Comics are Awesome III

[Sparky Prime]

Any ongoing narrative is going to develop baggage over time, which again is where I think the Ultimates books serve as a good example: Set a finite life to it. They just ended the Ultimates books after about 15 years and I think that's a good stopping point.

Marvel never set a finite life to the Ultimate comics though... The brand had been on the decline ever since the "Ultimatum" storyline. And as no one other than Bendis seemed to get the Ultimate universe at that point, only Ultimate Spider-Man remained it's big seller, eventually becoming the only remaining title. Not really any point to keep the brand going if it's only got one book left to it. But had the brand remained a strong seller, you can bet Marvel wouldn't have ended it.

And even then, Marvel didn't end Ultimate completely. A few Ultimate characters are still going, having been transferred to the 616 universe following Secret Wars.

All Star is a similarly good idea utilizing "universal" versions of the characters (I like that description, it fits better than "iconic"). They could have had those as separate ongoings as well.

I wouldn't call the All Star books "universal" versions of the characters... Again, All Star Superman was very much based on the Golden Age Superman. And, well once you read it you'll see why it couldn't have been an ongoing. And Batman... I have no idea what Miller was going for with that Batman.

Yeah, the movies could be seen as ads for the comics, but I don't see that actually happening. It's not like the end of the movie has a shot that says "hey, you just watched this, now read the story that inspired it". That alone would probably boost sales a lot.

Why would they have to tell people anything directly like that? It's not exactly a secret the movies are based on comic books... I mean, it's like how the Transformers cartoons work as toy commercials. You see the characters, you enjoy the stories, you find more about them. Not to mention, Free Comic Book Day was created to coincide with the release of the first Spider-Man movie, and has generally been around the same time as a major comic book film release ever since.

[Shockwave]

Any ongoing narrative is going to develop baggage over time, which again is where I think the Ultimates books serve as a good example: Set a finite life to it. They just ended the Ultimates books after about 15 years and I think that's a good stopping point.

Marvel never set a finite life to the Ultimate comics though... The brand had been on the decline ever since the "Ultimatum" storyline. And as no one other than Bendis seemed to get the Ultimate universe at that point, only Ultimate Spider-Man remained it's big seller, eventually becoming the only remaining title. Not really any point to keep the brand going if it's only got one book left to it. But had the brand remained a strong seller, you can bet Marvel wouldn't have ended it.

And even then, Marvel didn't end Ultimate completely. A few Ultimate characters are still going, having been transferred to the 616 universe following Secret Wars.

All Star is a similarly good idea utilizing "universal" versions of the characters (I like that description, it fits better than "iconic"). They could have had those as separate ongoings as well.

I wouldn't call the All Star books "universal" versions of the characters... Again, All Star Superman was very much based on the Golden Age Superman. And, well once you read it you'll see why it couldn't have been an ongoing. And Batman... I have no idea what Miller was going for with that Batman.

Yeah, the movies could be seen as ads for the comics, but I don't see that actually happening. It's not like the end of the movie has a shot that says "hey, you just watched this, now read the story that inspired it". That alone would probably boost sales a lot.

Why would they have to tell people anything directly like that? It's not exactly a secret the movies are based on comic books... I mean, it's like how the Transformers cartoons work as toy commercials. You see the characters, you enjoy the stories, you find more about them. Not to mention, Free Comic Book Day was created to coincide with the release of the first Spider-Man movie, and has generally been around the same time as a major comic book film release ever since.

I know Marvel didn't set a specific sunset date for the Ultimate books, but I think the idea is a good one, especially with folding new characters into the 616. Companies could have an ongoing series of books that feature classic and well known characters to draw in new readers, run that about 10-15years, fold any new characters from that series into the existing books and then reboot it again. It would allow companies to continually draw in new readers while still giving existing fans what they want. I really don't see why it can't be both.

So, All Star Superman. Yeah, I see what you mean, you can't exactly have a book be an indefinitely ongoing title if the main character is dying. Also, apparently I've seen the animated version of this several times. So, yeah, I'm already about half way through the comic version, but I pretty much know what to expect. Still, without the dying thing, this could have been an ongoing. As for the last thing, my main point there is that it would probably help the comics industry in general if they did way more advertising. And if they sold in more places. Like grocery and convenience stores. And if they actually had the covers illustrate what happens in the books. I dunno, it just seems like they don't even bother advertising and they're only sold in comic shops and book stores (and even for books stores it's usually only trades).

[andersonh1]

Yeah, when I first started collecting, there were spinner racks in gas stations and drugstores, and in bookstores in the mall. They were definitely easier to find.

[Sparky Prime]

I know Marvel didn't set a specific sunset date for the Ultimate books, but I think the idea is a good one, especially with folding new characters into the 616. Companies could have an ongoing series of books that feature classic and well known characters to draw in new readers, run that about 10-15years, fold any new characters from that series into the existing books and then reboot it again. It would allow companies to continually draw in new readers while still giving existing fans what they want. I really don't see why it can't be both.

