barber intended to say. I'll have to reserve judgment on what he intends vis a vis Prowl until the storyline ends. I think that will tell the tale. If Prowl takes a fall, then we'll have a character story of doing all the wrong things for a (possibly) good reason. If Prowl is a hero and comes out on top, then that will tell us a lot about what Barber intends. But right now, I don't know.

Barber could also be saying "Prowl's tactics are effective". Or, that "the consequences for those actions will not fall on those responsible...."

Barber is not playing Prowl up as admirable. Over the course of the series, Prowl's actions have gotten more extreme. Killing the odd Decepticon is one thing. But, creating a situation that would result in riots (and the related death/destruction) is another thing entirely.

Just to stir the pot a bit more, the other character that really rubs me the wrong way is Arcee. How exactly is she able to kill anyone she feels like and always walk away unscathed?

I figured that she had the element of suprise and access to the best gear.


Dom
-will be very annoyed if this does not stick.

[BWprowl]

Prowl arguably is aiming higher. "End the War. Keep the Peace." This is pretty obviously an example of the idea of becoming a monster while fighting them.

This happens to be one of my favorite plot-concepts of all time, by the way, so it’s no surprise I’m loving this.

(I was only half joking when I said I would be willing to spend real blood to get comics that good.)

Newspaper comic strip ‘BC’ became decent just after original-creator John Hart died. Just sayin’.

On the other hand, I love to hate the new recruits in "Last Stand of the Wreckers". (No joke. I actually got an erection when Overlord killed Rotorstorm. It was just that rewarding.)

And rising triumphantly to the top of the ‘Things I really really REALLY did not need to know’ list…

Seriously, it’s kinda funny though, since Roberts and Roche intended Rotorstorm and crew to be ‘likeable’, so that the audience would be more shocked/surprised when they were so casually offed. But your personality and how you perceive characters caused you to view them as the complete opposite, and you took something different away from the story (or at least the part where the funny, likeable, relatable characters were callously sacrificed for the cold, pragmatic, bureaucrat’s ‘greater good’ ideals). Inneresting!

Dom
-will be very annoyed if this does not stick.

Oh man, I can see it now. Next issue, Prowl grins, goes “Joke’s on them I was just pretending” and proceeds to beat up all the Decepticons in the room and exile them to Kaon. He takes off all that armor to reveal his G1 cartoon animation model underneath, and the NAILs are so inspired by his heroism that they all convert to Autobots, taking the names of G1 characters. Then Optimus Prime comes back, and he brought fresh-baked cookies for everyone! YAAY!!

The fans hold a parade in Barber’s honor. Comic of the year.