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Dominic wrote:DC has rebooted and reset before. Batman tends to come through reboots with very little changed, because Batman is Batman. (Even with the visual changes to the costume, Batman is fairly static.) Superman does not need the years of baggage and rainbow kryptonite. Superman needs to be an idea. (Morrison has consistently proven this.)

Sure DC has rebooted several times, but they've never done a hard reboot where they've completely erased all of their "baggage". There has always been several characters to come out of it pretty much unchanged. Batman I'd agree is one such character who always seems to go through reboots with little change, although I wouldn't exactly call him static either. The Batman of today is much more paranoid and secretive than the Batman of 30 years ago.

To use an example from Marvel, Iron Man is going to be an irresponsible man-child with mad tech skills for a while. Drunkeness is going to be a vague thing. None of those things were part of the initial character. But, over the years, they were added to the character, and they stuck. (The problem is that fans now cannot handle change. And, companies are afraid to changing anything with established characters.)

I dunno that Marvel really works as an example given they've really never rebooted their franchise like DC has... They use other methods.

Dominic wrote:DC has rebooted and reset before. Batman tends to come through reboots with very little changed, because Batman is Batman. (Even with the visual changes to the costume, Batman is fairly static.) Superman does not need the years of baggage and rainbow kryptonite. Superman needs to be an idea. (Morrison has consistently proven this.)

To use an example from Marvel, Iron Man is going to be an irresponsible man-child with mad tech skills for a while. Drunkeness is going to be a vague thing. None of those things were part of the initial character. But, over the years, they were added to the character, and they stuck. (The problem is that fans now cannot handle change. And, companies are afraid to changing anything with established characters.)

I don't think it's so much that fans can't accept change per se. I think it's sudden, arbitrary changes that are the problem. Organic changes over time often result in just what you've described with Iron Man: concepts that become a part of who a character is, even if that wasn't the case at the beginning, and many times fans are fine with that type of change. Sudden restarts like the New 52 are the type of things that give fans fits and drive them away from a book.

Rebirth solicitations from DC. Sparky, Green Lantern looks pretty good.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/artic ... lintstones

HAL JORDAN AND THE GREEN LANTERN CORPS: REBIRTH #1
Written by ROBERT VENDITTI
Art and cover by ETHAN VAN SCIVER
Variant cover by CARY NORD
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
Superstar artist Ethan Van Sciver returns to the world of Green Lantern! In the absence of the Green Lantern Corps, Sinestro and his fear-inducing Yellow Lantern Corps patrol the universe as its sole protectors -- but deep in space, a green light still burns. Harnessing the remainder of his will, Hal Jordan must become a one-man GL Corps to defeat his greatest foe and restore freedom to the cosmos.
On sale JULY 13 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T

HJFLC Cv1 R1HAL JORDAN AND THE GREEN LANTERN CORPS #1
Written by ROBERT VENDITTI
Art and cover by RAFA SANDOVAL and JORDI TARRAGONA
Variant cover by KEVIN NOWLAN
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
"SINESTRO'S LAW" Chapter One
With no backup and only his ring and battery to keep him alive, Hal Jordan streaks toward battle with the Sinestro Corps, while his greatest foe prepares to wipe the last Green Lantern of them all out of existence!
On sale JULY 27 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T

andersonh1 wrote:Rebirth solicitations from DC. Sparky, Green Lantern looks pretty good.

Yeah. Sucks that the Sinestro title is going away, but I'm glad that story line will be the first thing they cover in Green Lantern.

Dominic wrote:Not it ain't. Already talked about IDW (at length) in the IDW sub-forums. Short summary: The comics are not really about much, with the Barber series being like every generic comic, complete with dumb back-writes. I can get that, done better, from the big two.

"Rescue Bots" and "Robots in Disguise" are terrible. Simplified look. Simplified writing. ("Derp, derp derp. Grimlock is pretending to the a fixture in an amusement park.") Calling it a kiddie book does not give a pass on being junk.