Doing both, drawing in new readers as well as keeping the appeal for the existing fans, is exactly what they should be doing. What they ended up doing with the Ultimate Universe I think they got lucky with it working out as well as it did for them. Marvel had somewhat of a similar idea back in the 90's with Hero's Reborn, where the Fantastic Four and some of the Avengers got rebooted in their own 'pocket dimension'. Only things didn't go as well for that, so it was not long before the characters were restored to the 616 universe.

Still, without the dying thing, this could have been an ongoing.

In a way it was, in the form of the Golden Age Superman.

As for the last thing, my main point there is that it would probably help the comics industry in general if they did way more advertising. And if they sold in more places. Like grocery and convenience stores. And if they actually had the covers illustrate what happens in the books. I dunno, it just seems like they don't even bother advertising and they're only sold in comic shops and book stores (and even for books stores it's usually only trades).

I remember seeing comics sold in grocery stores, although that was back in the 90's. In fact, I know it was 1996, because I remember seeing the "Web of Carnage" story arc there. It was the first time I'd seen Ben Reilly's version of the Spider-Man costume (not to mention Spider-Carnage...). These days I've been seeing comics sold at Barnes and Noble (not just trades) in the magazine section. I've also seen Toys R Us carry a few comic books, with a very small section in one of the action figure isles (oddly not the isle with the DC/Marvel toys). And Target's lately have this big comic book merchandise (although no actual comic books) section next to the movies/music department.

[Shockwave]

Soooo... I have comics to review! Non TF or He-Man comics this time.

Superior Spiderman: Oh man, I love this series. My first foray back into non TF comics and I was not disappointed. In fact, I'm downright inspired. I've decided that I'm going to start being a superior me. But, I love how this story ran through Doc Ock facing all aspects of Peter's life. His personal life, his professional life and even facing and defeating almost his entire rogues gallery. Kingpin and Green Goblin weren't totally defeated, but damn. This is a fun ride that kicks it into high gear at the start and doesn't stop till the end. It was fun, thoughtful, a lot of interesting ideas, especially in analyzing what makes a superhero "good", both in terms of effectiveness and intention. Highly recommend it if you haven't read it.

Superman Red Son: And the awesome continues. The ending of this one blew my mind. Seriously, I did not see that coming. And this is another one that looks at what makes a hero "good". Superman is well intentioned, wanting to save the whole world while simultaneously becoming the very thing it needs saving from.

All Star Superman: This is kind of a cheat since I'm technically only half way through the comic, but I've seen the animated movie several times and as far as I can tell, they seem to keep pretty close to the comic. So, yeah. I like this one. Not quite as mind blowing as the other two, but this is my idea of "Superman". He's got the classic costume and the story is interesting and the characters are pretty well developed. It's still a fun story while having a serious element to it. In my opinion, this is Superman done right. I highly recommend this one too and if you haven't seen the animated version, you should. The story and characters are kept intact, great animation and voice acting, it's a win all around.

So that's it so far. And uh, yeah. Seems to be going pretty well. Here's hoping I'll have more to contribute to this thread in the future. Oh and feel free to make recommendations for future reading. And to help you out with recommendations, I'd prefer to stay away from stories that "haven't happened" or got "etcha-sketched" out of existence by some stupid event. That's why on the DC side, I've so far stuck to things that are self contained one off stories.

Come to think of it, wasn't there a story or series of stories where Bruce Wayne franchised the cape and cowl? Like Batman, Inc or something? Was that any good? Or was that even a thing? Did I make that up? I'm not generally a Batman fan, but that sounded like it would be interesting. If it happened.

[Sparky Prime]

Come to think of it, wasn't there a story or series of stories where Bruce Wayne franchised the cape and cowl? Like Batman, Inc or something? Was that any good? Or was that even a thing? Did I make that up? I'm not generally a Batman fan, but that sounded like it would be interesting. If it happened.

Yeah, Batman Incorporated was a thing. Although to let you know, that wasn't really a one off, self contained story... It took place within continuity with the regular DC universe. But because Batman's story wasn't affected like other characters with the New 52, that was something that carried over, after taking a bit of a break.

[Dominic]

Soooo... I have comics to review! Non TF or He-Man comics this time.

Yeah, you are going to see why recent TF has not been cutting the mustard.

Superior Spiderman:

I am less than half-way through this right now. (About a third through volume 3. Still digesting, but I disagree with parts of Slott's premise here.)

Superman Red Son: And the awesome continues. The ending of this one blew my mind. Seriously, I did not see that coming. And this is another one that looks at what makes a hero "good". Superman is well intentioned, wanting to save the whole world while simultaneously becoming the very thing it needs saving from.