Yeah, I know the deal with IDW. I still disagree, but that's another story. For Rescue Bots and RID, I'm referring to the shows, I haven't read many of the comics. The show though are generally good, at least as good as early seasons of MLP: FIM. Yeah, they each have a few cringe worthy episodes, but what show doesn't?

Superman: Lois & Clark #7
The usual flashback takes us back to the point where Lois' first book was published, and Superman throws a party for her. It's just the family, since Lois writes in secret, but she appreciates the thought. Flash forward, and she and Jonathan are about to burn to death because her investigative writing has exposed Intergang to the world, and they want her out of the way. Only Jonathan's powers have begun to manifest, and he's able to reach through the fire and grasp a red hot door handle without being burned or feeling pain, and help Lois escape. Intergang has left men outside the building to watch, and they shoot at Lois and Jonathan, only for Superman to pick them up at super speed and carry them off to safety as the fire in the building reaches some fuel drums, causing an explosion that kills the guards.

Superman had been delayed by the guy in armor, filming for a reality tv show. I had speculated that this would expose pre-Crisis Superman to the world since he's on television, but in addition to ripping the crook out of the power armor rather easily, he also melts not only the tv camera, but the truck with filming equipment as well. Superman reflects that with this type of reality tv, it's no wonder this Earth still feels so foreign to him.

With everyone safe, and the secret out, Jonathan is pretty upset that he's been lied to. Superman and Lois finally explain just who they are and where they come from, and they believe their universe no longer exists, which may or may not fit with Convergence. They explain how they have kept a low profile while doing what they always used to do, which is to help whoever they can. Lois does that by her reporting, and Clark as Superman. And then Superman gets a sudden vision of death and destruction, which is clearly tied to Hyanthis and the Oblivion Stone. She gets it from Hank Henshaw, only to find that he only had part of it, and the rest turns out to be in the Fortress. Looks like next issue will wrap all of this up, leading into Rebirth.

I hope Action Comics will be this good when these characters start appearing there, written by Jurgens. This has been an excellent series, and I'm glad to see this Superman, Lois and Jonathan will continue to have stories told about them going forward. I like the family dynamic with the three of them, and I like that this moves the character's story forward in life. And now he'll end up taking New 52 Superman's place, though we don't know the circumstances yet. I'll almost be sorry to see this series end, since the concept of these three people living in isolation on a very different Earth is a strong one.

Sparky Prime wrote:

And we all know what those are and what I was referring to when I said "iconic". So I am genuinely vexed as to why you would try illustrating that what comic fans regard as an iconic version of a character is in a discussion specifically talking about people who don't fit into that demographic? Seriously, did you really not understand that context? Somewhere there was a disconnect between what I posted and what you got out of it and I really am interested to know where that disconnect happened. Or do you really just enjoy debating the technical definition of iconic? I - I dunno. I just feel like this shouldn't be up for debate.

Yeah, I know what you were referring to when you said "iconic", I understood the context just fine, and I'm not debating the definition of iconic. The point I'm making is if you want to reboot the entire line and just use the "iconic" versions of the characters, it wouldn't be so simple as you make it out to be. You can't just focus on non-comic book fans as a means to attract new customers. You'd be alienating a lot of the current customers, the comic book fans that make up the majority of the business. And if that plan failed to attract new customers, where would they be? Nor can you just dump all of the characters "baggage" and expect them to be the same "iconic" characters. Not to mention, once again, different people would have different ideas as to what the more "iconic" characters are.

As for Superman vs. Man of Steel, Superman has a happy fun upbeat and adventurous feel to it. Man of Steel feels dark, depressing and fearful. And I don't wanna feel that way after watching Superman.

I didn't find Man of Steel depressing or fearful at all. Certainly it was darker than the 1978 film, but at least it wasn't so campy, and Superman actually got to fight someone.

Yeah I get your point, but again, it has nothing to do with mine. Yeah, I can just focus on non comic fans because that was the whole point: What marvel and DC could do to get the legions of people who are fans of their characters and not reading comics to start reading comics. That premise specifically eliminates consideration for existing readers because, well, they don't need to figure out how to get your money, they already have it. And from what I've seen in this thread (yes, I still read the thread even if I don't contribute much) you people will put up with just about anything from these guys and still keep coming back. And I can't help thinking that Marvel and DC know that. And yeah, they can dump the baggage and keep the characters because it's been done before. DC did it with their All Star series and Marvel with their Ultimates books. And I can tell you that at least one of those worked on me at the time (Ultimates). Yeah, the baggage is a barrier to new readers, if the big two want to draw in the non reading fans of their characters, they need to address it. If youtubers like MovieBob and Linkara are to be believed, it's the #1 thing stopping them. Both have said in videos that the number 1 question they get from non reading fans is "Where do I start?" and honestly, just responding with "where ever you want" isn't a viable solution. Most people are going to want a starting point and feel like after the nearly 8 decades of back story that it's impossible. We only see this huge picture that we'll never see all of and it's daunting and intimidating. And Just telling us to start where we want... well how the hell is a non reading fan going to know that? We hear that, look again at the baggage and say "fuck it, I'll play video games instead". Starting over with these characters would be a good way to get new readers on board. I know, because I was one of those readers and it worked for me. I really enjoyed Ultimates. Getting in on the starting point with a new stories featuring characters I'm already familiar with? Yeah, I was on board for that. Same thing with DC's All Star books. Superman is my favorite super hero and last week I just bought the All Star Superman trade.

The real thing that comic book companies need to do is to advertise somewhere other than their own comics. Seriously, it's no wonder their sales are so low. Could you imagine if other industries ran this way? Imagine if Nintendo could only advertise other Nintendo games in their own Nintendo games. That would be absurd. And yet, that's exactly what comic companies do.

TL: DR: If the big two want their non comic reading fans to start reading, the need to 1: Dump the baggage, 2: keep the characters 3: Advertise everywhere possible. Check, check, and check, hat trick, everyone wins.

Also, if you liked Man of Steel, more power to you. I hated it. They basically turned him into Batman from the Dark Knight trilogy and that's not what I want from my Superman movie. I want it to be happy and upbeat and fun. And this was none of those.

Shockwave wrote:Yeah I get your point, but again, it has nothing to do with mine. Yeah, I can just focus on non comic fans because that was the whole point: What marvel and DC could do to get the legions of people who are fans of their characters and not reading comics to start reading comics.

I don't think you do get my point if you think it has nothing to do with yours. Focusing just on the non-comic book fans in order to get new readers nice idea, but as I keep telling you, it wouldn't be so simple as you make it out to be and just as easily could do the exact opposite, failing to attract any new readers while driving away current readers.

That premise specifically eliminates consideration for existing readers because, well, they don't need to figure out how to get your money, they already have it. And from what I've seen in this thread (yes, I still read the thread even if I don't contribute much) you people will put up with just about anything from these guys and still keep coming back. And I can't help thinking that Marvel and DC know that.

I stopped reading Spider-Man after OMD because I hated what it did to the character. Andersonh1 stopped reading Superman with the New52 because he hated what it did to the character. So no, that premise doesn't eliminate consideration for the existing readers at all. Some fans might be willing to put up with a lot, but they'll still drop a title if they really don't like what's going on with it. And seeing how DC's sales have been dropping fairly steadily over the past couple of years, it looks like a lot of fans haven't been sticking to the New52 books...

And yeah, they can dump the baggage and keep the characters because it's been done before. DC did it with their All Star series and Marvel with their Ultimates books. And I can tell you that at least one of those worked on me at the time (Ultimates).