And, Luthor ends up creating the very definition of the moral hazard that he (correctly) said would doom humanity. Best Superman story ever.

Come to think of it, wasn't there a story or series of stories where Bruce Wayne franchised the cape and cowl? Like Batman, Inc or something? Was that any good? Or was that even a thing? Did I make that up? I'm not generally a Batman fan, but that sounded like it would be interesting. If it happened.

Read some of it. It was a good idea. But, it was not appropriate for a series like "Batman", which only allows for so much change. (There is no way that should have ended without the world making the connection between Wayne and Batman.)

make recommendations for future reading.

In no particular order....

"Batman: Gotham by Gaslight": The first, and still one of the best, "Elseworlds". Ignore DC's feeble attempts to rebrand it as part of a multiverse. Just read it. (Try to get a later edition, which will also have "Master of the Future".)

Gillen's "Iron Man" run (2012-2014): Truthfully, most of this probably should have been erased/forgotten. But, it stuck (passing your test). It is an idea-based story (focusing on technolgy and morality). If you only read part of it, go for "Fatal Frontier". Oh, and Death's Head shows up, complete with a TF reference or two.

Hickman's "New Avengers" (2013-15, "Secret Wars" lead in) and "Secret Wars": It fails the "gotta stick" test. But, this is an excellent run of comics that leads in to a damned good Doom/Reed story. (And, it is built not to stick.)

"Secret Wars" tie-ins: These are all self-contained, and most of them are pretty good. Favourites: "the Siege", "Renew Your Vows", "Squadron Sinister", "Armor Wars" and "1872".

"Final Crisis" and "Multiversity": Solid Morrison comics about comics. (Multiversity is better, if you only want one.)

Zenith: This is one of Morrison's first major projects, from the old "2000AD" series during the 80s. It is an interesting beta-test for ideas that Morrison has used over the decades.

Morrison's "Animal Man" run: Career defining. Set the groundwork for DC's "Vertigo" imprint.

Grant/Aparro "Batman" (80s-90s): Has aged better than other comics. Relatively short stories.

All New All Different Marvel: This covers most of my pull-list. "the Vision", "Red Wold", "Illuminati", "Squadron Supreme", "Hyperion" and (the upcoming) "Nighthawk".

[andersonh1]

Just seconding some of Dom's recommendations here that I've also read:

"Batman: Gotham by Gaslight": The first, and still one of the best, "Elseworlds". Ignore DC's feeble attempts to rebrand it as part of a multiverse. Just read it. (Try to get a later edition, which will also have "Master of the Future".)

Agreed, it's a strong use of the Elseworlds concept. The Gotham by Gaslight characters also appear in Convergence: Shazam.

"Final Crisis" and "Multiversity": Solid Morrison comics about comics. (Multiversity is better, if you only want one.)

Multiversity is the only one of the two I've read. It's an excellent series. Morrison isn't afraid to take some old Silver Age concepts and run with them to link all of his disparate stories together. The idea of characters in one universe reading comics which turn out to be real in another universe is straight out of the Flash comics of the 50s and 60s. He mined Batman's Silver Age past for his Batman run, and he mines DC's use of the multiverse for his Multiversity series. I appreciate the fact that he doesn't consider these concepts too silly to work with, as many writers would.

Morrison's "Animal Man" run: Career defining. Set the groundwork for DC's "Vertigo" imprint.

Grant/Aparro "Batman" (80s-90s): Has aged better than other comics. Relatively short stories.

Agreed on both, and I'd also recommend any Batman by Alan Grant and Norm Breyfogle, one of my favorite Batman artists. I think DC has just published a book of Breyfogle Batman stories, which I intend to pick up at some point.

[Dominic]

I mentally slot the Breyfogle stuff in under Grant/Aparro.

As for the compilation, I saw one that had a significant amount of Breyfogle art. But, I am not sure it was specifically "Breyfogle on Batman". (Worth looking for either way.)


Checked over previews today. No listing "Red Wolf" or "Illuminati", which pretty much confirms that both have no more than an issue or two left. I will miss "red Wolf" a little more. But, both are good series that are ending too soon.

At DC, there is an issue of "Earth 2" listed alongside all of the new number one's. But, the preview teases a reboot. And, there is a preview listing for a 13th and 14th issue for the fifth year of "Injustice". Not sure if they are extending year 5 a bit or if they are making it an ongoing. Not sure I am willing to take the ride for an ongoing.

[Shockwave]

Thanks for the suggestions, lots of great sounding stuff there. It should keep me pretty busy for a while. I also just started reading Thor: Goddess of Thunder. Apparently I need to read Thor: God of Thunder first since apparently this is the direct sequel to it. I have both, so I'll probably just start reading the other one before I continue with Goddess. So far, it's pretty interesting.