The All Stars and Ultimate titles is not the same thing at all. The original idea behind the Ultimate titles wasn't to dump the baggage for the characters, it was to update them in a more modern day setting. Often times, that resulted in some very, VERY different versions of the characters compared to their more "iconic" 616 counterparts. They weren't bound to the "iconic" versions at all. And the All Star titles... Did you ever read any of the All Star Batman and Robin series? That book came off as more of a parody of the characters (the whole "What, are you dense? Are you retarded or something? Who the hell do you think I am? I'm the Goddamn Batman!" thing for example). And All Star Superman was very much based on the Golden Age Superman, while most modern day fans (who read comics or not) would probably be familiar with the post-Crisis version of the character.

Yeah, the baggage is a barrier to new readers, if the big two want to draw in the non reading fans of their characters, they need to address it. If youtubers like MovieBob and Linkara are to be believed, it's the #1 thing stopping them. Both have said in videos that the number 1 question they get from non reading fans is "Where do I start?" and honestly, just responding with "where ever you want" isn't a viable solution. Most people are going to want a starting point and feel like after the nearly 8 decades of back story that it's impossible. We only see this huge picture that we'll never see all of and it's daunting and intimidating.

I'd agree all that history can seem daunting to new readers... At first. I remember having a similar feeling about DC before I read any of their comics. But that is exactly why DC periodically does it's Crisis-events, allowing them to simplify and condense the history for new readers. Not to mention, both Marvel and DC are pretty good about covering what ever history they need to for any given story. I can't think of any books on the shelves you'd need to go back decades for. So much of that isn't relevant to today's stories, or in the rare event it is, they'll explain it. Sometimes all you really need to do is just jump into it. The first Green Lantern book I bought was the Sinestro Corps War. And sure, there was a ton of characters and history I didn't get, but it wasn't necessary to enjoy the story either. I didn't need a #1 to get into it (not that I think that'd actually change anything with how common new #1's are these days). And now that I am so much more familiar with the characters and all, it only enhances my enjoyment of that story.

The real thing that comic book companies need to do is to advertise somewhere other than their own comics. Seriously, it's no wonder their sales are so low. Could you imagine if other industries ran this way? Imagine if Nintendo could only advertise other Nintendo games in their own Nintendo games. That would be absurd. And yet, that's exactly what comic companies do.

I wouldn't say comics is the only place they advertise comics, with how popular the super hero film industry has been and all.

TL: DR: If the big two want their non comic reading fans to start reading, the need to 1: Dump the baggage, 2: keep the characters 3: Advertise everywhere possible. Check, check, and check, hat trick, everyone wins

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It'd be nice if it was all that easy and simple, but honestly, it's not. Again, dumping the baggage isn't a solution. It's been a part of the problem in the industry with so many characters prevented from developing, or having significant developments stripped from them in an effort to make them seem young and interesting to new readers (which we've seen doesn't necessarily work to actually bring in or keep said new readers) while alienating their current readers. Keeping the characters... hasn't been a problem. If anything bringing back dead characters is. And I would have to say I see comic book characters being more popular than ever. That doesn't necessarily equate to comic book sales however.

Also, if you liked Man of Steel, more power to you. I hated it. They basically turned him into Batman from the Dark Knight trilogy and that's not what I want from my Superman movie. I want it to be happy and upbeat and fun. And this was none of those.

Too bad you didn't like it, but Man of Steel wasn't all dark and grim like you make it out to be either is all I'm saying.

And I can't help thinking that Marvel and DC know that. And yeah, they can dump the baggage and keep the characters because it's been done before. DC did it with their All Star series and Marvel with their Ultimates books. And I can tell you that at least one of those worked on me at the time (Ultimates).

"Ultimates" and "All Star" were different scenarios.

"All Star" was meant to be self-contained stories using the closest to "universal" variants of characters. "Ultimates" was supposed to be a new, ongoing, thing. And, over time, "Ulitmates" picked up baggage over the course of 15 years or so. "Ultimates" was a different thing when it ended in 2015 than it was when it launched in 2000.

If youtubers like MovieBob and Linkara are to be believed, it's the #1 thing stopping them. Both have said in videos that the number 1 question they get from non reading fans is "Where do I start?" and honestly, just responding with "where ever you want" isn't a viable solution.

The best starting point is when the creative team changes or there is some other shift in direction.

The real thing that comic book companies need to do is to advertise somewhere other than their own comics. Seriously, it's no wonder their sales are so low. Could you imagine if other industries ran this way? Imagine if Nintendo could only advertise other Nintendo games in their own Nintendo games. That would be absurd. And yet, that's exactly what comic companies do.

The problem is that marketing now tends to rely on word of mouth and such. And, comic fans tend to suck at that. "I like Spider-Man because Spider-Man is awesome and that is why I like Spider-Man." Comics tend to do well as compilations when they are sold outside of comic shops.

That premise specifically eliminates consideration for existing readers because, well, they don't need to figure out how to get your money, they already have it. And from what I've seen in this thread (yes, I still read the thread even if I don't contribute much) you people will put up with just about anything from these guys and still keep coming back. And I can't help thinking that Marvel and DC know that.

DC lost readers in 2011. They replaced then with new readers. But, the real gain (higher total readers) was minimal after the novelty effect wore off.
I personally know somebody who has cut back on Marvel post-"Secret Wars" because new stuff is bad.

Fans will pitch fits. You know this. They will stick around on boards. They will go to conventions. But, they will pitch fits and pout when something changes. (The stereotypes about fans who cannot get the fuck over something have some truth to them.) There are fans who think that Marvel characters should keep Cold War era baggage. (Think about that for a second. COLD WAR ERA BAGGAGE.) "Infinity Gauntlet" is sacrosant, despite the fact that it nullifies itself at the end.

Alienating established readers is dangerous because those fans need to be replaced in higher numbers. (At the local comic shop, DC gained nothing in 2011. Their sales were about the same after "Flashpoint" as before. The readers were different people, but they bought roughly the same number of comics. In other words, DC went through an awful lot of trouble to gain nothing.

I think Marvel had the right idea with Ultimates. To create a new ongoing that people could get in on and still have the existing stuff there for the older fans as it's own separate other thing. Any ongoing narrative is going to develop baggage over time, which again is where I think the Ultimates books serve as a good example: Set a finite life to it. They just ended the Ultimates books after about 15 years and I think that's a good stopping point. Now they can start something else new. All Star is a similarly good idea utilizing "universal" versions of the characters (I like that description, it fits better than "iconic"). They could have had those as separate ongoings as well.

The main problem with what has been tried is execution. I'm gonna answer Sparky's question here, no I have not read the All Star books. I just bought the Superman trade last week and will probably start reading it sometime in the next few days. I've seen enough of Linkara's reviews of Batman and Robin to know that the insane ramblings of Frank Miller are generally to be avoided. And I think that's the lesson DC learned with that one: If you wanna do a book that appeals to a broader fan base, you don't get Frank Miller to write it. These ideas can work, but they also require good writing and art to carry the stories and the characters.

Yeah, the movies could be seen as ads for the comics, but I don't see that actually happening. It's not like the end of the movie has a shot that says "hey, you just watched this, now read the story that inspired it". That alone would probably boost sales a lot.

Break is over, more thoughts later.

Ok, last break: About the fanrage. Yeah, people will complain. But, there will always be someone complaining. There's no way to avoid that. And is the number of fans complaining really that high? I'd wager not. Besides, look at what's happened here. Sure Anderson bowed out of New 52, but he was still buying comics and he was still buying and reading DC comics. So DC still had his business, just from different books. All that shows is that existing readers will just find other stuff to read if they don't like the current books. Again, you guys will basically put up with anything. Dom, you'll have a better gauge of this than I would: How many fans are actually wanting Marvel to bring back the Cold War Era baggage? Is it legions of them or was it just one guy on one thread somewhere? I'm willing to bet the later. I genuinely could be wrong since here and TFW are the only forums I post on. I dunno, I just have yet to actually see the "alienating" happen.